Bandido buff?

[Azahul]

Just now, Autumn King said:

I think more durability for the cost of the knife and At gunpoint could be a fair trade, if it were for hit points. I feel increasing DF would not be fitting.

I'd look at a rule. Hit points above cost is unusual and usually reserved for undead. 

Bultungin for example gained Hard to Kill in the last errata, which took them into the realm where people actually seem to be considering them. Personally I think Hard to Kill is pretty lazy as a solution to the "Cost 5 models getting one-shot" issue, but... it is actually pretty common in Bandits so it would be appropriate. I could see Stealth or Disguised working too. Favourable Terrain crossed my mind but it's probably too niche to do the job (as good as ignoring Severe terrain would be).

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

The problem with laying the blame there is that in last edition you typically had a greater range where you could make 2 attacks on an opponent than you do this edition ( the range for 1 attack has increased, but 1 attack without focus typically does not kill a cheap model). 

Last edition you probably had the ability to make 2 attacks at about 9" away. This edition a  similar model can make 2 attacks at 6" and 1 attack at 11". 

But that was your whole activation and if you were slow or half an inch out you were screwed and focus didn't persist. Now if you've got a Focus stack you can easily gank a minion on a walk+charge.

I think (and yes, broken record) the issue is the scoring format. The advantage to taking cheap AP is you get more of it in the first couple turns. Unfortunately the most important time to have an AP advantage is turn 5 and your cheap minions aren't making a big difference either way to your T5 position. Change the EoG point on schemes to be "at the end of any turn after this scheme was revealed" and we're having a very different conversation. Also some rewriting of schemes to allow for a wider scoring window than "I control bottom of turn activations and held onto my efficient scoring pieces, they activate and print me points."

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

I think the change to scoring has the highest likelihood to help lower cost minions. I’d like to see most/all reveals being scored end of activation (but needing 2+ activations for pure marker ones) along with the EoG scoring to transition to EoT (still only scoring 1 per turn). 

[Zebo]

Change Drop It to make you control the placement of the marker. 

Add to At Gun Point "If the opponent discards a card, this model may draw a card"

Survivability is overrated xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 hours ago, Adran said:

The problem with laying the blame there is that in last edition you typically had a greater range where you could make 2 attacks on an opponent than you do this edition ( the range for 1 attack has increased, but 1 attack without focus typically does not kill a cheap model). 

Last edition you probably had the ability to make 2 attacks at about 9" away. This edition a  similar model can make 2 attacks at 6" and 1 attack at 11". 

I didn't play last edition so could certainly be wrong, but this edition quite regularly I'll see a model 30 inches away and go "I'm gonna kill that."

Agree with the above that the scoring structure is an even bigger deal.

[Azahul]

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

Change Drop It to make you control the placement of the marker. 

Add to At Gun Point "If the opponent discards a card, this model may draw a card"

Survivability is overrated xD

I agree that changing Drop It would probably be ideal, but it's on like a dozen cards across half the factions in the game. I don't think they've ever made such a sweeping change. Changing the Bandidos and Parker2 so that they don't need LOS to the marker just seems logistically more likely to me.

[Avatar of Butter]

On 6/29/2022 at 4:27 PM, Azahul said:

If you want a fast, squishy schemer, doesn't Plague have a faster flying option in the Winged Plague that does that role better?

I'm... not sure that I'd say that the Winged Plague does the scheme running role better. While I agree that the Bandito is squishy, Def 4/4 wounds is on a whole other level of easy to kill. There are a whole lot more models with 4 damage mid/severe damage tracks than 5. Plus, although you can't count on it, the fact that the Bandito does have a way to push out of combat with tar pits is another thing that it has over the Winged Plague. Plus, it has a gun and Run and Gun is a pretty useful rule, and access to fast on critical turns.

The Winged Plague's biggest advantage is that it has the Vermin keyword, and that translates into more scheme markers in the back line using Unclean Influence. Honestly, neither of them are very compelling models.

[Azahul]

4 hours ago, Avatar of Butter said:

I'm... not sure that I'd say that the Winged Plague does the scheme running role better. While I agree that the Bandito is squishy, Def 4/4 wounds is on a whole other level of easy to kill. There are a whole lot more models with 4 damage mid/severe damage tracks than 5. Plus, although you can't count on it, the fact that the Bandito does have a way to push out of combat with tar pits is another thing that it has over the Winged Plague. Plus, it has a gun and Run and Gun is a pretty useful rule, and access to fast on critical turns.

The Winged Plague's biggest advantage is that it has the Vermin keyword, and that translates into more scheme markers in the back line using Unclean Influence. Honestly, neither of them are very compelling models.

I tend to just assume that with models that squishy the opponent will kill them if they attack them. If they get unlucky then the Winged Plague at least has two ways to get out of melee without a disengage.

But if they each get their ideal situation and avoid getting attacked, the Winged Plague is a faster model, is Size 1 so avoiding getting targeted is easier, and can hang out in the backlines in safety longer because Unclean Influence can catapult is an extra 8" forward for late turn scheming.

[ShinChan]

On 6/30/2022 at 6:29 AM, Autumn King said:

I think more durability for the cost of the knife and At gunpoint could be a fair trade, if it were for hit points. I feel increasing DF would not be fitting.

At Gunpoint is such a useless ability that it doesn't even count. Bandidos are terrible models, no matter how much you try to justify with very corner case scenarios that happen in one of 20 games.

 

On 6/30/2022 at 2:59 AM, Adran said:

( my personal feelings are that when they were playtested they were generally hired in at least pairs, but the game understanding evolved so that soon after release people started playing in a way that made cheap models much less viable to pick than they had seemed during the testing, so lots of cheap models aren't chosen now. I'm largely laying the blame on focus...). 

It's not Focus' fault. In M2E you were either playing super-lethal stuff or a lot of models since pass tokens were not a thing, so they would give you activation control. Focus is not a problem, it was not a big issue even when it could be stacked infinitely. The real "problem" is that is easy to get activation control by killing a cheap model. Every competitive player agrees with that and has been said many times. So let's not keep messing with focus and address the real issue for low cost models with very little or no defensive tech: activation control. 

The fix is could be as simple as giving the owner of the model that dies a pass token if the model hasn't activated that turn.

[trikk]

20 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

The fix is could be as simple as giving the owner of the model that dies a pass token if the model hasn't activated that turn.

I initially don't like the fix. I would just prefer for 4-6SS models to require more effort to kill

[Zebo]

On 6/30/2022 at 11:03 PM, Azahul said:

I agree that changing Drop It would probably be ideal, but it's on like a dozen cards across half the factions in the game. I don't think they've ever made such a sweeping change. Changing the Bandidos and Parker2 so that they don't need LOS to the marker just seems logistically more likely to me.

I agree with doubting Wyrd change Drop It, but... 

Yes, it would mean to change a lot of cards across the game. 

So what? 

I doubt Wyrd spends a lot of resources/money on that. 

I'm quite sure players would LOVE to change a lot of cards to make Drop It work. 

 

Drop It problem is not only "we cannot exploit our shenanigans". Is "we could be perfectly helping our enemy to score/deny our score". It's simply stupid. 

[Azahul]

7 minutes ago, Zebo said:

I agree with doubting Wyrd change Drop It, but... 

Yes, it would mean to change a lot of cards across the game. 

So what? 

I doubt Wyrd spends a lot of resources/money on that. 

I'm quite sure players would LOVE to change a lot of cards to make Drop It work. 

 

Drop It problem is not only "we cannot exploit our shenanigans". Is "we could be perfectly helping our enemy to score/deny our score". It's simply stupid. 

I think there's a general desire to keep errata on the minimal side, just based on observed behaviour. Presumably the intent is to reduce the total number of cards changed based on their print version more for simplicity's sake than expense. It's awkward for players when your models ship with cards in boxes that don't match their current status, for example.

I know in competitive circles that such seemingly minor logistical problems don't get seen as a big deal, and I'm not even going to argue that they are per se, merely that it looks to me that Wyrd leans in that direction. Which makes Drop It changes unlikely, compared to changing Parker2 or the Bandidos directly.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just look at lucid dream, an ability on only 5 models and they still just changed original dreamers card xD

[admiralvorkraft]

5 hours ago, trikk said:

I initially don't like the fix. I would just prefer for 4-6SS models to require more effort to kill

I also don't like that fix. I think the best fix is the hardest one, which is to restructure schemes to reward more starting AP so there's a meaningful trade-off to consider when hiring, and also change some of the scoring conditions to make controlling the bottom of turn less of a binary win-con.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

7 hours ago, ShinChan said:

 The real "problem" is that is easy to get activation control by killing a cheap model. Every competitive player agrees with that and has been said many times. So let's not keep messing with focus and address the real issue for low cost models with very little or no defensive tech: activation control. 

The fix is could be as simple as giving the owner of the model that dies a pass token if the model hasn't activated that turn.

Why are cheap models so easy to kill? Focus. Better to address a root cause than a symptom of the root cause, ie ease of activation control.

Activation Control should be addressed in a more holistic manner rather than as a band-aid to separate problem.

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

They could always just give Bandidos a slightly unique version of drop it with a special name.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Brilliance Laced Whiskey said:

They could always just give Bandidos a slightly unique version of drop it with a special name.

That wouldn't help them much, they will get trigger finger from their own drop it, it's the rest of the crew they want it from. 

[James Dyson]

There's a couple of really interesting ideas in this thread so far.

On one hand, I like the idea of maintaining the I-Go/You-Go order of 3E with rewarding a pass token when a model dies before activating.  It's already calculated during start of turn, and losing the ability to respond to your opponent - losing player agency because you played cheaper models - just rewards a more Elite and Kill game. 

On the other, activation order and control in I-Go/You-Go games adds a layer of strategy that can be rewarding to a player who likes the 'Kill first then scheme' playstyle.

Changing the scoring method to add in End of Subsequent Turn for schemes can be tuned to be reasonable.  For example, a scheme can be written like:

 

Super Power Ritual

Reveal - have a scheme marker within 3" of a table corner not in your deployment zone

End of Subsequent Turn - have a scheme marker within 3" of a table corner in your deployment zone and a scheme marker within 3" of two other table corners, one of which must be in the enemy deployment zone.

End Game - have scheme marker within 3" of 3 or more table corners, no more than one in your deployment zone.

 

So may seem a bit much at first, but if you make End Game and Reveal eaiser you maintain the current format, but allow someone to go all in on AP early to try and get that mid game point.

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

For kicks and giggles I decided to dig through the games 5 point minions, and man they are pretty bad.  Compared to the likes of a death marshall they are a straight up embarrassment.  A death marshall is basically twice the value for the same price.

[Azahul]

5 minutes ago, Brilliance Laced Whiskey said:

For kicks and giggles I decided to dig through the games 5 point minions, and man they are pretty bad.  Compared to the likes of a death marshall they are a straight up embarrassment.  A death marshall is basically twice the value for the same price.

Just looking in faction, their competition are Guilty and the Freikorpsmann, with additional competition in the 5 point slot from non-Minions including the Obedient Wretch and Big Jake. The Bandidos aren't really measuring up against any of those.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I did an intro game with mad dog plus three bandidos.

They absolutely wrecked.

So I think when facing other cheap minions, they actually hold up really well.

They just suffer even more against meta crews than many other 5 stoners. 

[Avatar of Butter]

On 7/3/2022 at 12:44 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

when facing other cheap minions, they actually hold up really well.

They just suffer even more against meta crews than many other 5 stoners. 

I think this cuts to the heart of the matter. Banditos are actually better than average 5-stone minions, but they are totally outmatched by "meta" minions in the same slot. They have all the tools they need to really shine as scheme runners except for survivability, which puts them in the unenviable position of being fairly high priority targets that require a negligible investment of resources to kill.

The issue is that "average humans" are just not very good investments in Malifaux these days. It's not just Banditos that suffer from fulfilling a bad role; I've been feeling pretty disappointed about the performance of Witchling Stalkers, Orderlies, Freikorpsmen, Rat Catchers, and Catalan Riflemen in my games.

[Azahul]

4 hours ago, Avatar of Butter said:

I think this cuts to the heart of the matter. Banditos are actually better than average 5-stone minions, but they are totally outmatched by "meta" minions in the same slot. They have all the tools they need to really shine as scheme runners except for survivability, which puts them in the unenviable position of being fairly high priority targets that require a negligible investment of resources to kill.

The issue is that "average humans" are just not very good investments in Malifaux these days. It's not just Banditos that suffer from fulfilling a bad role; I've been feeling pretty disappointed about the performance of Witchling Stalkers, Orderlies, Freikorpsmen, Rat Catchers, and Catalan Riflemen in my games.

That's the thing, I don't think I'd call them above average Cost 5 Minions. Freikorpsmenn and Catalan Riflemen comfortably outperform them in my view (which is to say there are situations where I would actually hire the latter two in a competitive game, whereas there isn't any such scenario for the Bandido).

The Bandido's problems aren't limited to "meta" issues, there are some actual structural issues on its card. There's the fact that you need to feed it a not-inconsequential resource in a scheme marker to get it Fast, for example. In a crew with several Bandits it's going to be the lowest priority for a marker, friendly markers aren't trivial to get (unless you're ok with a more expensive model transferring AP to the Bandido via an Interact), it needs to be close to enemy models to benefit from a Drop It trigger, and the rest of its kit severely disincentivises being close to the enemy. Even in a meta where 5 health and no way to reduce damage wasn't a death sentence, a Bandido is terrible in melee and has no easy way to get out of melee. Then there's the fact that Trigger Finger functionally doesn't work, as established, and At Gunpoint could be errata'd off its card without anyone noticing. That's a lot of dead text on the card even before getting to the "it just dies" aspect.

Even by scheme runner standards it's ok, but certainly not to the standard most would consider good. No way to get around terrain or enemy models, no way to leave melee engagement without a disengage, its only selling point is that it sometimes has 3 AP. Which means most of the time a Catalan Rifleman does the same job better, since it can walk twice and Interact without the set-up the Bandido needs.

[Avatar of Butter]

21 hours ago, Azahul said:

That's the thing, I don't think I'd call them above average Cost 5 Minions. Freikorpsmenn and Catalan Riflemen comfortably outperform them in my view (which is to say there are situations where I would actually hire the latter two in a competitive game, whereas there isn't any such scenario for the Bandido)... No way to get around terrain or enemy models, no way to leave melee engagement without a disengage, its only selling point is that it sometimes has 3 AP. Which means most of the time a Catalan Rifleman does the same job better, since it can walk twice and Interact without the set-up the Bandido needs.

We may have to agree to disagree with the Freikorpsmenn, it has been a long time since I've had space for them in crews considering the plethora of good Freikorps models at 6-7 Soulstones.

Regarding the Riflemen, it's a little more complex. A free interact at the cost of a card is not strictly better than fast at the cost of a scheme marker. Life of Crime is harder to set up, but 1 general AP is categorically better than an Interact action. The Bandido DOES have a way to get out of melee off of it's defensive trigger, it has better DF and WP, it has Run and Gun (which somehow keeps getting left out of conversations?) and it benefits more from Bandit keyword synergies (let's face it, we're only talking about Parker crews). On the flip side, the Rifleman has no engagement range and no movement abilities. If you think the Rifleman is just better than the Bandido, then feel free to sub them in to your Parker games, but I certainly wouldn't.

It's all kind of moot in the end; the Dead Outlaw is a STELLAR minion for 6SS, and I'm not sure that the changes you'd have to make for Bandido to be competitive would be justified.

[Azahul]

40 minutes ago, Avatar of Butter said:

Regarding the Riflemen, it's a little more complex. A free interact at the cost of a card is not strictly better than fast at the cost of a scheme marker. Life of Crime is harder to set up, but 1 general AP is categorically better than an Interact action. The Bandido DOES have a way to get out of melee off of it's defensive trigger, it has better DF and WP, it has Run and Gun (which somehow keeps getting left out of conversations?) and it benefits more from Bandit keyword synergies (let's face it, we're only talking about Parker crews). On the flip side, the Rifleman has no engagement range and no movement abilities. If you think the Rifleman is just better than the Bandido, then feel free to sub them in to your Parker games, but I certainly wouldn't.

You're right, a free extra action is better than a free Interact. But if we're looking at them as schemers then practically speaking most of the time the extra action is going to be an interact. More importantly the Rifleman just gets its extra action a lot more frequently than the Bandido for the reasons I outlined. A free Interact is worth a lot more than no action at all.

The Bandido's way out of combat is in the hands of your opponent. If their objective is to prevent you from scoring they'll engage you without attacking you. It's not a useful tool from a scheming perspective.

Better Df/Wp don't come close to beating the additional survivability the Rifleman gets from Hard to Kill. 

I haven't mentioned the Rifleman's movement abilities because they're the same as the Bandido's. Run and Gun hasn't been mentioned because if you're scheming it's giving you one potshot every turn at most and at Stat 5 and Min 2 with Drop It as the most useful trigger it's not irrelevant, but it's getting close. I haven't mentioned it for the same reason I haven't gone through all the marginally useful rules on the Rifleman's card.

But, for what it's worth, I have hired a Rifleman into a Parker2 crew because they don't compete with the Bandit models for scheme markers while being able to incidentally provide scheme markers for those other Bandit models. Being an enabler for your crew is a better synergy for a cheap model than being a tax on those resources.

I haven't felt the need for one in Parker1, but that's largely because my Parker1 crews don't tend to hire any Bandits after Mad Dog and Pearl.

41 minutes ago, Avatar of Butter said:

It's all kind of moot in the end; the Dead Outlaw is a STELLAR minion for 6SS, and I'm not sure that the changes you'd have to make for Bandido to be competitive would be justified.

This confuses me. Dead Outlaw is fine, but it's only really useful in a Daw crew. Why would it ever enter the conversation in Bandit?