Sad conclusion of tinkering with Molly 2: she just doesn't synergise very much with her keyword.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I'm arriving at the sad conclusion that Molly2 just doesn't really synergise with her keyword and you're better off going with out-of-keyword and versatile models. I feel like Archie + Night Terror (plus Molly & Machine) is plenty. I don't think you need more than 4 forgotten models is the conclusion I'm starting to reach.

Let's review her front of card...

Arcane Resevoir:
No particular synergy with Forgotten. I mean, Forgotten like having extra cards... But EVERY model likes having extra cards.

Fading (Loneliness):
Fading is just... Not generally very good value. It's nice incidental value when you're discarding cards anyway, but I don't think it's worth bending over backwards to make it happen unless you're doing something extreme (like sling-shotting a Night Terror 20 inches across the board and interacting).

Archie + Night Terror + Necrotic Machine feels like plenty of synergy for this ability to get some solid incidental value.

Hard to Wound & Protected (Forgotten):
You can just take Gwisin if you really need Take the Hit on her, but to be honest she doesn't really need assistance staying alive. She's a bit of a backline support model, she has hard to wound, she has self-healing, and to be honest if people are targeting her then they're ignoring the important models.

Parade of the Dead:
This isn't keyword locked. You know what's better than a rabble riser with 3 inches of movement and a focus? A good model with 3 inches of movement. You only have so many cards to discard, so you generally want to focus this ability on high-payoff models like Hanged.

And the back of card...

Leading Baton:
This doesn't have particular synergy with her keyword. What you really want is a crew that is adept at ignoring the damage. And while her crew can heal through it to an extent, they'd prefer to use that healing to recover from enemy attacks.

Sure, there's the mask trigger, but that's rarely worth even cheating a card for... Much less building for it.

Hanged are just MUCH better targets for this ability than anything in her keyword.

Parade Route:
This synergizes with slow models that need extra movement (like Hanged) and the ram trigger just gives stunningly good results.

Thanks to the concealment issue with night terrors, you really don't want them to be your only plan for Walk with Pride... And nothing else in the keyword synergizes better with the Rams trigger than out-of-keyword models.

Sure, you can get that incidental value from discard... But fading isn't worth warping your list around IMO. Archie + Night Terror is plenty of fading value when you need it.

Positive Reinforcement:
Ah, a keyword locked ability! But even this is pretty irrelevant to the crew. Thanks to the concealment issue with night terrors, the single best target for focus in the keyword is Molly herself...

Also let's her threaten severe 6 on enemies, so they have to respect her when focus stacked.

Remember the Lost:
This is the ability that really made me think she needed to be in keyword for a long time.

But it is so CLUNKY.

It forces you to activate Molly early, but you really want her scoring potential saved for later in the turn. It is a very unreliable ability, and really is only good in huge volumes. But that requires warping your entire crew around this ability.

So I thought what if I just use it for Night Terror + necrotic machine (two models that are good at proccing the incidental card draw) and Molly herself and essentially ignore the ability other than that. Turns out that gives good results.

So what models do I think do work well with Molly 2?
Well, I think the ol' Manos/Archie/Dead Rider combo will likely have some scope to be awesome.

You want models that synergise with leading baton. Hanged seem pretty fantastic there.

Tanky models are great with her. Again Hanged can be good, and I'm even considering Grave Golem... Any models that can stick around and give her continual Ram Trigger targets with Parade Route throughout the game.

2 inch engagement does pair really well with her, so I may try experimenting with the Noxious more... But in my last game, it essentially went toe-to-toe with a necropunk for 3 turns straight (playing cat and mouse trying to control a marker and beat it to death). Was not impressed.

Will do some more testing.

My last list was:

• Hanged with GST
• Hanged with GST
• Philip and the Nanny
• Noxious Nephilim
• Night Terror

My thinking was that Philip and Night Terror and Hanged put INTENSE hand pressure on the opponent.

It was pretty good, but ultimately Philip and the Night Terror just die once the opponent is able to commit resources to them. I felt like my front line collapsed by turn 3 and then he just ran away with the game.

So I reached the sad conclusion of dropping Philip and will likely return to a modified version of my original Molly builds: four solid beaters and one Forgotten scheme runner should do the trick.

[Shakyor]

Ah I am learning her as well right now, to be honest mostly because I want her to be cool. However, also because I think Leading Baton is objectively a great and unique effect!

Your Idea of pairing her with hanged is great and so obvious, yet it didnt gross my mind. I also agree that Protected feels cute on her, because Forgotten is just not the right Keyword for it.

What I have to say: Forgotten Marshal is amazing with her, she has the card draw to finally make him work. I also dont understand why people dont like Rabble Risers, I think they are certainly above average Models and great summons. As a Von Schtook Main I have often picked Forgotten Marshal OOK with him (before Upgrade Errata, since it was the only way to get slow summons with an upgrade to utilize Von Schtook other than 2nd Master Kirai) and they have empressed me. There Damage Adds up, they are tanky enough to definitley eat more ressources than they cost and challenge can be situationally great.

On the other hand I have no idea why people play Phillip and the Nanny, I have experimented with him with Molly 1 and I honestly think he is total Garbage with little to no redeeming qualities.

[Maniacal_cackle]

22 minutes ago, Shakyor said:

What I have to say: Forgotten Marshal is amazing with her, she has the card draw to finally make him work. I also dont understand why people dont like Rabble Risers, I think they are certainly above average Models and great summons. As a Von Schtook Main I have often picked Forgotten Marshal OOK with him (before Upgrade Errata, since it was the only way to get slow summons with an upgrade to utilize Von Schtook other than 2nd Master Kirai) and they have empressed me. There Damage Adds up, they are tanky enough to definitley eat more ressources than they cost and challenge can be situationally great.

I agree Forgotten Marshal has felt good when I hire it (most of the time). Occasionally I have a game where I just draw no crows and it just isn't doing any work for me (and often Molly doesn't want to spend her activation digging for cards).

But also I don't feel it is a must hire, so I'm exploring other options at the moment. In my keyword-focused builds, Forgotten Marshal definitely felt like one of the best options.

If summons could do the strategy, I would 100% hire him.

23 minutes ago, Shakyor said:

On the other hand I have no idea why people play Phillip and the Nanny, I have experimented with him with Molly 1 and I honestly think he is total Garbage with little to no redeeming qualities.

Philip and the Nanny I hire very rarely, but for one specific purpose I've found that works: When I need a second crooligan beacon beyond Archie.

Philip is so mobile (14-29 inches of movement a turn), so can often provide some serious scoring power in extremely niche circumstances. I think I hire them like 1/20 games xD

[Metalhed]

Philip was good in the old plant explosives strategy. You could put them in really hard to reach places. 
 

I still think Phil should get an errata to be df 6 to give something different to the keyword. 
 

I wish that remember the lost was till next activation or something. Her design is just so disjointed. 

[unti]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Positive Reinforcement:
Ah, a keyword locked ability! But even this is pretty irrelevant to the crew. Thanks to the concealment issue with night terrors, the single best target for focus in the keyword is Molly herself.

It's a tactical so concealing shouldn't be an issue, or am I playing that rule wrong?

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, unti said:

It's a tactical so concealing shouldn't be an issue, or am I playing that rule wrong?

 

The concealment issue with Night Terrors is that when you use the Parade Route attack on them, you suffer from concealing

So you can either save a stone or a focus to get past it when you want to parade route your night terror.

[Shakyor]

I really hope they errata this, it really is awkawrd.

[unti]

Ah now I get your comment...

I think she is kind of clonky with night terrors, but she is able to speed up your crew and throw a rogue and the noxious in your opponents face and that's kind of fun. In my games in turn two she just walks up and puts on her aura to enable easier cheating. It also forces your opponent to cheat his probably irrelevant low df-flips because of my possible card draw. 

While those three keep the opponent occupied, Philip and a night terror scheme somewhere away from the action...

I just don't use Parade route on a night terror very often... Worked for me, but I'm definitely not a competitive player 😃

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, unti said:

Ah now I get your comment...

I think she is kind of clonky with night terrors, but she is able to speed up your crew and throw a rogue and the noxious in your opponents face and that's kind of fun. In my games in turn two she just walks up and puts on her aura to enable easier cheating. It also forces your opponent to cheat his probably irrelevant low df-flips because of my possible card draw. 

While those three keep the opponent occupied, Philip and a night terror scheme somewhere away from the action...

I just don't use Parade route on a night terror very often... Worked for me, but I'm definitely not a competitive player 😃

Yeah, last game I didn't use it on a night terrors once.

I did have to use it on models in concealing terrain three times though xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just played a mostly keyword list:

• Archie
• Rogue necro
• Noxious neph
• Sloth w/ GST
• Night Terror
• Crooligan
• 4 stones

It felt... Pretty good? But also just defense 4 on all three of my critical beaters was soooo rough. He was able to chew through them very efficiently, although it did buy some time for Molly to run around scoring so got me a tie.

On the bright side, fast noxious & rogue necro do some work... I'm just not convinced it is the best option. 

The upside of having a crooligan to play with because of the in-keyword savings was nice... But I'm not sure it was that critical to success compared to just better models xD

[Shakyor]

Hmm yeah I know what you mean, that List sounds fine - but it too find experimenting with Molly 2 Lists that always something seems to be missing and it is just always clunky. I am also starting to suspect Molly 1 ist just superior.

I am Curious about GST on Sloth though - his Bonus Action is pretty much the best thing about him right? And I am sure Regeneration is finde, but it seems to me like these points could be better spent.

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, Shakyor said:

Hmm yeah I know what you mean, that List sounds fine - but it too find experimenting with Molly 2 Lists that always something seems to be missing and it is just always clunky. I am also starting to suspect Molly 1 ist just superior.

I am Curious about GST on Sloth though - his Bonus Action is pretty much the best thing about him right? And I am sure Regeneration is finde, but it seems to me like these points could be better spent.

Turn one you don't need his bonus action so you can use GST.

After that, Molly likes to punch him to move him around the board, so the regen helps.

[unti]

So does anybody know how the timing is when Molly pushes jakuuna with her already turned on drowning aura with her parade route in a group of enemies and a crooked sees them? Is the hazardous effect (1dam plus staggered) first and then the MV duel or is it first the MV duel and then hazardous?

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, unti said:

So does anybody know how the timing is when Molly pushes jakuuna with her already turned on drowning aura with her parade route in a group of enemies and a crooked sees them? Is the hazardous effect (1dam plus staggered) first and then the MV duel or is it first the MV duel and then hazardous?

Moving a hazardous aura does not cause a hazardous effect to take place. 

There are 3 things that causes hazardous, resolving an action in , moving through, and a hazardous marker moving through you. A hazardous aura moving doesn't meet any of those ( otherwise models like mei would kill everyone just by being pushed).

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Tried this today:

• Molly 2
• Manos
• Archie
• Hanged with GST
• Hanged with GST
• Crooligan
• 5 stones

And it was just so much better than every other build I tried so far >.< Played it on standard break the line.

Looks like it is back to the ol' reliable "Archie + crooligan and a bunch of things from the rest of the faction" xD

The Hanged synergy just feels unreal with her, though. And I can certainly imagine some pools where I'd be happy swapping out Manos.

Gotta test her on leyliness next.

[Shakyor]

Hmm here being so scheme heavy, can you see swapping out manos for Forgotten marshal + Whisper?

This does seem like a great list! Although At this point I am not sure when I would actually want to play Molly 2 over Jack daw, I mean its not like Jack Daw is a bad master and this seems a little like locking in the Master you wanna play first even though it might be unnatural for the list you are trying - If you know what I mean.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Shakyor said:

Hmm here being so scheme heavy, can you see swapping out manos for Forgotten marshal + Whisper?

This does seem like a great list! Although At this point I am not sure when I would actually want to play Molly 2 over Jack daw, I mean its not like Jack Daw is a bad master and this seems a little like locking in the Master you wanna play first even though it might be unnatural for the list you are trying - If you know what I mean.

Forgotten marshal is good, but since the summons can't do the strategy I don't think they contribute enough.

For Jack Daw comparisons...

First off I don't think it is a good comparison as you might declare Molly for any number of reasons. This is just one option alongside a dozen Molly 1 lists you have available for any given game.

You might build this list if you see your opponent is vulnerable to terrifying after declaring masters (like marcus).

Second, compared to Jack Daw this crew had a LOT more interact power and mobility. 

In a game we just played, a vendetta Hanged got over 20 extra inches of movement over the course of the game from Molly's support.

That is a different kind of enabler than Jack Daw, so can do things Jack Daw can't. But if you see a straight punch them in the face pool, Jack is better than Molly.

[Maniacal_cackle]

To elaborate on forgotten marshal...

I like him in the crew just when analyzing him by himself.

But I can't find a list where he fits into the wider gameplan AND I'm happy with the list overall. 

[Metalhed]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Forgotten marshal is good, but since the summons can't do the strategy I don't think they contribute enough.

For Jack Daw comparisons...

First off I don't think it is a good comparison as you might declare Molly for any number of reasons. This is just one option alongside a dozen Molly 1 lists you have available for any given game.

You might build this list if you see your opponent is vulnerable to terrifying after declaring masters (like marcus).

Second, compared to Jack Daw this crew had a LOT more interact power and mobility. 

In a game we just played, a vendetta Hanged got over 20 extra inches of movement over the course of the game from Molly's support.

That is a different kind of enabler than Jack Daw, so can do things Jack Daw can't. But if you see a straight punch them in the face pool, Jack is better than Molly.

Would agree on the jack assessment. It is hard to find the time and actions in a jack crew to actually. Yes hanged have the trigger but it’s a crew desperate for the stones. 
 

This brings a very different playstyle to the hanged. 

[Shakyor]

After my last game with Molly 2 I really wanna experiment more with parade of the dead, if i get the right opponent and pool I think I wanna play a list centered around abusing 2" engagement range.

The nephilim plus toshiro seem like a strong start for this, consdering how to go further with this. But the idea basically being to to have lots of 2" and using parade of the dead to always keep as many enemies awkardly engaged as possible.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Shakyor said:

After my last game with Molly 2 I really wanna experiment more with parade of the dead, if i get the right opponent and pool I think I wanna play a list centered around abusing 2" engagement range.

The nephilim plus toshiro seem like a strong start for this, consdering how to go further with this. But the idea basically being to to have lots of 2" and using parade of the dead to always keep as many enemies awkardly engaged as possible.

I've thought about this possibility as well, so glad someone is going to try it!

Also 2" Ashigaru can Take the Hit on noxious nephilim, which helps make up for how easily it dies.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@OracleToronto, this is the thread I mean.

[OracleToronto]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@OracleToronto, this is the thread I mean.

Thanks - I’m curious what is it that the Hanged do so well with Molly2? Or are they just solid models in any crew and so “can” fit in with her 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, OracleToronto said:

Thanks - I’m curious what is it that the Hanged do so well with Molly2? Or are they just solid models in any crew and so “can” fit in with her 

Hanged really benefit from parade of the Dead, parade route, and baton. They don't take damage on a weak, and it is just a huge amount of mobility (and being able to exit engagement is really good for their gun).

In return, Molly gets a tanky model that stays alive so she can keep using the rams trigger on parade route. And also a bit of card draw from the hanged.

[ShinChan]

I have 5 games with Molly2 so far and my main complain is:

Lack of good fading abilities.

For a keyword that is based on discarding cards (the most precious resource in Malifaux after number of actions, also old called "AP"), they don't get really good benefits out of it. With Molly1 you don't have that much of a problem, because she's not focusing on maximizing fading abilities, just to support her crew (which at least 50% is gonna be OOK models) and annoy/threat the opponent.

On top of that, some of the models that have decent fading abilities (only Night Terrors and up to a certain point Archie and Necrotic Machine), the most interesting one with Molly CC would be the one from the Night Terrors, and those are the models that shoot themselves in the foot (or the claw) by having perma-concealment.

Add to that that most models in keyword are Df4, with only one poorly designed henchman. Focus is not really that good in the crew due to the best target for it (Archie) can't gain conditions.

IMHO, the minimum fix to Molly CC would be to make Parade Route ignore concealment. I wouldn't her having also stat 6 in the Leading Baton action, for God's sake, she's a master!

Noxius Neph is an okay addition to the crew, but without a meaningful  action and easy to predict where he goes and just avoid him or kill him. The Last Memory "engine" is too action intensive to be worth it, and anyways, you don't get that much benefit from high cards when what you usually want is cards to discard. Most of the time there isn't any point on wasting actions to cycle cards.

I do agree that the Forgotten Marshall has a place in the crew, but mainly because of lack of better options in keyword (and if you're a keyword sucker like me, you wanna maximize in-keyword picks), but he's not better with Molly CC than with Molly 1, probably event the opposite. But the worst thing about him is that he doesn't even have a Fading ability, which if it were a half decent one, it could be a reason to play him, instead of just because I wanna play in keyword.

 

Do you know who actually plays with Fading? Perdita 2. When someone in her crew discards a card, the crew generates:

• 1/2/3 heal on any model within 6" of the Guild Mage
• Out of activation 4" push model (which is amazing to interacts after)
• Gains a Focus
• Draws a card

Now, that's an amazing (too good if you ask me) Fading setup, and they don't even have to use an action or anything to trigger all of that. Not that much variety as Forgotten's Fadings, but definitely way better.