Help with Symbols and vs Zipp (Apex, Seeker, and Syndicate)

[RoivasO]

I’m a pretty new player and have picked up the Apex, Seeker, and Syndicate keywords. I’m starting to get to grips with most of the strategies but have been really struggling with Symbols of Authority, in particular against Zipp.

I just cannot seem to do anything to stop the insanely fast and quite tough Skeeters, First Mate, and Emissary from scoring.

In my most recent game I ran Syndicate, as they’re the only crew that really seems fast enough to do Symbols (and Infamous hard counters Apex), and while I could deal some damage and score some points, I wasn’t as quick as Infamous so it ended up not mattering.

The full pool for our game was:

Symbols of Authority

Corner Deployment

Assassinate

Let them Bleed

Detonate Charges

Outflank

Vendetta

The game ended 7-4 with my opponent scoring 4 for Symbols, 2 for Assassinate, and 1 for detonate while I scored 3 for Symbols and 1 for Vendetta (couldn't score Detonate as apparently stat 7 doesn't help against def 5 models).

I could definitely have played better, and I do not get Anya at all yet (her kit seems very counterproductive) but even if I had scored more, I couldn’t see a path to the win.

I was wondering if anyone had any tips for playing against Zipp in general? So far it seems pointless going after Zipp himself as he has permanent concealment, Disguised from the upgrade, and basically terrifying 10 that can’t be ignored, on top of soul stones.

I was thinking maybe Botanists as they have Planted Roots? But then none of my keywords can grow them and they can only block off a Symbol marker if it’s up against terrain.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[TeddyBear]

sorry for my english, i don't know if this could be useful in any way... but among your keywords i find seeker may have some suitable tricks against zipp. 

 - Jedza has a "terrains hitting attack", useful if someone from zipp's crew drops their piano markers. More better the "lost knowledge" that remove markers to make you draw. 

- Austera and twiggie have good mobility, and an attack that ignores the basic concealment (zipp, iron s, merris)

- The Damned is a piece that has a good amount of damage and could stay behind the first mate or otherwise go to make the schemes if necessary.

- Again as regards the schemes, the lamplighters have the possibility to score them even at a distance, even if they dedinitely do not have the infamous mobility.

- Generic advice, try to remove fast from the table Earl and the Iroon skeeters (it is not impossible and they are simpler than the First Mate: often with their mobility they score points by themselves)

 

[Rufess]

Firstly I do agree with you that Anya and Syndicate is the best choice within your collect to play in Symbols. Anya is a speedy master with all-rounded capability to do every Strategy and Schemes. There is a great thread in this sub-section discussing the keyword that you may want to have a look.

As for playing against Zipp, the most important thing to note is that Zipp is a control master who is mainly to disturb your plan and drain your resources if you trying to deal with him. So your best move would be ignoring him and going after the rest of his crew if you have cannot hardly counter him. Luckily Syndicate does have enough mobility to trace after the First Mate or Iron Skeeter.

And if you really want to keep Zipp honest, then Sovereign is you best bet. Zipp cannot attack it with Up We Go because of Flight, and his moderate damage gun is not the best attack to deal with Armor. Sovereign also has high Wp to bypass the Simple Duels generated from Zipp, and high Mv plus Fly with Me can help tracing him after the Df trigger.

Another point is that the main damage source of Anya is actually the Hazard effect instead of her Tomahawk. It passes through Df trigger, Stealth and Armor. And remember that even the Infamous models using Free Loot to remove the Scheme Marker, they will still suffer the Hazard effect from moving into it.

Lastly, controlling and denial masters are always frustrating to play with. Especially when you are a new player that might feel you can do nothing against him. So sometime it can be useful to ask the opponent how to deal with him or what can you do to limit his game plan. You may even ask him to swap the crew with you. Playing the keyword yourself can help you understand it more and discover strengths and weaknesses that you would never found out in the opposed side of the table. I believe most friendly players are happy to help you improving.

[RoivasO]

Thanks for the tips! 

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

i find seeker may have some suitable tricks against zipp.

I do like Seeker into Zipp, problem with this game was I just didn't think they were fast enough to get the scoring done? Maybe if I had taken some out of keyword models (Vernon and Welles and Cooper's dogs maybe?) it would have worked? I'm looking forward to trying Jedza in a game soon! 

 

1 hour ago, Rufess said:

Another point is that the main damage source of Anya is actually the Hazard effect instead of her Tomahawk.

I didn't get a lot of work out of hazardous this game. I did about 3 points to the Emissary when he came over to kill Anya but that was it. I'm guessing the main way Anya gets hazardous damage is to drop the marker with Bleeding Edge and Mass Hysteria and then Union Buster? The guaranteed 1 damage is nice but being 3/4/5 on her Tomahawk is good too. Definitely need to get more games in with Anya to work her out I think. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Surely Zipp has to be one of the rougher matchups.

This is not good for symbols, but from memory Machinist let's your crew ignore boring conversation.

Possible tip for the future.

[hydranixx]

If you're having trouble locking down your own Symbols in Syndicate, consider picking Anya2 (Rail Magnate) as your leader. I've found her summoning Drudges to be an efficient (and very cheap) way to guard Symbols - if you position the Symbol itself against a wall or rock, their 1" melee can defend the only part of the symbol that the opponent can interact with, and with 3 wounds, it takes more than token min 2 damage to remove them.

If you're not fond of Anya2 or just don't want to play with her until she's released, another option I've found to be useful are Surveyors. Their 2" reach is good enough to defend a Symbol as long as they're close to it, irrespective of walls, but the real value is creating Geodes with their Chronicle effect to partially or wholly block your Symbols. The Syndicate Keyword makes it easy to chip wounds off your own models with Price of Progress (My understanding is that you can do this whenever you take any action, even just Walking), which you can then heal back with Democratic Elections, Stand Together, Glory of Ridley, etc, triggering their Chronicle effect. If you take Yannic and prepare in advance with a Scheme Marker, then instead of Discarding for the Geode, you get to draw, which is just icing on the cake. 

Look for corners, walls, blocking debris of all kinds, or even just the table edge itself. That's where you should look to place the Symbols. Up against a table edge for example, two Geodes can seal it off completely from base-contact, or 1 Drudge in base contact with it can defend it against non-Don't Mind Me models, forcing your opponent to commit significantly more AP to securing those strat points. It can be a little clunky to get the sequencing and positioning right at first, but with a little practise, you can efficiently seal off at least 2 Symbols  while contesting your 3rd or 4th with models. Again, with their 2" engagement ranges, Surveyors make for an ideal candidate to protect friendly Symbols that are more exposed to the enemy.

I recently used a combination of Drudges & Geode method to great success in vassal world series against Zoraida, who hired the First Mate and THREE Silurids. I held them up long enough that I had ceded only 2 Strategy points by the end of turn 5.

On 3/26/2022 at 11:52 PM, RoivasO said:

Corner Deployment

Assassinate

Let them Bleed

Detonate Charges

Outflank

Vendetta

 

I would suggest that most of the time, Anya1 is too frail in Assassinate pools, given how close she wants to be to enemies to do her thing. I feel Anya2 is much safer with Assassinate on the cards, as she's able to hang back generating value just by being on the table without needing expose herself to danger.

 

[RoivasO]

On 3/26/2022 at 7:56 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Surely Zipp has to be one of the rougher matchups.

Zipp does seem super good into Symbols, especially on Corner Deployment. 

 

3 hours ago, hydranixx said:

consider picking Anya2 (Rail Magnate) as your leader.

That is definitely something I will look into. I've been avoiding titles so far as none of my crews have theirs's released yet and I'm not  huge fan of proxying models. I don't mind the master's themselves it's more the new models that I'm not find of proxying (and Anya2 really seems to need the Drudges. Maybe I'll try it out using the runaway models or something next time! 

 

3 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Look for corners, walls, blocking debris of all kinds, or even just the table edge itself.

How did I not think of this! Seems so obvious in hindsight. While speaking with my opponent after the game we did think the Surveyors would have been a good pick. At least Zipp would take some damage if he wanted to move them with Field of Steel up. 

 

4 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Anya1 is too frail in Assassinate pools

100% agreed. I knew I was giving up 2 points here, but I didn't think Apex or Seeker had the speed to get Symbols done. Another reason to try Anya2! 

[hydranixx]

On 3/29/2022 at 5:05 AM, RoivasO said:

Zipp does seem super good into Symbols, especially on Corner Deployment. 

 

That is definitely something I will look into. I've been avoiding titles so far as none of my crews have theirs's released yet and I'm not  huge fan of proxying models. I don't mind the master's themselves it's more the new models that I'm not find of proxying (and Anya2 really seems to need the Drudges. Maybe I'll try it out using the runaway models or something next time! 

 

How did I not think of this! Seems so obvious in hindsight. While speaking with my opponent after the game we did think the Surveyors would have been a good pick. At least Zipp would take some damage if he wanted to move them with Field of Steel up. 

 

100% agreed. I knew I was giving up 2 points here, but I didn't think Apex or Seeker had the speed to get Symbols done. Another reason to try Anya2! 

Yeah, I've been using Runaways/Eyes & Ears to proxy my Drudges in the meantime. It's not as nice as using the real models, but it gets the job done.

I think with Anya2, 1 Surveyor is close to essential. If you hit the Hazardous Terrain trigger (Price of Progress makes this easy) on Anya's New Order to the Surveyor, he can stack that with Field of Steel to have 2 separate Hazardous auras up, which makes him absolutely devastating in melee. Bonus points for pushing enemies around in his hazardous aura with his own melee trigger.

If you're going Anya2, and especially if you hire Yannic (which you should) you might also consider Vernon & Welles. They have some discard/interact synergy for the crew, but more importantly they give you a fast moving Schemer that can go forth and secure Symbols.

 

 

As an aside, I do also generally like Apex for Symbols of Authority. Both Artemis and Model 9 can be very fast to score or deny on their own, and can combo with Ullr's By Your Side to secure enemy markers, while you can position your own Symbols in the open where Lord Cooper can make it very dangerous to be. If you play Lord Cooper2 or take a Vatagi Huntsmen (which to be fair I try to avoid most of the time) you can also deploy Pit Traps around some of your Symbols to make them very costly to remove, in a similar manner to the Geodes.

That being said, just as you pointed out, I think Zipp in particular is a very difficult matchup for Lord Cooper. The only thing he's really got going for him in the match up is his Machete can cut through Terrain Markers to acquire  flips while he swings at models, so he can be surprisingly dangerous in melee if he's near Zipp's Pianos. 

[RoivasO]

On 3/26/2022 at 5:52 PM, TeddyBear said:

i find seeker may have some suitable tricks against zipp

I've been thinking a bit more about this, and have come into one big problem with this match up. Seeker needs to be all clumped up around Jedza to function at 100%, but Zipp can very easily move models out of Jedza's buddle (or just move Jedza herself), seriously reducing the effectiveness of the crew.  

I wonder if Jedza2, who can spread out a bit more, would be a better option? Plus using Dredge Up on piano markers seems quite funny to me.