Why all the Carver Hate?

[SurreyLee]

Okay, so i've recently been back to playing purple after a hiatus and I see a lot of hate for Carver and I can't really see why. Coupled with Candy, he surely has an awesome ability to really annoy crews and become super survivable. Draw Essence tactical action is simply ace. It's a 3 inch bubble so just outside of what Candy requires for her Corrupted Innocence ability, Candy is making things drop cards, gives Carver Fast and then boom, pumps out Draw Essence in a little bubble, Carver likely to heal up nicely and if the oppo has no or very few cards, it's likely to do a lot of pulse damage. I appreciate they oppo has to conveniently bunch up but hey, it's not unrealistic with Carvers base size to get 2/3 models in that bubble. Candy could even set this up nicely at the end of one turn to the start of the next turn. 

The best thing about it from my perspective is it require no card flips at all for it to go off. 

His Breath of Fire attack is also really good for both bubbles and scheme heavy oppo. No gun symbol is pretty useful. 

Shears is okay, again, low cards for oppo should lead to easy execute trigger. 

Ruthless if needed. 

Terrifying 11 and a great way of removing focus from the oppo. 

So, given all of the above, why does Carver get no love?

[Hawkoon]

Might be obvious, but I'm not without bias when it comes to Carver. From what I've gathered Carver is neither considered a solid beater or very tanky for 10SS, compared to other options in the faction. And I tend to agree in some cases, but far from all of them. He does rely quite heavily on synergies with other models to really shine, but when he does I've found him to be quite solid.

What he does bring is anti-focus tech, ping damage, attack giving out stunned, synergy with both nightmare and woe models (although I think he does better with woe than nightmare) but in my veiw the most imporant is stat 7 attack paired with ruthless. The reason he's not an auto-include in my lists is the sheer cost of 10SS, where there are a lot of other must-have models and I just can't fit him in.

[Mortarion]

In my opinion Carver is OK, but slightly overcosted. The main problem is that it is quite good at several things but not really awesome at anything. And for 10 SS, "quite good" just isn't enough. That being said, I still use it a lot with Pandora, as I like to use models in keyword. And while it is rarely "model of the match", it usually does something.

Its version of Opportunist is one of the better ones, as Focused is quite common. Ruthless can be good against certain crews, and the Shears attack is solid. In my experience, you almost never get a good opportunity to use Draw Essence in practice. There are either too few enemies or too many friendly models in the area. TN12 is quite easy to pass and if the opponent is low on cards I think you are better off trying to get good hits with Shears or Breath of Fire.

[Regelridderen]

Trouble with Carver is that he really doesn’t do anything spectacular. Candy will make a mess on her own, alone or paired up with any beater. 

But Carver is nice as a tech piece vs. Terrifying and Manipulative. The trigger to remove scheme markers on his Breath of Fire is really nice as well. Indeed I find that I make more use of his Breath of Fire than his shears. The draw essence is also nice for draining your opponents hand.

But when looking for a straight beater, I’d rather just pick up Teddy with Kade. Hinamatsu or the Rider. 

 

[Antipodean]

I've been getting great use out of Carver with Dreamer2. The ability to hit minimum 5 damage (card/stone/built in ram) on a St7 attack can clear smaller models in a single hit and even threaten 8-10 wound creatures with a 2 hit KO. It helps I can push him around a great deal and give him advantageous card + positive flips. The Ruthless has come into play quite a great deal as I play in a terrifying heavy meta. I used to run Rider but with Dreamer2 providing his own mobility I run Carver a lot these days. Having Serena around does increase his survivability a great deal in addition.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

17 minutes ago, Antipodean said:

I've been getting great use out of Carver with Dreamer2. The ability to hit minimum 5 damage (card/stone/built in ram) on a St7 attack can clear smaller models in a single hit and even threaten 8-10 wound creatures with a 2 hit KO. It helps I can push him around a great deal and give him advantageous card + positive flips. The Ruthless has come into play quite a great deal as I play in a terrifying heavy meta. I used to run Rider but with Dreamer2 providing his own mobility I run Carver a lot these days. Having Serena around does increase his survivability a great deal in addition.

 

Min 5 - just to make sure, you're not doing three rams for crit strike? Since it limits at +2 damage?

[Regelridderen]

3 hours ago, Antipodean said:

The Ruthless has come into play quite a great deal as I play in a terrifying heavy meta…

This is undoubtedly why you’re more in favor of him than most. ( This and the little misunderstanding you seem to have with Min5 damage. Otherwise please explain how you get to 5 without severe? ).

[Hawkoon]

2 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

This is undoubtedly why you’re more in favor of him than most. ( This and the little misunderstanding you seem to have with Min5 damage. Otherwise please explain how you get to 5 without severe? ).

Even if you get the chance to cheat in a severe for 5 damage, in most situations I'd rather keep the severe on hand instead of cheating it in. (Unless it would kill an important model that is). But he is quite reliable min 4 with stat 7, and I think that has some value worth considering. Now if only he was a little faster...

[Azahul]

Carver really makes me think of Taelor. Stat 7 beaters without the normal "third AP" you would normally expect for models of their cost.

 

To an extent I wonder how much he's balanced around Pandora giving him a second built in Rams and then Candy adding Fast.

[Hawkoon]

2 hours ago, Azahul said:

Carver really makes me think of Taelor. Stat 7 beaters without the normal "third AP" you would normally expect for models of their cost.

His bonus isn't half bad, as it does give your opponent stunned and triggers misery, and can to some extent be considered "a third AP". He also gets a heal from feed on fears if you're already engaging the model.

[BadLuckBear]

I really like Carver. He was a staple of my Pandora crew when I first came back to ‘Faux in m3e. Having the threat of Carver, Teddy, Kade and Candy made for a lot of fun. He’s definitely cost-heavy but he isn’t awful. He can benefit from her Despair’s Influence action too. 

[SEV]

The real problem of Carver and mostly any other high cost purple beater is that Hina exist...

I like him a lot though and he outshines her in some situations. 

My only complaint: he's really slow. I like to play an aggressive playstyle with Dora, and usually he's late to the party.

I think he offered 4 I interesting things : 1) Focus control; 2) Ruthless (oh boy this is a rare commodity in purple); 3) Breath of fire; 4) min 4 stat 7 attack (not a lot of minions can resist a Sheers double punch).

Beside that, he's an other execute Henchman for Dreamer 2 or Zoraida 2 execute spam (unfortunately this is more of a meme list than anything).

Finally, I really like the Carver classic look... If at some point I can get my hands on the mini, I'll field him outside of vassal (for all the hate he got, he's really hard to find)! 

My personal list of purple 9-11ss beater for Dora :

The Emissary 

Hinamatsu 

The Hooded Rider

The Carver

Teddy

Mature Nephilim 

Angel Eyes 

Thoon

Yep... the versatile are just better (not you Angel Eyes). This is purple sad truth. 

 

 

[LexLock]

I think you're way better off going for the hooded if you need ruthless, extra mobility is nice and his hazardous aura has way more synergy with pandora than anything the carver brings.

[SurreyLee]

So, i've played 2 games this week. One with Carver, one against him. Both times he's been....bang average. Now, admittedly I didn't run (or play against) him with Pandora so i've not seen the synergies, however, i've some further thoughts. 

He's not slow, per se, 5 being an average walk, but the 1 inch melee really hampers him. Coupled with a 50mm base, it can be awkward to properly position. Shears is good for a regular 3/3/5 damage track with the stat 7. Execute is always useful. 

Draw Essence didn't come up in either game. 

So currently, it's still all theoryfaux as to why I want to like him. Gah!

Thanks for all the comments. Some useful nuggets as always.

[Regelridderen]

2 hours ago, SurreyLee said:

...bang average.

And that’s pretty much it. For a 10 stone model he doesn’t really excel at anything, but he’s not outright bad. 

[Da Git]

If he were 9ss with no other changes, how would he compare to Hina then?

I agree with everyone else, in that I don't think he's bad, just a smidge over-costed. Other easy buffs would be to change his shears to Heavy shears 3/3/5dg and 2" reach (with no built in ram, so he could still be min 3 + either double crit, onslaught or execute).

[SurreyLee]

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

If he were 9ss with no other changes, how would he compare to Hina then?

I agree with everyone else, in that I don't think he's bad, just a smidge over-costed. Other easy buffs would be to change his shears to Heavy shears 3/3/5dg and 2" reach (with no built in ram, so he could still be min 3 + either double crit, onslaught or execute).

I think if he were given a 2inch melee range though, Feed on Fear would become too powerful, arguably. Which i suppose is also a discussion point about balancing models at all. 

[Nathan Sells]

49 minutes ago, SurreyLee said:

I think if he were given a 2inch melee range though, Feed on Fear would become too powerful, arguably. Which i suppose is also a discussion point about balancing models at all. 

While not totally equivalent, Teddy has a 2" engagement and Feed on Fear for the same cost and Chompy has it at cost "8", so there is some precedent. 

[BadLuckBear]

12 hours ago, LexLock said:

I think you're way better off going for the hooded if you need ruthless, extra mobility is nice and his hazardous aura has way more synergy with pandora than anything the carver brings.

That said, Pandy1 brings Despair's Influence, so she can push a friendly Woe 3" from a range of 10"at the cost of a card. You Then add the discarded suit to final duel totals, so that can make a big difference to Carver, especially with his Breath of Fire having Up In Flames on a crow. The extra 3" makes a huge difference to The Carver. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

One issue with relying on despair influence is you're then using a master ap for a small move and +1 damage.

When you could just hire a model with solid damage and then have a spare master action.

[Da Git]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One issue with relying on despair influence is you're then using a master ap for a small move and +1 damage.

When you could just hire a model with solid damage and then have a spare master action.

I agree with this. I'd say the bigger aspect of Despair's Influence is the 3" move, although I'm also the type of player who rarely purposefully goes crit strike. It's more of if it comes up, it comes up or if I have the suit, and I need to cheat anyway kind of thing. That said, if that extra pip will kill something that needs dead-ifying, then I'll absolutely go for it, but it's not my go to aim in life. Same as I still generally go soulstone lite (5-6 is my max, and my cache is often ~3).

If I were to do Despair's Influenece it would be more likely to be an execute spam kind of thing. Although if you are going to set up the Fast Carver, then yeah, that triple swing with min 4 is tasty...   Although, then it's like I could do similar things with a Fast Teddy, Rider, Kade, etc.

[Regelridderen]

Despair’s Influence is much better spend on Baby Kade. 

Dump a low for a Lure with Slow for an extra push/ping, followed up with two Stat7 Executes or just a  for two coordinated Teddy attacks.

With Carver I usually prefer a focused Breath of Fire and cheating a severe for 4. He’s more of crowd control model.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Despair’s Influence is much better spend on Baby Kade. 

Dump a low for a Lure with Slow for an extra push/ping, followed up with two Stat7 Executes or just a  for two coordinated Teddy attacks.

With Carver I usually prefer a focused Breath of Fire and cheating a severe for 4. He’s more of crowd control model.

I prefer the ram. Lure + sudden strike into stat 7 critical strikes is a possible 8 damage and a kidnap (on min damage).

[Jinn]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I prefer the ram. Lure + sudden strike into stat 7 critical strikes is a possible 8 damage and a kidnap (on min damage).

6 min, can't declare crit strike on the triggered attack.

edit: Or 10 min, with Pounce! I see what you mean, you're assuming three attacks with one crit strike on two of them! More reasonable.

[Antipodean]

On 3/29/2022 at 4:11 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Min 5 - just to make sure, you're not doing three rams for crit strike? Since it limits at +2 damage?

Oops yes you are correct, I was playing this wrong. I really should have known this coming from Guild. I have some opponents to apologise to, fortunately its only been friendly home games I've used him in so far

So easy min 4.... with either a decent ram card or a stone and decent other card. Agree with others usually not worth going for severe.