Jump to content

Tips for a Rookie with Dreamer


Daniel Cruz

Recommended Posts

Hello everyone, I dont play much Malifaux, several years ago I played a couple of games, but this i hardly played.

 

i Have made a large part of The Dreamer gang and its version Insomniac, that seem to me to be fantastic miniatures aesthetically. I’m missing things like Teddy, Serena and Insidious Madness.

 

That’s why, if it’s not a bother, i would like the most veterans to talk to ne about it, both about tips for playing it, lists or fun things that can be done with it.

 

Thank you very much in advance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically there's two routes to go with original Dreamer:

You can go enforcer/henchman heavy. This is what I do (basically snag 4 henchmen/enforcers from the keyword, 2 daydreams with ancient pact, and 5-7 stones for your cache). My favourite list:

  • Dreamer & Chompy
  • Teddy
  • Widow Weaver
  • Bandersnatch
  • Serena Bowman
  • Daydream with Ancient Pact
  • Daydream with Ancient Pact
  • Stones for summoning, damage reduction, other suits as needed.

What's nice about this build is it starts out pretty powerful, and has a lot of good tools to unbury the minions that are summoned (especially Terrorize is absolutely fantastic). The two spiders together make an incredible pair for trying to score points while the rest of your team handles the enemy crew.

Or you can go heavier into the minions. This lets you play more into Lucid Dreams, but that has been nerfed. But you still get a lot of extra cards to power up your stitched.

For Insomniac you're almost certainly looking to do lots of lucid dreams (you probably need 4-6 in your list).

Just my take anyway!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Basically there's two routes to go with original Dreamer:

You can go enforcer/henchman heavy. This is what I do (basically snag 4 henchmen/enforcers from the keyword, 2 daydreams with ancient pact, and 5-7 stones for your cache). My favourite list:

  • Dreamer & Chompy
  • Teddy
  • Widow Weaver
  • Bandersnatch
  • Serena Bowman
  • Daydream with Ancient Pact
  • Daydream with Ancient Pact
  • Stones for summoning, damage reduction, other suits as needed.

What's nice about this build is it starts out pretty powerful, and has a lot of good tools to unbury the minions that are summoned (especially Terrorize is absolutely fantastic). The two spiders together make an incredible pair for trying to score points while the rest of your team handles the enemy crew.

Or you can go heavier into the minions. This lets you play more into Lucid Dreams, but that has been nerfed. But you still get a lot of extra cards to power up your stitched.

For Insomniac you're almost certainly looking to do lots of lucid dreams (you probably need 4-6 in your list).

Just my take anyway!

So the First Dreamer is based on wearing strong models? Note That i Thought that his mechanic would be Lucid Dream, to remove cards from the deck, but then i saw his own Vivids Nightmares rule, which forces you to return half of the cards so i really did not understand much the uselfulness of his rule.

And the Insomniac seemed more complicate to play at first glance, but much more support and with more mobilitie, Ithink that this version, i will like to play more, especially for being able to revive Chompy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Daniel Cruz said:

So the First Dreamer is based on wearing strong models? Note That i Thought that his mechanic would be Lucid Dream, to remove cards from the deck, but then i saw his own Vivids Nightmares rule, which forces you to return half of the cards so i really did not understand much the uselfulness of his rule.

And the Insomniac seemed more complicate to play at first glance, but much more support and with more mobilitie, Ithink that this version, i will like to play more, especially for being able to revive Chompy.

Vivid nightmares was added as a bandaid solution to how broken lucid dreams turned out to be.

Some people even like to get Dreamer killed turn 2 so that they can lucid dream harder xD

So the reason it seems like lucid dreams doesn't work with dreamer is that it doesn't really make much sense anymore since the change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Vivid nightmares was added as a bandaid solution to how broken lucid dreams turned out to be.

Some people even like to get Dreamer killed turn 2 so that they can lucid dream harder xD

So the reason it seems like lucid dreams doesn't work with dreamer is that it doesn't really make much sense anymore since the change.

Seriously, so that´s why the rule didn´t fit me. Kill the dreamer? How sad it seems.

I understand that if it´s a very powerful mechanic they nerf it but from there to cancel it, because i really don´t see who takes advantage of that, you can remove 4-6 cards per turn, and you have to return half in the end there comes a point where you get stuck and you can´t get more and lost free actions,  especially when the free action of almost the entire band is to enhance that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Daniel Cruz said:

So the First Dreamer is based on wearing strong models? Note That i Thought that his mechanic would be Lucid Dream, to remove cards from the deck, but then i saw his own Vivids Nightmares rule, which forces you to return half of the cards so i really did not understand much the uselfulness of his rule.

And the Insomniac seemed more complicate to play at first glance, but much more support and with more mobilitie, Ithink that this version, i will like to play more, especially for being able to revive Chompy.

The first dreamer is a summoner, which means that its often worth hiring the best possible critical models for your crew, and then use the summoned models to fill in gaps. As such you are often less likely to hire the models that you can later summon in anyway. (The down side is you will want to own most of the possible summons to get he best out of this, and knowing what you want to summon in any given situation is harder to learn). 

If you really push the lucid dreams approach it was possible to be removing 8-10 cards a turn. With the addition of Vivid nightmares it requires you to keep using it to keep the bad cards out of the deck. Its still a very useful mechanic, as you can be looking at keeping half the weak cards out of the deck (if you really focus on it). This is a lot stronger than people think at first because the most common damage flip is done at :-flipso you flip 2 cards and pick the lowest. that results in about 60% of those flips being weak if you have a normal deck. A deck with half the number of weak cards is something like 40%. 

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My lynchpin is the Insidious Madness.

They’re fast, so they’re great for running schemes.

They have a Stat6 vs WP, meaning they are great healers for the rest of your crew.

But more importantly. They’re able to pacify even the toughest opponents by handing out Distracted - and from across the board. So even if they end up away from everything in order to grab a symbol or something, they will still have an effect on the fighting.

You’ll often hear players lament on how Dreamer, Serena and Stitched got nerfed, but Insidious Madness became some if the most powerful models in the game with the changes to Focus/Distracted.

-

I like to bring in Candy OOK, although she’s lacking the keyword Candy is a true nightmare. 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Adran said:

The first dreamer is a summoner, which means that its often worth hiring the best possible critical models for your crew, and then use the summoned models to fill in gaps. As such you are often less likely to hire the models that you can later summon in anyway. (The down side is you will want to own most of the possible summons to get he best out of this, and knowing what you want to summon in any given situation is harder to learn). 

If you really push the lucid dreams approach it was possible to be removing 8-10 cards a turn. With the addition of Vivid nightmares it requires you to keep using it to keep the bad cards out of the deck. Its still a very useful mechanic, as you can be looking at keeping half the weak cards out of the deck (if you really focus on it). This is a lot stronger than people think at first because the most common damage flip is done at :-flipso you flip 2 cards and pick the lowest. that results in about 60% of those flips being weak if you have a normal deck. A deck with half the number of weak cards is something like 40%. 

 

So I see that what you really need to know is how you want to guide him if Lucid Dream or take the strongest minions supported by summons, I will have to try both options, if it is true that I see it quite hard to maintain the management of Lucid dream that you mention.

And about Insomniac, what advice can you give me? I have seen that it is quite recent.

By the way, thank you all very much for all the help and information you give me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

My lynchpin is the Insidious Madness.

They’re fast, so they’re great for running schemes.

They have a Stat6 vs WP, meaning they are great healers for the rest of your crew.

But more importantly. They’re able to pacify even the toughest opponents by handing out Distracted - and from across the board. So even if they end up away from everything in order to grab a symbol or something, they will still have an effect on the fighting.

You’ll often hear players lament on how Dreamer, Serena and Stitched got nerfed, but Insidious Madness became some if the most powerful models in the game with the changes to Focus/Distracted.

-

I like to bring in Candy OOK, although she’s lacking the keyword Candy is a true nightmare. 

The truth is that the Insidious Madness seems to me to be a magnificent miniature at the modeling level,

I am glad to know that they are very useful. I have to get hold of the models that are hard for me to get.

The Stiched, what have you nerfed? because starting to play now, I have only seen their current rules.

By the way, I've seen that no one mentions Copelius, how is he?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Daniel Cruz said:

The truth is that the Insidious Madness seems to me to be a magnificent miniature at the modeling level,

I am glad to know that they are very useful. I have to get hold of the models that are hard for me to get.

The Stiched, what have you nerfed? because starting to play now, I have only seen their current rules.

By the way, I've seen that no one mentions Copelius, how is he?

Stitched, their Gamble Your Life ability was reworked and a few other things, but they're still incredibly good models. It was more of a just smoothing out some major problems than big changes.

Also dreamer used to be able to summon them and now cannot.

Coppelius - his problem is being a good model surrounded by GREAT models. He can usually do some pretty great and useful stuff, but for any given role he is outshined by a model that is fantastic at the role. You absolutely can win games with him though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Daniel Cruz said:

am glad to know that they are very useful. I have to get hold of the models that are hard for me to get

Madness are great and they'll make most of my Dreamer 2 list. The models are nice and super fun to paint (all those eyes are so cool), but they're a pain to assemble.

8 minutes ago, Daniel Cruz said:

The Stiched, what have you nerfed?

The current version is in the app. They change how gamble your life and the ability to reuse cards from your removed from the game pile work. They also lower their defense if I remember well.

9 minutes ago, Daniel Cruz said:

By the way, I've seen that no one mentions Copelius, how is he?

He's... fine. I use him in casual game because I like the model. He's a great schemer hunter... You don't really need him tough. 

You have better beater and better utility models, so he kind of doesn't have a chair in most list. 

Having said that. If you don't own the spider and/or Hina, he'll work just fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Daniel Cruz said:

So I see that what you really need to know is how you want to guide him if Lucid Dream or take the strongest minions supported by summons, I will have to try both options, if it is true that I see it quite hard to maintain the management of Lucid dream that you mention.

And about Insomniac, what advice can you give me? I have seen that it is quite recent.

By the way, thank you all very much for all the help and information you give me.

I know less about insomniac, but in general I think you use lucid dreams to try and craft a strong hand for your big hitters to activate and use in the middle of the turn. I think you can basically get a second hand full of the best cards of your deck, but you need to manage the timings of the activations to get the best out of the second hand.

Whilst I've described2 different play styles for the first dreamer, they aren't entirely exclusive. You will probably find you get the most if you do a bit of each. But it's a good idea to try each as an extreme to try and understand them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:
  • Daydream with Ancient Pact
  • Daydream with Ancient Pact

Just curious, why Daydreams over Wicked Dolls?

Is it thematics? Or is Lead Nightmare and Lucid Dreams just better than what the Dolls provide?

Figure Stealth and Incorporeal are a wash, Creep Along almost makes up for the movement difference (Incorporeal makes the Daydream superior, obviously), but Threaten, especially given it's ability to outdistance Stealth, seems like a good option.

But for the most part, it's that Dolls aren't insignificant. Spending 10SS for +2 Cards, +2 Init is all well and good, but doing it and having two models that can do Interact actions seems better?

And you can always summon in the Daydreams if needed, no?

It's possible probable I'm missing something important, but to be fair, I'm bad at this game. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Just curious, why Daydreams over Wicked Dolls?

Is it thematics? Or is Lead Nightmare and Lucid Dreams just better than what the Dolls provide?

Figure Stealth and Incorporeal are a wash, Creep Along almost makes up for the movement difference (Incorporeal makes the Daydream superior, obviously), but Threaten, especially given it's ability to outdistance Stealth, seems like a good option.

But for the most part, it's that Dolls aren't insignificant. Spending 10SS for +2 Cards, +2 Init is all well and good, but doing it and having two models that can do Interact actions seems better?

And you can always summon in the Daydreams if needed, no?

It's possible probable I'm missing something important, but to be fair, I'm bad at this game. :)

Lead Nightmare is REALLY good in my view. Not only is it extra movement for your models early game, but later in the game it can be super clutch getting your 2" engagement models back to 2" so they are free and the opponent is pinned down.

Also their attack is probably the best direct attack in the game for a 3 stone model.

Also they're Nightmare Keyword so Dreamer can drop attacks onto them if necessary. Not optimal, but a nice option to have.

That said, I haven't tested wicked dolls with this build. I can definitely imagine against shooty crews, the stealth might just trump it. But I'm not a fan of wicked dolls + ancient pacts as that's so many stones to spend on models that then have to do a ton of heavy lifting.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I stopped using Daydreams after the nerf to Dreamer1 Lucid Dreaming. But before that they were perfect for support, re-arranging your models and thinning your deck. By turn 3+, when you'd weeded out the weak cards from your deck, they started to punch way above their weight, and if your opponent cheated against them, it meant he had no cards for the heavy hitters.

Now my Ancient Pact goes to my Insidious Madnesses. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Just curious, why Daydreams over Wicked Dolls?

Lead nighmare and more LD outshine what the dolls can bring.

Also, their attack that bypass armor and incorporeal can be tech.

Finally I like that they're insignificant in some situations (that make them great at murdering a suspect Martyrs target for example). 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all very much for your comments, this week I'm testing the dreamer against a friend who is starting with Kaeris.

I'll try this list, I still need to get some Insidious Madness so I'm going with what I have.

 

-The Dreamer

-Lord Chompy Bits (inhuman Reflexes)

-Daydream (Ancient Pact)

-Daydream (Ancient Pact)

-Coppelius

-Teddy

-Stiched together

-Stiched Together

 

7 Stones

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Daniel Cruz said:

Thank you all very much for your comments, this week I'm testing the dreamer against a friend who is starting with Kaeris.

I'll try this list, I still need to get some Insidious Madness so I'm going with what I have.

 

-The Dreamer

-Lord Chompy Bits (inhuman Reflexes)

-Daydream (Ancient Pact)

-Daydream (Ancient Pact)

-Coppelius

-Teddy

-Stiched together

-Stiched Together

 

7 Stones

Good luck!

One thing to be aware of is normally your incorporeal models get to ignore hazardous terrain, but kaeris stops that!

Even ghosts can be burnt by her flames.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Good luck!

One thing to be aware of is normally your incorporeal models get to ignore hazardous terrain, but kaeris stops that!

Even ghosts can be burnt by her flames.

Why I always consider bringing Eldritch magic upgrade against Kaeris. Also very useful to remove burning from enemy models that benefit from it (like fire golem). Personally I tend to bring Iggy with it against Kaeris, even ook just because he can remove burning for a +flip when targetting a model with dispel magic, and then can remove injured/focus with the actual action.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good morning, Yesterday I tried the Dreamer with the list that I told you about against kaeris.

The first impressions I had were quite satisfactory.

About the Dreamer himself, sometimes it's hard for me to know how close I have to get close to him because his range is not very high and in the end I had to resort to Protected (Nightmare) so that he didn't die, that poor Stiched Next to whom he received the damage he was a brave man. he otherwise teleported Chompy and summoned and when he could he put Shielded.

I like Lord Chompy Bits more and more, although I have a doubt, if he has the Inhuman Reflexes improvement, and they fail the terror duel, they cheat destiny, can I move 2 inches? Yesterday Chompy was quite absurd against the toughest models of him hitting hard and mitigating with terror, inhuman reflexes and soulstones.

Coppelius used it to complete missions, with movement 7 he could get practically anywhere, my partner ignored it.

Daydreaming makes me a bit panicked that they have upgrades because of how fragile they are, I feel like I can lose a lot due to carelessness, but they were a very useful support.

Teddy burned to death, poor thing, but he ate a FireGaming, he hurt Elijah, but Elijah does a lot of damage.

Finally, the Stiched Together, when I play I feel like I don't get the most out of them, because normally it comes naturally to me to remove the low cards from the deck, but the high cards are used more, and that their ranged attack can go very wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Daniel Cruz said:

Finally, the Stiched Together, when I play I feel like I don't get the most out of them, because normally it comes naturally to me to remove the low cards from the deck, but the high cards are used more, and that their ranged attack can go very wrong.

That's why I only pull out high cards if I'm certain a stitched will have use for them afterwards. I usually only pull out the high cards with Stitched's own Lucid dream at the start of it's activation. If I don't get a high card, I just remove the lowest and just don't use "gamble your life" that activation. Also I sometimes pull out a high card, If there is a high probabilty that a stiched will get killed in my opponents next activation. (It can use "fiendish gamble" on it's defensive flips as well).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Daniel Cruz said:

Finally, the Stiched Together, when I play I feel like I don't get the most out of them, because normally it comes naturally to me to remove the low cards from the deck, but the high cards are used more, and that their ranged attack can go very wrong.

Stitched change the outlook on how you use Lucid dreaming. You are right that in general the best approach is to try and remove low cards, but once you start using models that can use these removed cards, there is more of a case to remove high cards, because then those cards are acting as card draw. Exactly how much you want put high cards is up to you, and how much you are going to use models like stitched, which hit very hard for their price, but with the risk that they can hurt you. 

It will probably take several games to work out how much you want high cards to support Stitched, and how much you want low cards to just improve your deck. It will vary from playstyle to playstyle.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Stitched change the outlook on how you use Lucid dreaming. You are right that in general the best approach is to try and remove low cards, but once you start using models that can use these removed cards, there is more of a case to remove high cards, because then those cards are acting as card draw. Exactly how much you want put high cards is up to you, and how much you are going to use models like stitched, which hit very hard for their price, but with the risk that they can hurt you. 

It will probably take several games to work out how much you want high cards to support Stitched, and how much you want low cards to just improve your deck. It will vary from playstyle to playstyle.

 

Precisely for this reason it seems complicated to me, knowing when I have to discard high cards from the deck, because of course doing that makes me penalize myself for improving the deck by removing the low ones. 
 

I think they would be easier to carry with Insomnia since you always remove the highest ones

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information