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Hot take - New book didn't do enough to unstagnate the previous game *


ooshawn

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3 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

I can't be one of these yes men to wyrd. If I see something I don't agree with, i'm gonna speak up

I mean... I think I am one of the most prolific complainers on here.

I just don't necessarily agree with your takes xD

That said, ditching the physical card approach is probably something that needs to happen eventually, but I don't think the physical community is ready for it.

That said, if Wyrd pitched it as ditching cards means we can be more flexible with errata and try Stat changes of 1 here and there... I suspect suddenly support would grow.

So I think they need to look that direction eventually.

There are also methods to edit cards in real life (for example stickers), but I don't know what I think of that.

Also wyrd says playtesting changes is incredibly time consuming. So there is likely a limit to how much they can playtest.

And while they could start just pushing out changes without playtesting, I don't think that sounds like a good idea.

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Just now, ooshawn said:

I wasn't calling you  a yes man, only saying I couldn't be one of those people. you are right there with me on the front lines . you just speak more eloquently than me.

XD fair enough.

I am on the same page as you regarding cards. I'd prefer just ditching them.

But... 90% of the physical players I know STRONGLY prefer having physical cards to play (to the point that many tournaments require physical cards).

So then if cards have to be a thing, the cost of altering them had to be considered.

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that's another reason to me, it's like you already changed 2-3 erratas worth of models, the deck is useless at that point.  anything good isn't 50-60% complete. why bother at that point. I like cards a lot too, because they are right there in front of you, nothing has to load up, you don't have to search for anything. I think that's just done though. nobody is playing like that, even games workshop and warmachine have apps now. a smart phone that runs the app is 50 bucks brand new at wal mart for att prepaid. that's not even a used phone that you could install the app on

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Personally, I find Vassal annoyingly clunky to use and vastly prefer playing over the board.  And flipping back and forth on my phone between the rules, the scoring and the cards sounds like, frankly, a colossal pain the backside.

That aside, though...I'm sorry, OP, but competitive anything inevitably comes down to a handful of mathematically optimized options being all you see 90% of the time.  Bring all the lagging models up to snuff, some of the current hotness disappears, and eventually we're back where we started.  That's just how that environment works.

So frankly, if you want variety, you'd do better to play casual games against casual players.  Or come to terms with the fact you're mostly going to play against the same stuff all the time.

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10 minutes ago, Noxious Nephlim said:

there's also the option of Tabletop Simulator.

not nearly as many people use it, but i've found it to be pretty straightforward to use, looks nicer, and the stat cards can be read in tabletop sim

I haven't tried Malifaux on there, but my one experiment with X Wing proved...disappointing.  Or maybe I just need a tutorial.

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2 minutes ago, clockworkspide said:

I haven't tried Malifaux on there, but my one experiment with X Wing proved...disappointing.  Or maybe I just need a tutorial.

i'd be more than happy to show you around in it if interested.

tho do keep in mind, it seems most people prefer vassal currently, and TTS being paid might contribute to that if you're considering it for looking for random people to play with.

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2 hours ago, Noxious Nephlim said:

i'd be more than happy to show you around in it if interested.

tho do keep in mind, it seems most people prefer vassal currently, and TTS being paid might contribute to that if you're considering it for looking for random people to play with.

Already bought it for aforementioned X-Wing experiment.  And thanks;  I'll keep that in mind for the future.

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6 hours ago, clockworkspide said:

That aside, though...I'm sorry, OP, but competitive anything inevitably comes down to a handful of mathematically optimized options being all you see 90% of the time.  Bring all the lagging models up to snuff, some of the current hotness disappears, and eventually we're back where we started.  That's just how that environment works.

Meh, no, this is false.  Starcraft 2 is balanced to the point where every single unit in the game might be built at some point or another.  Star Wars: Rebellion could see pretty much anything seeing play in the right circumstance if it fits a role.  And Eclipse 2E I don't have experience with enough yet, but I'd be willing to bet most of it is balanced from some pretty competitive initial plays.

What you've discovered is something different - most games are poorly balanced.  In fact this is so endemic that people will actually argue that somehow this is inevitable (rather than admit that some of their favorite games are not written by people who are very good at balancing games, I guess?).

Logically as long as the game is complex enough that there are a variety of roles available for something, the game can have as many balanced models as there are unique niches to fill.  Malifaux is very, very, very far from filling every possible unique niche for models (and that's before we mention that crews can invent new mechanics to have new unique niches to fill). 

Just because another game does something poorly is no reason Malifaux has to copy that.  Malifaux didn't copy dice, did it? 

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11 hours ago, ooshawn said:

I can't be one of these yes men to wyrd. If I see something I don't agree with, i'm gonna speak up

Nothing wrong with ‘speaking up’, but…

Calling everyone else ‘yes-men’ for disagreeing with you only achieves for you to be taken as seriously as the average Trumpeteering Flatearth Anti-vaxxer 😏

-

And don’t take this game too seriously. Who cares if a few models are sub-optimal for a time, there are a hundred alternatives. Wyrd isn’t afraid to do revisions - and even though we might not agree with these, it is in the end subjective, and if we otherwise like the game, these are the rules we’ll need to use.

NB : keeping your cards up to date really isn’t much of a problem, the errata’ed cards are published with the Gaining Grounds sets. 

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I can't believe people are making comparisons to LoL and Starcraft with a straight face here. LoL has a 100 million players a month. That matters. Expecting the same level of balance from a game like this just goes to show that the person making the comparison has no clue what they're talking about. Sheesh.

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Well someone has no clue what he's talking about indeed. Games do not need 100 million players to be balanced.  There's plenty of board games that are very well balanced and often sell 30-50k copies.  This idea that it takes "100 million players" to make a decently balanced game is just nonsensical.  A game with 100 players gets there the same way a game with 100 million does - big changes and little tweaks until everything works right.  100 million players might explore the play space slightly faster, but nothing about that changes the process - just the speed its executed at. 

But then we circle back to one of my earlier posts here. 

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<Mod Hat>

I am locking this thread because there are too many instances of people being rude to and about other users.

I repeat, if you can't make a point without having to insult a specific person or group of people, then don't make the point. if what you write could be taken as offensive to some people, then assume those people will read it, and be offended, so don't post it in that style.

If you want to open a new thread discussing any of the topics raised in this thread, you are welcome to do so, but BE POLITE to others

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