Help constructing a Jacob Lynch game for a friend

[Shakyor]

So I am just not a ten thunders player - so a copy of a post I posted over at the ressers forum to seek an experienced perspective from you fine people.

 

 

So something a bit different - I have a friend who really has a good strategical mind and kind off got off malifaux because he said the upfront cost in time investment was just too high.

Especially crew building. He found it pretty frustrating having to read basically his and the opponents entire faction, to properly prepare for a game. Now you can say, he can just start playing with the models he has and learn from there. Sure , but to him (and i understand) it was frustrating when he felt he already lost at crew select because he took obviously terrible models into the opponent, or the opponent had an obvious strategy he cant answer but should have been able to. (Stuff like taking ruthless into jack daw)

So he asked, to maybe learn the game and the factions, if I could just prepare fun games where I write both lists which are close to a competitive setting, but written like two competent players would have created them in reality. So he can just focus on understanding these two lists, the encounter and how it all interacts. I think that is pretty fair. So I am considering what would be best. He already played Jacob back in the day, so I think of just taking him since he has the models and spent some time understanding him. So what would be fun game between any resser master and any jacob version which would be realistic in a tournament setting in your opinion? Maybe even with some interesting ques for a game plan for him.

[regleant]

Weird. I guess your friend doesn't play any strategic games, then. No Warmachine, no Magic: the Gathering, no 40k, and very few board games, because they wall require the same concept of learning both what you can do as well as your opponent. He's not wrong that the time commitment is high. The heuristic I've heard is that it takes about 20 games to be comfortable. Multiply that by ~2 hours per game, and it's certainly an investment.

 

Personally, I prefer Malifaux because I've truly found very few bad match-ups. There should be as much OR MORE attention paid to how to solve the strategy and schemes as solving your opponent's army, and that can keep new players going. Malifaux is not in of itself a combat game. Some keywords play that way, and certainly models die on both sides. But your friend may not be as strategic as he thinks.  

 

EDIT: none of this answers the 2nd part of your question. I'll have to think about that. 

[regleant]

Thinking about the 2nd part of the question, many of my learning games were with Shenlong, and I won a respectable number of games as a beginner. This is because:

• High River Monks and Wandering River Monks have movement tricks that help them ignore the enemy and focus on the points. High River Monks are also capable of dealing out the damage when pressed
• The amount of Focused, Fast, and Chi tokes for +2 to duals (which have to happen prior to anyone cheating, which is weird but the rule) allows Monks to win more duals on average. 
• There is some Condition Removal, and adding the Drunken Trash Panda (Tanuki) helps even more, and may help against Jack Daw.

Also Jack Daw is a pretty amazing, condition-heavy Master. Shame on you for throwing that into a new player.

[Cursed25]

On 4/10/2022 at 6:53 PM, regleant said:

Chi tokes for +2 to duals (which have to happen prior to anyone cheating, which is weird but the rule) allows Monks to win more

you have to declare using the chi after flipping but the +2 is only added for the final duel total! Every modifier works like that. So chi don't change anything for the order of who have to cheat first.

[regleant]

1 hour ago, Cursed25 said:

you have to declare using the chi after flipping but the +2 is only added for the final duel total! Every modifier works like that. So chi don't change anything for the order of who have to cheat first.

Just to be sure we're saying the same thing - 

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/148821-chi-vs-cheating/?sortby=date

 

[Cursed25]

20 hours ago, regleant said:

Just to be sure we're saying the same thing - 

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/148821-chi-vs-cheating/?sortby=date

 

Ogid is right on the post you linked! he is saying the same thing as me! You decide to use chi right after flipping but the +2 modifier is only factored in the last duel total (after cheating is done)

[Jinn]

3 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

Ogid is right on the post you linked! he is saying the same thing as me! You decide to use chi right after flipping but the +2 modifier is only factored in the last duel total (after cheating is done)

So how do you determine who cheats first if you aren't calculating a duel total? Harness Chi states when it affects your duel total, after you flip one or more cards as part of a duel. 

"In an opposed duel, the player with the lowest duel total has the first opportunity to Cheat Fate; in the event of a tie, the Defender Cheats first. Once that player Cheats Fate or decides not to, their opponent has the opportunity to Cheat Fate."

"Harness Chi: After this model flips one or more cards as part of a duel, it may discard one Chi Token to gain +2 to its duel total."

What am I missing? We know the duel total exists during the Cheat Fate step as it is how we determine who cheats first, and we know when Chi modifies the duel total because it says to do so after flipping. The only way I could see your interpretation being correct is if Chi referred specifically to the "final duel total", but it tells you to modify the duel total instead.

There are many other effects that specifically say they modify the final duel total (such as stoning, or Neil Henry's Steel Driver) rather than the duel total. 

[Cursed25]

2 hours ago, Jinn said:

So how do you determine who cheats first if you aren't calculating a duel total? Harness Chi states when it affects your duel total, after you flip one or more cards as part of a duel. 

"In an opposed duel, the player with the lowest duel total has the first opportunity to Cheat Fate; in the event of a tie, the Defender Cheats first. Once that player Cheats Fate or decides not to, their opponent has the opportunity to Cheat Fate."

"Harness Chi: After this model flips one or more cards as part of a duel, it may discard one Chi Token to gain +2 to its duel total."

What am I missing? We know the duel total exists during the Cheat Fate step as it is how we determine who cheats first, and we know when Chi modifies the duel total because it says to do so after flipping. The only way I could see your interpretation being correct is if Chi referred specifically to the "final duel total", but it tells you to modify the duel total instead.

There are many other effects that specifically say they modify the final duel total (such as stoning, or Neil Henry's Steel Driver) rather than the duel total. 

It's on page 10 of the rulebook. modifiers for a duel are only added at step D : Determine Final Duel Total.

If you look at Step B: Flip Fate card, they say to add your stat, the value of the card and any suits you have to determine your current duel total. While in step D they ask you to add your stat, value of the card, suits and any additional suits or modifiers to get your final duel total

[Jinn]

9 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

It's on page 10 of the rulebook. modifiers for a duel are only added at step D : Determine Final Duel Total.

If you look at Step B: Flip Fate card, they say to add your stat, the value of the card and any suits you have to determine your current duel total. While in step D they ask you to add your stat, value of the card, suits and any additional suits or modifiers to get your final duel total

It actually doesn't say they're only added at step D, it just says you add modifiers to determine your final duel total (such as stoned suits and other effects that kick in here). It is telling you to do something, not telling you not to do something. I can see how you could interpret it that way but it isn't how the rules are written, because specific trumps general and Chi tells you to modify your duel total after you flip.

That is to say that the duel total is a set of two things, your current duel total and your final duel total. Some effects refer to your current duel total and some refer to your final duel total, but because Chi refers to your just "duel total" it affects both.

When an ability tells you to do something that is different to the general rules then you do it unless the general rules specifically tell you not to. The rule in step D would have to specify that you can only add modifiers in that step, rather than simply asking you add any modifiers.

Here's the wording of Step D for reference:

"Players then add their stat, the value and suit of the card in the Conflict, and any additional suits or modifiers together to determine their final duel total. Players must inform their opponent of their final duel total."

If an effect modified your duel total and had no specific timing then I'd agree it wouldn't come into play until step D.

I'll also point out that Step B does the exact same thing that Chi does, it asks you to add your Stat + the value of the flipped card and any suits to determine your duel total at a different time than Step D, even though Step D tells you to add those things at a later time. Just because it tells you to do that in Step D to get your final duel total doesn't mean you can't do it in Step B, or after you flip a card in Chi's case.

[Cursed25]

7 hours ago, Jinn said:

It actually doesn't say they're only added at step D, it just says you add modifiers to determine your final duel total (such as stoned suits and other effects that kick in here). It is telling you to do something, not telling you not to do something. I can see how you could interpret it that way but it isn't how the rules are written, because specific trumps general and Chi tells you to modify your duel total after you flip.

That is to say that the duel total is a set of two things, your current duel total and your final duel total. Some effects refer to your current duel total and some refer to your final duel total, but because Chi refers to your just "duel total" it affects both.

When an ability tells you to do something that is different to the general rules then you do it unless the general rules specifically tell you not to. The rule in step D would have to specify that you can only add modifiers in that step, rather than simply asking you add any modifiers.

Here's the wording of Step D for reference:

"Players then add their stat, the value and suit of the card in the Conflict, and any additional suits or modifiers together to determine their final duel total. Players must inform their opponent of their final duel total."

If an effect modified your duel total and had no specific timing then I'd agree it wouldn't come into play until step D.

I'll also point out that Step B does the exact same thing that Chi does, it asks you to add your Stat + the value of the flipped card and any suits to determine your duel total at a different time than Step D, even though Step D tells you to add those things at a later time. Just because it tells you to do that in Step D to get your final duel total doesn't mean you can't do it in Step B, or after you flip a card in Chi's case.

maybe you're right, maybe not! there's been pretty good rule lawyer in my group that have said this answer to me and I'm not alone thinking this in this forum as Ogid also thinks the same way. It would be nice to have a clear answer tho.

In the end, if Wyrd confirms in a FAQ Chi also boost the first duel total, I do not mind at all even if Monk do not need this boost really! I've played against Monk a lot since my main opponent really likes them.

[Psycho_alchemist]

The Chi rule has always been a bit misinterpreted. In my mind I play it like...ok I have stat +2 for the duration of the duel.

Wouldn't this be easier?

[Spitfire]

1 hour ago, Psycho_alchemist said:

The Chi rule has always been a bit misinterpreted. In my mind I play it like...ok I have stat +2 for the duration of the duel.

Wouldn't this be easier?

It would, but then there comes the kin with flinch which triggers on stat which would be falsely triggered by using the chi as described.

[regleant]

The thread linked above is the most "definitive" group alignment I've seen on the topic. Should Wyrd issue it in a FAQ? Yes, absolutely. Does not adding the +2 until the very end, but having to use before you cheat cause a negative play experience? Yes, absolutely. I agree it should be cleaned up, but for now I will continue playing as the Rules Forums have determined.