Title masters in need of adjustment?

[Erik1978]

So, anyone run into things that might earn another look before the next errata?

It's no suprise of some title masters were only tested lightly in the beta. There were a LOT of masters with a LOT of combinations.

 

So far I’ve come across 3 I think could stand an adjustment, might not be a big one when it comes down to it but I think they need a look:

 

Nekima (Broodmother) Being able to summon 12” away (cheaply), is a bit too good IMO. I’ve had models locked down every turn with a terror tot that I need to kill right after Nekima ends her activation. Worst case scenario if you don’t: it’s now a young Nephilim, “best case”, it’s still a terror tot that either hits me, or misses and still black bloods me, then eats a corpse to heal itself up and become a young next time. Cruel teachings and Birthright are quite good but without the 12” summon she might be okay.

 

Kirai (Envoy) is pretty bonkers IMO. Any master that summons 10+ minons (and we’re not talking eyes and ears here!) is simply too good. Sure, it doesn’t happen every game but with her crazy Revenge aura that gives all enemies with Adversary (Urami) a on Wp duels, it’s way too easy. The new Enslaved Spirits with Chain Gang makes it even more easy, your models are taking Wp 13 duels constantly.

At the same time, Revenge means all your Terrifying models are protected against attacks a lot of the time. Which mostly will mean Ikiryo, one of the most efficient beaters in the game that you give free walk actions with (way too cheap) Seishin, perhaps a Fast from Lost Love for good measure, and last but not least, with Kirai’s swirling spirits you can give Ikiryo a 5” push AND an attack for a measly 2 of rams (or crows), even if Ikiryo is a fresh summon with staggered you can still give her the extra attacks without the push.

After a handful of games against Envoy Kirai I have to say it’s very NPE playing against her. The toughest Hencman still goes down in one turn to those 5-10 attacks from Ikiryo if she really wants something gone. Her onslaught trigger happens even more often now that a crow is also a mask for her.

I’ve never been a fan of irreducible damage in Malifaux but when it’s attached to a Mv 6 onslaught incorporeal model that can always be re-summoned pretty easily, it’s even worse. They even made sure Kirai can both put adversary on an opponent with her stat 7 AND summon Ikiryo with the same action… because reasons. 

 

Yan Lo (Spirit Walker) is not too bad but his Ancient Anchor could be toned down. Make it a smaller aura, or the first time the pet moves or something. As it stands Yan Lo can begin his activation close to enemy deployment, and his pet gives him a free attack that can be an Obey with 2 build in suits that ignore concealment vs his pet? Why. Isn’t Obey powerful enough? His Twist reality shot is good, or it WOULD be good without the “Hole in the World” trigger.

With it, it’s amazeballs. That trigger is crazy. A 6 (SIX!) inch place.

Also: Why are card shenanigans getting better and better? First you had intuition and The Whisper etc. Yan Lo gets to look at not 3 but 5 cards and discard any none-jokers. Oh and put the rest in any order of course. 5 cards? Why not 3? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, the first thing to ask here is what power level is appropriate.

Some players feel that if everything is broken, nothing is. For these players, since so many titles are overpowered, it largely balances out.

Other players feel that original titles should be as competitive as they were before Malifaux Burns. For these players, lots of titles need nerfs as they're out of line with pre-MB titles. 

In the World Series for instance, I think that the last time the data was checked in original vs title games, there were 83 title wins and 59 original wins. That's a pretty large discrepancy (but may not be solely due to power level).

So I think the big disagreement is on the target power level for nerfs.

[Maniacal_cackle]

That said, some of my takes for what should be at least looked at, with a mix of 'word on the street' and personal experience:

Guild

• Lady Justice - she is so efficient at killing and kidnapping, but can she convert that to scoring?
• Perdita - she is so efficient at killing, but can she convert that to scoring?

Arcanists:

• Mei Feng - lots of complaints, no idea if they're well founded.
• Hoffman - super laser build in double masters?

Bayou:

• Brewmaster? Seems to be lots of NPE, not sure if broken.

Explorer's Society:

In a good spot. Lots of great performers, but not sure anything is over the line. Maybe McCabe. Df 8 emissary and/or botanists may be a bit too much.

Neverborn:

The worst performing faction in the series. Nekima is just getting stomped and is having a particularly rough time.

Could be other factors, but most players in the MWS consider Neverborn weak, especially Nekima. Although I suspect lots of people are trying to force Nekima to do things she isn't great for.

Outcasts:

• Tara 2- kidnap is NPE, but some feel she takes it too far. Tara 1 also has a huge power level, so just rough all around.

Outcasts are performing well so there may be others.

Ten thunders:

• Yan lo - possibly most broken master in the game?

Ressers:

• Yan Lo - possibly most broken master in the game?
• Seamus - his second title is good, and his original title is busted, and both require different builds. Cant play around both.
• Kirai - either npe or a bit busted.
• Reva - doing well but not sure. 
• Von schtook - doing well but not sure. 

Overall, ressers seem like the most busted faction in the game so should be hit hardest (but maybe nerf like 3 or 4 keywords and buff a weak one please). Special mention to McMourning 1 - he was on the weaker end before MB, and with the release of MB there's so many things he struggles with that he is now on mega struggle street.

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

27 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Overall, ressers seem like the most busted faction in the game so should be hit hardest

To be fair thats based on 2 out of 5 doing well but not sure results which in a thread of such a title probably don't deserve a mention. 

Seamus original has been the same since launch and he's good but I don't think there's any evidence to call him busted. Surely he'd be played more and have already been called up for a nerf if that were the case (personally I think it's little access to card draw that keeps him in the great at what he does, but not broken category) not being able to plan for both at the same time kind of feels like the point of alternate masters but I appreciate that's not the case across them all

 

Kirai, I can kind of see her place on here. I personally think she's a huge gotcha and if you know what she's going to do and spread out she has a much harder time and of course AOE damage like blasts and shockwaves, also staggered all work well as counters to her playstyle, but I can appreciate the NPE that can be caused the first time you play against it

 

35 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yan Lo - possibly most broken master in the game?

We've discussed elsewhere but there's no way this is the case haha. He's solid but very heavily hinged on a couple of models living long enough. People will learn to build against it and tbf you don't exactly need different tools to kill the models in Yan1 vs Yan2. I will say he sits at the upper end of power IMO but has some counters and potential smackdowns purely due to how his mechanics work 

 

I think alot of the feedback currently LJ2 Tara2 Hoff2 as examples are NPEs but may settle in the meta before errata time rolls around as people learn to play against them 

Although I really hate Lady J 2 playstyle and think it's obnoxious it might not turn out to be broken 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well I did say they deserve a look, not necessarily a nerf for most of them.

9 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

To be fair thats based on 2 out of 5 doing well but not sure results which in a thread of such a title probably don't deserve a mention. 

I think all five of the ressers I have listed are doing well in tournaments so far?

10 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Seamus original has been the same since launch and he's good but I don't think there's any evidence to call him busted. Surely he'd be played more and have already been called up for a nerf if that were the case (personally I think it's little access to card draw that keeps him in the great at what he does, but not broken category) not being able to plan for both at the same time kind of feels like the point of alternate masters but I appreciate that's not the case across them all

Seamus is a lot more powerful this season as half the strategies put perfectly spaced blocking terrain, so that may be why he is doing well at the moment.

He has great access to card draw so I'm not sure how much of a mitigating factor that is (Seamus with Molly backup is one of the best original double master combos in Ressers I reckon).

Not being able to plan for both may be the point, but it definitely boosted his power level. I'd say he was on the edge before, but GG2 and titles put him over the top.

11 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

We've discussed elsewhere but there's no way this is the case haha.

What's your list/who do you think is most busted?

I suspect we're in different categories in relation to our first post of where we put the bar for power level.

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

What's your list/who do you think is most busted?

For me I think its too soon, and I think to a degree Vassal is a different game, the maps heavily favour incorporeal/unimpeded more than average IRL boards (in the UK anyway) which can distort the data if looked at in isolation (but is still a nice and more detailed data set than we're getting anywhere else) 

 

I have stuff I dislike currently but I am always in the camp of not calling stuff broken/op until I'm really sure and I don't believe we can confidently say anything about the new masters from a power level perspective without being heavily influenced by our personal impressions/ meta groups thoughts rather than actual data. I could easily say I think Lady J 2 is broken, but actually she is just hated on alot in the UK right now, does that mean she's actually broken? I don't know so can't say 

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think all five of the ressers I have listed are doing well in tournaments so far?

True but Reva 2 for example has I think 5 games? ( based on the last data I saw it may be more now ) I was 3 of those, and my opponents literally ran at her which is exactly what she wants. None of them knew what would really happen by doing that and I'm very sure if we had replayed the game right then, it could have been a very different result. (I think she's good but mostly has one solid playstyle that if your opponent dances around and doesn't give you a brawl, won't work) 

Schtook 2, Brian is probably a fair chunk of those and does well with whatever he uses 

I think what I'm saying there in a roundabout way is show me a master that is pushing players above their usual calibre and I think we can start to say broken. Andre winning with Nekima as a data set could show Nekima needing nerfs for example based on her win rate. But if we examine it closer is that Nekima being broken or Andre being a good player warping the data with an otherwise fairly balanced keyword (plucking that example from thin air, not sure if the stats back it up but it shows where I'm coming from)

[Yore Huckleberry]

10 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

not sure if the stats back it up but it shows where I'm coming from)

 

Honestly, Malifaux is unlikely to EVER escape from "law of small numbers" outcomes or other interpretive fallacies such as "fundamental attribution error" (in gaming, often the "when I play it, it has weaknesses; when I play against it, it's busted-good" experience).

I beat YL2 with LJ2 yesterday, but I also drew 4 severes in a starting hand, flipped BJ on initiative and then controlled it with my Guild Lawyer all game, and was able to delete one Komainu before it activated with all the severes. Meanwhile, a DMR tanked Manos and Kenshiro because my opponent drew a garbage hand round 2. So that game was pretty ferociously defined by r1-2 draws and flips, and then later there were even more outlier events, like Kenshiro hitting Yan Lo for double severes on negative while ignoring incorporeal and adding 2 damage to kill him from 5 wounds.

But if we have a data set of 3 games with LJ2 vs YL2 and Yan Lo wins the other two in spite of roughly even draws on both sides, someone would review that all and say "these masters seem roughly balanced," not "YL seems to have an edge here if we eliminate this outlier game."

The trouble is, almost all our games have some sort of asterisk by them, whether it's experience mismatches or one player trying a janky build or a sudden black joker on an otherwise reliable maneuver round 5.

Long story short, I think narrative descriptions are better than stats, and "man, be careful of Andre's Nekima doing a heavy alpha top of round 2" is way more likely to be useful info than "Nekima has a +.03 global VP margin for GG1 schemes and strats."

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

To be fair thats based on 2 out of 5 doing well but not sure results which in a thread of such a title probably don't deserve a mention. 

Though also to be fair Ressers have some pretty significant stats backing up their claim that they deserve the most nerfs. I doubt the problem is entirely confined to titles but it seems hard to argue Ressers aren't on top of the game right now (or that Neverborn need some love).

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think there is a lot of merit to calling out the models that look busted initially. That opens space for people to put them to the test.

I certainly have a habit of calling stuff OP when I play it cuz the games feel so one sided... but that could just be me being a good player. 

Yan lo feels like a different category though. If an opponent declares a faction other than ressers, I feel like I can handle just about anything with Yan Lo and be more favored to win than with anything else.

But maybe this is just what it feels like to have a strong master to work with finally when masters like Molly and Marcus1 were my baseline for years xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, regarding Reva and Seamus, I think they've broken the Russian meta a bit as well.

And agree with Azahuls point that it certainly seems like ressers are busted, but the small number issues make it hard to pinpoint what that might be.

And while I'd love to claim that resser players are just better than everyone else, I know most of those players say they wouldn't do as well with other factions.

Pergli is a special case with  Von Schtook. With 100s of games of Transmortis, if he was losing that'd be a red flag that the title was too weak xD

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

7 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

Long story short, I think narrative descriptions are better than stats, and "man, be careful of Andre's Nekima doing a heavy alpha top of round 2" is way more likely to be useful info than "Nekima has a +.03 global VP margin for GG1 schemes and strats."

Thats fair, I think it's a mix of both needed. I think the changing of big NPEs doesn't always happen unless you take into account players thoughts over data as an NPE isn't necessarily busted 

 

6 hours ago, Azahul said:

Though also to be fair Ressers have some pretty significant stats backing up their claim that they deserve the most nerfs. I doubt the problem is entirely confined to titles but it seems hard to argue Ressers aren't on top of the game right now (or that Neverborn need some love).

I think they're in a great place as a faction with solid upgrades and great tools for most situations. I think they've landed at the top due to having answers for most situations the game can throw at you rather than a load of busted models. As with all factions there will be some ahead of the curve models but I think Ressers as a faction offer a good player the opportunity to leverage tools in the faction to carve a pathway to success in any scenario. Whereas I agree Neverborn, whilst not necessarily having more "bad" models, do show the opposite to Ressers in having the least flexibility as a faction to tech in for questions the opponents crew might ask. I don't think the resulting power level gap is huge but the ability to win consistently will be in the favour of Ressers based on this 

 

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I certainly have a habit of calling stuff OP

Haha I've noticed 😋

 

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

And agree with Azahuls point that it certainly seems like ressers are busted, but the small number issues make it hard to pinpoint what that might be.

I'd be curious if you agree with my assessment above for that. There probably is a few tweaks here and there that will help the perception (probably starting with removing intuition from the whisper) but actually things like, a personal favourite of yours Manos, are great models because of the tools they bring but as a model for it's SS cost isn't busted or broken, it's just a useful tool that can sure up gaps and answer questions. Similar with the ever popular Anna. She asks difficult questions and answers problems your opponent gives you but at 10ss is not an overpowered model for her cost

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

I think they're in a great place as a faction with solid upgrades and great tools for most situations. I think they've landed at the top due to having answers for most situations the game can throw at you rather than a load of busted models. As with all factions there will be some ahead of the curve models but I think Ressers as a faction offer a good player the opportunity to leverage tools in the faction to carve a pathway to success in any scenario. Whereas I agree Neverborn, whilst not necessarily having more "bad" models, do show the opposite to Ressers in having the least flexibility as a faction to tech in for questions the opponents crew might ask. I don't think the resulting power level gap is huge but the ability to win consistently will be in the favour of Ressers based on this 

This is the part you meant when you said above?

I think I'd agree with this pre Malifaux Burns.

Now we have amongst the best tech and some of the most powerful tools to work with. And the combination is over the top is my take.

For the first several months of MB I scoffed at the idea of ressers being OP since people like to complain, but looking it over more it is hard to deny. 

Out of curiosity, can you point to a time when something clearly needed a nerf and what the criteria for that being clear was?

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This is the part you meant when you said above?

I think I'd agree with this pre Malifaux Burns.

Now we have amongst the best tech and some of the most powerful tools to work with. And the combination is over the top is my take.

For the first several months of MB I scoffed at the idea of ressers being OP since people like to complain, but looking it over more it is hard to deny. 

Out of curiosity, can you point to a time when something clearly needed a nerf and what the criteria for that being clear was?

Yeah thats it 

I'm not really sure it's much of a gap from the other factions aside from Neverborn and possibly Bayou 

It will be interesting to see how it all levels out, I'm not trying to argue that there aren't nerfs needed by the way, I just have a thing about the broken/op label being thrown around and occasionally pipe up when I see it. I'm sure there will be some resser nerfs as there will be on other factions too and that's completely fine. 

I'd probably say the best example to me is Colette. Activation control, plus survivability, mobility, debuffs and don't mind me meant she could score and deny with near impunity so regardless of what else happened in that game she could win it single handed 

[Regelridderen]

I gotta say, I dislike the summonings of Kirai2.

The balancing factor to summoners have always been the resource drain it put on your hand, action, stone and card wise. Turning that into a resource drain on your opponent either draining their hand or depleting their actions from tar pitting is wildly imbalanced.

[Yore Huckleberry]

9 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Thats fair, I think it's a mix of both needed. I think the changing of big NPEs doesn't always happen unless you take into account players thoughts over data as an NPE isn't necessarily busted

Yeah, there's an interesting constellation of things here. Like, you don't want loud frustration to turn into a self fulfilling prophecy about NPE's, where the community just votes out something new. I think there was a lot of tech vs Nexus that wasn't ever tried before it was hit by the nerf bat, for example (although vengeance-armor may well have been a bit overtuned). We might be in a similar space vs Yan Lo 2, where a few players have already discovered that Raspy/Euri MV-duel spam is a powerful counter to the old ghost, despite him putting up pretty serious wins. I had good luck the other day with a plan for Armor Piercing minion guns vs the doggos. Stuff like that.

 

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

6 minutes ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

Yeah, there's an interesting constellation of things here. Like, you don't want loud frustration to turn into a self fulfilling prophecy about NPE's, where the community just votes out something new. I think there was a lot of tech vs Nexus that wasn't ever tried before it was hit by the nerf bat, for example (although vengeance-armor may well have been a bit overtuned). We might be in a similar space vs Yan Lo 2, where a few players have already discovered that Raspy/Euri MV-duel spam is a powerful counter to the old ghost, despite him putting up pretty serious wins. I had good luck the other day with a plan for Armor Piercing minion guns vs the doggos. Stuff like that.

 

Yeah I definitely think Yan 2 has some hard counters and some solid anti tech that will keep him in check as people settle into it

I'm hoping someone drops it against my Jack Daw haha

[Yore Huckleberry]

49 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Yeah I definitely think Yan 2 has some hard counters and some solid anti tech that will keep him in check as people settle into it

I'm hoping someone drops it against my Jack Daw haha

yeah. Using TtH to defend your Mv 2 model vs a crew that attacks MV and has Execute on its master seems like an uphill battle.

[Erik1978]

20 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Kirai, I can kind of see her place on here. I personally think she's a huge gotcha and if you know what she's going to do and spread out she has a much harder time and of course AOE damage like blasts and shockwaves, also staggered all work well as counters to her playstyle, but I can appreciate the NPE that can be caused the first time you play against it.

 

Seishin and Lost Love can remove staggered, Ikiryo has Shrug off. So that strategy is flawed at best.

Spreading out is fine, unless of course you need the middle of the board for anything at all, and completely spreading out requires a crew with a lot of models that don't need each other. None come to mind right now. And if you do have one, Kirai can then ignore 1 side of the board and swarm the rest.

It's like saying "just avoid adversary and keep more than 8" away from Kirai, then you're fine."

I've played against her a handful of times, I would like to think I know what to avoid, and don't get surprised by what she can do. I'm also an above average player if tournament results are anything to go by, problem is, she has more movement than you, a lot more, and at some point you will be tied up in a handful of summons with a possible flip to Wp duels. If that doesn't happen, the Kirai player is doing it wrong. And last but not least, Kirai can get tired of watching Ikiryuo kill everything and blast them with her shot that you then have a flip to defend against, which inflicts extra damage from the fresh summons.

Quote

Other players feel that original titles should be as competitive as they were before Malifaux Burns.

I guess for me, if the title master makes the original obsolete, there is a problem. I want a game where the terrain, the opponent, the schems & strat determine if I'm fielding one or the other. Kirai 2 is a better choice hands down. And as Regelridderen points out, her summoning puts ZERO strain on her hand or stones. No corpse markers or high cards needed. Just keep moving through opponents and you will get you 1-3 summons per turn or completely drain their hand.

[Jordon]

It's still a bit too early to tell I feel. IMO Malifaux has never had a shakeup as large as Malifaux burns barring an edition change. I'm also not hyper competitive so I can't talk to the cutting edge best stuff as I mostly play in theme for the most part. 

That being said here is my run down of Arcanists

Colette1 got nerfed a while back and seems to be in a good spot overall. Colette2 Doesn't seem as good as Colette1 IMO but I haven't gotten the table time to really test that theory. Overall I think they're both in a good spot. 

Raspy1 got a complete overhaul and will need some time in the sun before coming to any solid conclusion. Raspy2 does still seem better overall but the margin is a lot more narrow than what it used to be. Overall I think both are in a good place. 

Marcus1, while not bad, doesn't seem like he's going to be taken over Marcus2, who in my opinion just does everything Marcus1 does, but better. Not sure I'd call Marcus2 over powered, or Marcus1 under powered. However I do think there is a balance issue between these two titles. That just my opinion. 

Sandeep1 is still fantastic despite the numerous nerfs he's taken. From summoning changes to the Kandara nerf, I still think he's got a lot going for him. Sandeep2 also seems solid. While loosing the ability to summon, he gains a lot with his ability to generate additional actions on many models. Overall they both seem perfectly playable. 

Ironsides1 is great. Ironsides2 changes up her style so much that it makes it tough to compare. I think both still have plenty of uses but overall I'd say Ironsides2 is the stronger pick due to her focus on scoring. I still think they're both totally viable. 

Kaeris1 is a great utility master and seems to be taken a lot from many competitive players. Kaeris2 is a bit more swingy but still seems powerful. Thankfully they fixes the stupid unresisted damage nuke Kaeris2 was capable of, which seemed to balance each title quite nicely. Both seem to be in a good place. 

Mei1 tends to catch some flack for being a bit underpowered. I tend to like her myself and have done reasonably well in the past. Mei2 however seems to be causing some trouble. I haven't tested any of the particularly broken combos but I can see where people may think she's over powered. Overall this is another instance where I think there may be a balance issue between each title. 

Hoff1 has always seemed solid but having to bubble was a big limitation. Hoff2 (now that you can push his markers around) seems good but I can see how some may take issue with the super laser. I think outside of that, both have their merits and drawbacks. I personally think Hoff2 is the better but that may entirely be due to the fact that he matches my play style more. 

Overall I think the Arcanists did pretty well with the titles. Kaeris and Hoff both got nerfs already (deservedly so). With Marcus and Mei being the only instance where I think the new titles are just outright better. The rest seem like they compliment the original but doesn't overshadow them. At least that's my two cents.  

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't think attacking movement works at all. One take the hit later and Yan Lo is out of range and out of sight.

Movement duels are an issue for sure, but with that mobility I'm not sure they are that big an issue.

Burying is the single biggest nightmare for him. It can win the game on the spot so is quite intense to play around.

Stunned would be extremely strong, but between take the hit and Chiaki, he is basically immune to it if played correctly.

Take the hit in general is so problematic with him. Normally take the hit is a resource drain, but with him it is a reposition so only 50mm models can continue to attack him (and only at ranged).

But if you reach the point with a master where you can go "these handful of masters have a fair game into Yan Lo and you just have to accept the loss if you declare the rest"... then that is definitely a problem 😅

6 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

 

 

 

I'd probably say the best example to me is Colette. Activation control, plus survivability, mobility, debuffs and don't mind me meant she could score and deny with near impunity so regardless of what else happened in that game she could win it single handed 

But how to know it is over the line? Do you have criteria? Current Colette has all those things and so do other crews.

We are on opposite spectrums for at least how we use wording, so am curious

[Maniacal_cackle]

For me, my criteria for red flags for a master being overpowered would include things like:

• High winrates in tournaments.
• Good success at top tables/against strong players.
• Shifting player winrates (players get a higher winrate by playing the master)*
• Only being vulnerable to narrow tech.

Which I think all of those masters above exhibit to some degree, and need an eye kept on them.

Although I'm about to have my first game into Mad Dog, one of the best armor ignores in the game, so will see how that goes! Maybe Outcasts can be the faction to make me regret declaring Yan Lo.

*This one is tricky though, as it is a bit rude to call out specific players over it 😜

[Saviouress]

The "data" could be very skewed by the fact that a lot of the Malifaux Burns Titles have abilities that are not very interactable (or at least it's very hard to prevent it from happening). Not requiring a lot of interaction from your opponent is of course something strong on it's own, but in addition to that it feels quite a bit worse.

So things like a 12" 4 irreducible damage laser cannon, constant ping damage without flips, very easy summoning, free build in value, free mobility literally all over the map, kidnapping models ... are probably strong already and feel a lot stronger because it's hard to tech/play against. From a Neverborn perspective (I might be biased here...) our titles seem rather fair in comparison with the top dogs.

 

 

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

3 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Seishin and Lost Love can remove staggered, Ikiryo has Shrug off. So that strategy is flawed at best.

It was just one suggestion dude haha 

I tabled Kirai 2 with Jack Daw 2 last week and I can tell you in that match up it worked a treat. Montressor stopping staggered removal helps for sure but if you have AOE staggered it's still solid 

3 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Kirai 2 is a better choice hands down

I disagree with this. I've played alot of both and I still think OG Kirai is great and definitely has a place. 

52 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't think attacking movement works at all. One take the hit later and Yan Lo is out of range and out of sight

I'd be happy to drain his entire hand in a couple of actions from Jack. Staggered dog being hit by Jack after taking the hit and an execute isn't going to leave any cards left for take the hit for long. Also Jack 2 has enough movement shenanigans to pull Yan out of TTH range. I'd happily run Tormented into it (although I feel they play into different objective sets usually so aren't likely to match up)

[Math Mathonwy]

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But if you reach the point with a master where you can go "these handful of masters have a fair game into Yan Lo and you just have to accept the loss if you declare the rest"... then that is definitely a problem 😅

Yeah, got to agree. All Factions should have game against all Masters so if it comes to down to checking whether you have some exotic counter tech or not (attacking Mv in a meaningful way isn't exactly common) there's definitely a problem. Doubly so if the other version of the Master isn't especially susceptible to said tech.

[Erik1978]

19 hours ago, Jordon said:

It's still a bit too early to tell I feel.

That's the exact reply I got when saying Sandeep M2E was too good.

Let's hope it doesn't take 2 years to fix this time around. I agree we could use more games, there is always the "oh no, it's new, what do I do?" scenario but in Kirai 2's case, her amount of summoning without spending any ressources and the amount of cheap attacks Ikiryo can get should raise a few red flags on their own.