General Faction Upgrades

[Jordon]

This edition has been in the wild long enough and I'm curious about how people play their faction upgrades. The problem with upgrades in the previous edition was that you'd always see them on the same models. Any boost in efficiency will typically be felt more on the models that themselves can do more. 

I feel like M3E has tried to address this issue by giving a minion specific incentive on all their faction upgrades to offset the fact that they are on weaker models. I do think that in some ways, it has helped but in my experience I'm still seeing much of the same issues as I was seeing in M2E.

I think the issue lies with the fact that no two minions are considered equal. In fact there exists, in most factions, minions on equal footing as enforcers and even henchmen. You know the one's I'm talking about. Those 8-9 costed minions that seem to get way more of a boost from upgrades disproportional of those in the 4-5ss range.

I don't want this to devolve into "what makes something a minion" or "why low cost minions are never taken". I'm more interested in how to make the upgrade system better. To that end, I don't think we should be locking away abilities behind the minion station. I feel like we should give full access to all abilities and simply increase the cost of the upgrade based on the model its attached to.

For example.

All faction upgrades cost 1ss

They cost 2ss if hired on a model that costs 6-8

They cost 3ss if hired on a model that costs 9+

All faction upgrades are Rare 1

 

Obviously it would require some reshuffling and re balancing but the idea is that it would give more options and less obvious picks. Having only one means no doubling up if one upgrade is inevitably stronger than the others in a given list. Having it only cost 1ss means less risk if taken on weaker models.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Jordon]

I guess locking abilities could still work but again I would probably base it on cost instead of station.

1-5ss models gets you 3 abilities

6-8ss models gets you 2 abilities

9+ss models gets you 1 ability

[Maniacal_cackle]

Altering cost is my favorite solution.

It costs the same to put gst on a hanged or a rotten Belle... so guess which one gets the upgrade xD

There's also an argument to do away with upgrades... but overall they help provide a faction identity which I really like.

Neverborn wouldn't be the same without ancient pact for instance.

[Azahul]

I think the transition from Reckoning to Public Enemies in the GG0 to GG1 Strategies showed that the developers recognised that they probably overemphasised Station over Cost in a few parts of the design, so I don't think recalibrating upgrades to be more expensive/less effective on higher value models is a bad concept.

 

But if you're curious as to how I play my Faction Upgrades, the answer is: I play Outcasts. I don't

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Azahul said:

I think the transition from Reckoning to Public Enemies in the GG0 to GG1 Strategies showed that the developers recognised that they probably overemphasised Station over Cost in a few parts of the design, so I don't think recalibrating upgrades to be more expensive/less effective on higher value models is a bad concept.

 

But if you're curious as to how I play my Faction Upgrades, the answer is: I play Outcasts. I don't

But would you if the upgrades could cost 1 on a cheap model?

[Azahul]

48 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But would you if the upgrades could cost 1 on a cheap model?

Some of them might be worth 1 stone on a good model...

[Regelridderen]

I love the idea of a scaling cost.

It’s definitely not the same putting a 2 stone upgrade on a 10 stone Nephilim as on a 5 stone Woe.

It would also provide inventives for bringing the cheaper minions. 

[Jordon]

On 4/9/2022 at 10:07 PM, Azahul said:

But if you're curious as to how I play my Faction Upgrades, the answer is: I play Outcasts. I don't

Definitely hear you there... SoDP is okay-ish but the others I have never taken, nor have I ever seen others take them. Maybe at 1ss I could see them appear on a few specific models but overall I do think Outcasts need a total redo on their upgrades.

Station should really only be used for allowing multiple hires, summoning, and other ability interactions. I don't like having schemes/strats work with "minions" either as I think it just promotes the same problems. Hire big, win big. 

[clockworkspide]

13 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Definitely hear you there... SoDP is okay-ish but the others I have never taken, nor have I ever seen others take them. Maybe at 1ss I could see them appear on a few specific models but overall I do think Outcasts need a total redo on their upgrades.

Station should really only be used for allowing multiple hires, summoning, and other ability interactions. I don't like having schemes/strats work with "minions" either as I think it just promotes the same problems. Hire big, win big. 

I've gotten some decent mileage out of Soldier for Hire on the Freikorps Scout, though I'm by no means a bleeding edge competitive player.

[Azahul]

48 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Definitely hear you there... SoDP is okay-ish but the others I have never taken, nor have I ever seen others take them. Maybe at 1ss I could see them appear on a few specific models but overall I do think Outcasts need a total redo on their upgrades.

Station should really only be used for allowing multiple hires, summoning, and other ability interactions. I don't like having schemes/strats work with "minions" either as I think it just promotes the same problems. Hire big, win big. 

The other two non-SoDP upgrades both require enemy scheme markers for one of their main abilities to function. It's such a weird design. We have one Keyword that makes them reliably (but has their own uses for them), and two models that make them unreliably/inefficiently. Such a weird niche of the faction to double down on so hard.

[Morgan Vening]

3 hours ago, Azahul said:

The other two non-SoDP upgrades both require enemy scheme markers for one of their main abilities to function. It's such a weird design. We have one Keyword that makes them reliably (but has their own uses for them), and two models that make them unreliably/inefficiently. Such a weird niche of the faction to double down on so hard.

Part of the problem is the available Scheme Pool. While several Schemes do require Scheme Markers, most are "one and done", like Detonate, Outflank or Death Beds, where you're putting them down on the same turn you pick them up.

As I see it, only Breakthrough and Spread Them Out are likely to have Scheme Markers down for more than a turn, and that requires investing an extra 2SS to help prevent the Scheme, rather than just hunting down the model doing the Scheme.

In previous incarnations/editions, there was reason to put down Scheme Markers everywhere. But the action limitations and limited schemes (and no strats) where it's beneficial, are gone. So it just makes it incredibly niche to have abilities keying off of it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

26 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Part of the problem is the available Scheme Pool. While several Schemes do require Scheme Markers, most are "one and done", like Detonate, Outflank or Death Beds, where you're putting them down on the same turn you pick them up.

As I see it, only Breakthrough and Spread Them Out are likely to have Scheme Markers down for more than a turn, and that requires investing an extra 2SS to help prevent the Scheme, rather than just hunting down the model doing the Scheme.

In previous incarnations/editions, there was reason to put down Scheme Markers everywhere. But the action limitations and limited schemes (and no strats) where it's beneficial, are gone. So it just makes it incredibly niche to have abilities keying off of it.

Yeah I'd like to see more schemes that emphasize multi turn scheme markers but no idea what that would look like.

[Azahul]

57 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah I'd like to see more schemes that emphasize multi turn scheme markers but no idea what that would look like.

Strats might actually be the place to do it. Imagine Turf War where you controlled a marker not by Interacting with the marker, but by having the most Scheme Markers within 4" of it.

 

Getting a bit far from the original topic here I admit I apologise, I see a chance to make fun of my faction's upgrades, I take it.

[dannydb]

I guess it depends on upgrade and what it does.....or i guess more likely is it ancient Pact/magical training or something else 

 

Ive see ancient pack/magical training on cheap models kept at the back cos they are almost seen as crew upgrades rather than model upgrades, and the model is just there to caddy the upgrade over anything else 

 

Meanwhile some upgrades are there to make a model work but dont do much for the crew overall and then and wont be seen otherwise 

[solkan]

Upgrades would have been a lot more useful if they were purchased and/or assigned after both crews were revealed.

I think, just line in M2E, situational upgrades don't get taken because if you choose wrong and don't need the upgrade (or it doesn't apply because it's counter for something that wasn't hired) you're just wasting soul stones.

So the safer (and better performing) approach is not to take the situational upgrades, or the models that would need the situational upgrades.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, solkan said:

Upgrades would have been a lot more useful if they were purchased and/or assigned after both crews were revealed.

I think, just line in M2E, situational upgrades don't get taken because if you choose wrong and don't need the upgrade (or it doesn't apply because it's counter for something that wasn't hired) you're just wasting soul stones.

So the safer (and better performing) approach is not to take the situational upgrades, or the models that would need the situational upgrades.

 

On the flip side, terrifying benefits from a bit of a shell game, and it'd be negated if players could decide to upgrade ruthless after seeing your crew.

[solkan]

15 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

On the flip side, terrifying benefits from a bit of a shell game, and it'd be negated if players could decide to upgrade ruthless after seeing your crew.

I'm sorry.  I can't manage to agree to the statement "The existence of the High River Style upgrade card makes taking Terrifying or Manipulative models against Shelling pointless," which appears to be the conclusion of your statement.

Alternately, the existence of a "shell game" is what makes the various conditional upgrades pointless.  That's the whole problem.

[Zebo]

As it's been said, more expensive minions are gonna be the ones who wear the upgrades above cheaper ones. 

 

I, as Outcast player, can't think of playing Hamelin or Daw without SoDP, and with Daw always comes a Hanged with SoDP also (I'm not really a fan of repeating models in a crew). 

 

But if upgrades had a discount for cheaper models, I probably would give a try to cheap scheme runners with WC or maybe a pair of tormented with SoDP and have more terrifying models spread in the crew. 

 

Still, WC and SfH feels too expensive for what they give. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I dunno, I think they are mostly fine. The solutions proposed here don't really address the perceived problems I feel. The only models that are ever going to get given an upgrade are those that are going to get commensurate benefits for doing so. Scaling cost isn't really elegant, so I wouldn't be in favor of such. The only thing I don't like is that Upgrades kinda punish enforcers. I sort of wish the abilities scaled with station, get the most if you are a minion, get a little less if you are an enforcer, less if you are a henchmen, and the least if you are a master.

I don't think the system is flawed enough at the moment to warrant a change wholesale, personally.

[Azahul]

6 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I dunno, I think they are mostly fine. The solutions proposed here don't really address the perceived problems I feel. The only models that are ever going to get given an upgrade are those that are going to get commensurate benefits for doing so. Scaling cost isn't really elegant, so I wouldn't be in favor of such. The only thing I don't like is that Upgrades kinda punish enforcers. I sort of wish the abilities scaled with station, get the most if you are a minion, get a little less if you are an enforcer, less if you are a henchmen, and the least if you are a master.

I don't think the system is flawed enough at the moment to warrant a change wholesale, personally.

Station strikes me as one of the worst ways to scale upgrades with, it's the essential problem with the current system. I mean why do Philip and the Nanny deserve less upgrade functionality than a Mature Nephilim? Station doesn't mean anything, inherently (besides Soulstone use for Henchmen, but even that doesn't necessarily mean the model will be more or less impactful with an upgrade) and using it the way the current system does creates incongruities as a result.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another angle could be to just embrace that strong models get the upgrades.

Why would Nellie give the Lead Line Coat to a Newsie and go out unprotected?

Could make the upgrades cost one and make them unique. And change nothing else.

Would mean that upgrades became a defining part of faction identity as you'd almost always see them, but there'd be some variance in where you see them (but it'd still be the strongest models).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Although since this would be for an edition change, could always go bigger.

Make upgrades something you can give to a crew.

[Adran]

One thing that makes " general rules for upgrades" more complicated is that it depends on what the upgrade does as to if it's better on a cheap model or an expensive model. New abilities or stat increases will be much better on a expensive model, but new actions ( such as treasure map) are often better on cheaper models because the more expensive model has a better action that you don't do to take the new action. 

It's a bit more complicated in M3 where every upgrade follows a set pattern and there are so few compared to last edition where it was rate to see a master with less than 3 upgrades and most crews spent 10+ ss on upgrades. 

[Thatguy]

I think the little guys need some love, upgrades seem like a difficult way to do it. 

You could maybe add upgrades that are limited to only cheap models or give the existing upgrades a bonus to cheap models. But you're essentially just trying to patch subpar models to be useful. That seems like it would be better solved by errata that just makes the models better or maybe objective changes that reward taking cheap models.

[Jordon]

I'm just tired of always seeing the same models getting the usual upgrades. SoDP on Hanged is just too efficient to ignore. The model might as well cost an extra 2ss and staple the abilities to the card. I'm sure every faction has them and it's a shame that the cheap minions will never get their chance while these super minions exist.