What’s your approach to a good ‘Dishonorable’ list?

[Regelridderen]

Just had Nucius on the table for the first time. It didn’t go all that well, but I liked the backhandedness of it. It feels like the keyword finally has some synergy, so how do you approach a Nucius list?

[SEV]

I don't think there's such thing as a good lllucius list (new or old) 🤣.

Seriously, beside a Changeling and the scripe maybe you don't need KW... So just go for the classic purple powerhouse.

At this point you have to ask yourself is Lucius really the best master in any pool for purple? 

[Regelridderen]

12 hours ago, SEV said:

I don't think there's such thing as a good lllucius list (new or old) 🤣.

Seriously, beside a Changeling and the scripe maybe you don't need KW... So just go for the classic purple powerhouse.

At this point you have to ask yourself is Lucius really the best master in any pool for purple? 

I doubt that he is. He is fun however 😉

 

[extremor]

Of course depending on strat and schemes. And…

1. Dishonorable and changelings do bring quite some mobility. 
 

2. against most opponents I use alan reid. Paired with the Scribe each failure does cost dubble (and with that many tests some of them do fail) and to Support these 2 i use a lawyer to Hand out shielded. With these I Go to where the trouble is expected. 
 

3. always Play strats and schemes first priority. I sometimes leave models hidden so they are Safe to when their Time has come. Don’t be reccless. Play hide and seek. 
 

4. the Crew has a lot of misplacement. „Down the wrong path“ is awesome. Combined with lure and take by the Hand and you can Play a colette Kind of way of you want to. I Mostly don’t cause i use my activation Order to Score if possible. But still Lucius can murder 1-3 models a Game and do his thing. 

[Regelridderen]

I was looking towards trying something out based on Investigators and False Witnesses - for mobility and card draw.

Then use Alan Reid (Boring Conversation) with Klaus Norwood to ensure handing out Staggered. To support Lucius and ensure Alan/Investigators min3 damage.

And throwing in a lawyer for versatility.

Even the False Witness becomes a pseudo-Min3 beater, when it’s near Lucius’ scheme marker.

 

[extremor]

Yes you should definitly do that. I played auch setups about 5-6 times in my LGS and had good success with it. I don’t know how competitive it is an tounament Environment but if you get your experience with it you can make it work (my humble experience in Malifaux in General and with Lucius)… 

I don’t realy know about Klaus. I didnt get him to work well for my so far. Or at least not to an extend that i would consider him over agent or Doppelgängerin. 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

BUT. Tbh and in my experience getting Lucius to work well is primarily a task of getting enough games and experience to manage the synergies and placement well as well as to know when to strike, when to score and when to just wait for an opportunity… and secondary a task of finding an ideal list. So don’t get yourself demotivated by Not getting him to work directly. Esp since you are a well known player with lots of experience… take your Time.  

[Regelridderen]

I’ve only had one game so far, but my biggest problem was that I wasn’t handing out staggered - I was going more for hand drain and execute, which is cool, but more of an incidental gimmick to me ( and would probably be an NPE if it was easy ).

Staggered I find to be huge for Lucius2 himself. For handing out dam7 backhand slaps - along with Alan and Investigators Min3. Hidden passage is decent for this, but if there is no Blocking terrain around your target, then it’s not really working.

I thought Alan to be a good source, but Boring Conversation (+ betrayal) is just too important to a crew, that can’t otherwise defend itself.

Other sources would be Emissary, Klaus, Investigators and Cavatica. 

Emissary terrain markers, although cool,makes it difficult for your own models. And Cavatica doesn’t synergise much with Reid/Investigators - that’s my thoughts anyway.

[extremor]

23 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

thought Alan to be a good source, but Boring Conversation (+ betrayal) is just too important to a crew, that can’t otherwise defend itself.

100% agree. I rarely use alan to Hand out staggered. His boring conversation and one more question are too Good. Esp with coordinated attack. So if playing with Staggered I mostly use the First attack of an Investigator or cavatica. And then attack again and again with coordinated attack, obey, you have your orders, down the wrong path. Sometimes i also use IR on an Investigator but That Puts a big „kill me“ sign above them.
I Play cavatica more often than Klaus Even though cavatica also isnt the synergetic badammm Model i was hoping for! Klaus seems better but i have more success with cavatica for his staggered is 8“, he has following orders and his called out can make mimics attack again (which can be any attack like hidden sniper, down the wrong path, lure, analyse weakness, press for Information…

I havent played Lucius 2 with vasilisa yet. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Neverborn Lucius (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 7
Leader:
  Lucius Mattheson, Dishonorable
Totem(s):
  The Scribe
Hires:
  Vasilisa
  Hinamatsu
  Mysterious Emissary
  Guild Lawyer
    Ancient Pact
  Wicked Doll
    Ancient Pact
  Wicked Doll 2
 

This is a possible list to try with Vasilisa.

Lots of scheming power coupled with some heavy hitters, and tons of puppets for start phase staggered into lucius just deleting models with that +2 init.

EDIT: also shielded from guild lawyer seems so good with armor. Could be worth swapping two dolls for a lawyer. Just hinamatsu for staggered is probably enough.

[extremor]

this List would take me some Time to Master 😅

I would give Hinamatsu the AP Upgrade (she flips a lot of cards…)

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This is a possible list to try with Vasilisa.

Totally forgot about everyone's favourite wooden grandma. But good call.

[Maniacal_cackle]

38 minutes ago, extremor said:

this List would take me some Time to Master 😅

I would give Hinamatsu the AP Upgrade (she flips a lot of cards…)

Yeah, AP can be good there!

I quite like the card draw but Hina is a prime candidate xD

[diki]

I wonder if it's ever worth taking a Cyclops to throw down some blocking terrain?

[Saviouress]

The Cyclops is kind of a feel bad model.

But it can also support your list with unresistable staggered.

[Cranky Old Man]

Forgot lots of cards changed. Carry on, ignore the Crank Old Man

[Hawkoon]

On 4/22/2022 at 1:40 PM, diki said:

I wonder if it's ever worth taking a Cyclops to throw down some blocking terrain?

I guess you could also take a Kaltgeist or 2, but is it a good idea?

[Regelridderen]

On 4/22/2022 at 1:40 PM, diki said:

I wonder if it's ever worth taking a Cyclops to throw down some blocking terrain?

I really like the cyclops idea. Blocking terrain for Lucy and Staggered for damage for both Lucy and Garrottes. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Played two games of Lucius today!

Lucius 1 felt okay:

• Insidious Madness with IR
• Insidious Madness with IR
• Serena Bowman
• Guild Lawyer with Ancient Pact
• Guild Lawyer with Ancient Pact

This one was okay... The Madness felt awesome, but then the rest of the crew just didn't have that oomph factor. Worth tinkering with some more to see if I can find a good list.

What felt good was the crew drew an incredible amount of cards, but then the enemy just jumped over my crew and killed the lawyers 😕

I swapped to this list as I was against McCabe so couldn't play the list I actually wanted to play...

Lucius 2 felt AMAZING:

• Hinamatsu
• Vasilisa
• Mysterious Emissary
• Guild Lawyer with Ancient Pact
• Guild Lawyer with Ancient Pact

Starting the turn with staggered handed out by Hinamatsu was awesome. Shielded 2 on Hina makes her basically invincible.

All the spare scheme markers means Vasilisa bonus action obey is pretty safe to try (which also gives a Following Orders card).

The card quality was extremely high. Two tools for the job and drawing 3-5 cards a turn was awesome. There was enough pressure that he couldn't really deal with my lawyers (and when he tried, I was able to out-card him to keep them alive).

Lucius himself was a monster - regularly achieving those straight flips is great. He's also very durable and can afford to take some hits, which is really nice to not always have to secret passage out.

Will definitely be trying this list again, and also the variant where I swap out a lawyer for more scheming power.

[Regelridderen]

@Maniacal_cackle I’ve been pondering Lucius1 and the insidious Madnesses as well. Paired up with lawyers, but also False Witnesses to help the lawyers with their Obeys and the Madnesses with Distraction - and looking more to a third Madness over Inhuman Reflexes, like this :

3 Madnesses, 2 False Witness, 2 Lawyer (4 stones) So anything particular you liked about the synergies in your list?

 

-

What I’m planning for my next outing I want to try out the synergies between False Witnesses and Investigators :

2 False Witnesses, 2 Investigators, Alan Reid, 1 (2) Cyclops, 10(2) stones.

With False Witnesses pumping out Adversary and scheme markers, and the Investigators then using Stand back… and Remove Evidence

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

@Maniacal_cackle I’ve been pondering Lucius1 and the insidious Madnesses as well. Paired up with lawyers, but also False Witnesses to help the lawyers with their Obeys and the Madnesses with Distraction - and looking more to a third Madness over Inhuman Reflexes, like this :

3 Madnesses, 2 False Witness, 2 Lawyer (4 stones) So anything particular you liked about the synergies in your list?

 

-

What I’m planning for my next outing I want to try out the synergies between False Witnesses and Investigators :

2 False Witnesses, 2 Investigators, Alan Reid, 1 (2) Cyclops, 10(2) stones.

With False Witnesses pumping out Adversary and scheme markers, and the Investigators then using Stand back… and Remove Evidence

What I liked about Inhuman Reflexes is it makes the madness essentially immune to engagement.

They can't be tied up. You just hit them with an obey effect and they can charge out of combat (often doing blade rush), or even just blade rush into attack (and if you hit ram trigger that's min-4...)

Excited to hear how the cyclops build goes!

[Regelridderen]

9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Excited to hear how the cyclops build goes!

Just have to get a couple of cyclops first 😊

But was considering that dual cyclops might work better for Lucy1 and extra stones for Lucy2.

[extremor]

I went to the welsh gt and soloed Lucius 2. 

list was basicly the same:

lucius, Scribe, Agent, alan, lawyer, changeling.

from there i adapted to strats and schemes trying Doppel, cavatica, Klaus, Hildegard and more changelings. 
 

the Core was amazing and I got quite a lot of realy good moments and plays. After all I ended up 19th with 3-0-3. could have been better but to be honest I was playing Lucius 5/6 of all Games 100%  in keyword and only lose to reva 2 (who I didnt know how to play against), arc Marcus (lost 6-8 because I closely missed to score Vendetta) and euripides 2 (cause he killed my catch and release model First turn) fehlt quite Good nevertheless. One game (parker 1) I won denying my opponent all his Points. Kirai 2 got outmaneuvered 👍 and dreamer 2 as well… 

alan reid was a huge pita in all Matches and is definitely my MVP  

2/3 Matches i lost were Turf war. 
 

well it was my First international tournament ever… 

[Regelridderen]

Just took a day in the Dojo :

Corrupted Ley Lines & Flank deployment

Vendetta, Claim Jump, Assassinate, Hidden Martyrs, Catch and Release

And brought :

Lucius2 + Scribe + 4 Stones

Alan Reid

Mysterious Emissary

Investigator x2

False Witness x2 w. Ancient Pact

Chose Assassinate and Hidden Martyrs (Investigator + False Witness).

vs

Yan Lo (The Whisper) + Soul Porter + 6 Stones

Manos

Yin

Izamu

Chiaki

Komainu w. Grave Spirit’s Touch

and went for Claim Jump w. Izamu and the Komainu had a Vendetta vs an Investigator.

The board had plenty of blocking terrain for Lucius to jump around - one strategy marker was atop a ht3 rock. The center and another marker was hidden in large forests that threatened to cause some headaches for both crews, and as they met in the middle in a severe concealing clusterfuck.

What went well : False Witnesses’s False Claim and Investigators Stand back… really got the crew unpacked. And even if my hand was awful, those 28 stones made for drawing four cards/turn. Along with Lucius’s You have your… for a fifth. Lucius’s Hidden Passage makes for some fun sheananigan’s, like jumping into the midst of the opponents crew, staggering everyone before jumping out.

False Witnesses are easy to underestimate for their damage potential, Slander with a crow really punches way above their weight.

What went okay-ish : I was counting on the emissary for ranged Staggering, but counting on the suits was harsh - but the emissary did manage to stagger Izamu and set him up for a good death from garroting - the emissary ignoring severe terrain was instrumental in getting two ley lines and it’s Grasping Tentacles kept Yan Lo from killing the False Witness that scored my final point.

What went bad : I forgot Lucy’s scheme marker for the first two turns, which was beyond dumb. I also overextended Lucy, and Yan Lo took advantage of it and killed him in two turns. Alan and the investigators stumbled into the central forest, and started to stumble across each other. My opponent was constantly able to remove Staggered from his models - and min3 doesn’t matter that much vs armour +2 anyway.

Two False Witnesses might have been too much, a lawyer would have allowed more versatility and card draw and the Shielded would have made a big difference.

Scoring

Lucy : The strategy worked well. The mobility of the crew was amazing - despite severe terrain - and yielded all four points.

Assassinate was a miss. Yan Lo is tough - and it doesn’t help that he can deal a good amount of damage.

Hidden Martyrs is always ‘easy’, but I almost missed it. My opponent was focused on the other Investigator because of Vendetta. Luckily Yin had to kill my investigator late turn 5 to avoid risking me denying Vendetta.

Yan Lo : there was a lot of stumbling. Staggered caused a mess of the ancestral ranks, and even though Chiaki’s reliquae bounced all over the place, the strategy only yielded Yan Lo two points. As a cheeky False Witness denied some last turn ball passing. ADD I just learned that Chiaki can’t distribute her own reliquae, and for good reason  

Claim Jump was completely denied, when Izamu got garroted.

Vendetta was a complete success, but what should have been easy was prone to bad flips, and it was only turn four that the first point was in. And securing the second gave Lucy a point for Hidden Martyrs

Total score : Lucy 5 vs Yan Lo 4