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Bloody Valentine Winter Painting Competition


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5 hours ago, Skrytnik said:

It seems to me that this time there are much fewer people voting than before. Could it have something to do with the simultaneous start of voting and the release of errata?)

Maybe, but also the weekend is still coming up, and a lot of people wouldn't have had time before and will vote in the weekend I guess. For the moment it's a very low sample size and with only one vote per person the votes are very spread out atm. 

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Lots of amazing work this time around.

I have to ask, what do you guys take into account when voting? Is it the general impression/wow factor, is it technical prowess (painting techniques and overall result), is it compatibility with the given theme, friends work, quality of the picture, the fact that the picture was edited/not, story elements? What, what??

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23 minutes ago, Doc Lead said:

Lots of amazing work this time around.

I have to ask, what do you guys take into account when voting? Is it the general impression/wow factor, is it technical prowess (painting techniques and overall result), is it compatibility with the given theme, friends work, quality of the picture, the fact that the picture was edited/not, story elements? What, what??

All of this.

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28 minutes ago, Doc Lead said:

Lots of amazing work this time around.

I have to ask, what do you guys take into account when voting? Is it the general impression/wow factor, is it technical prowess (painting techniques and overall result), is it compatibility with the given theme, friends work, quality of the picture, the fact that the picture was edited/not, story elements? What, what??

Personally, as it is a themed contest a requirement is that it fits the theme well. If it really doesn't fit the theme I don't vote even if it is clearly the best piece. When in doubt this also might be a tiebreaker. 

 

Next, I'm looking for painting technique. If your composition, color scheme or ideas are awesome that's great but it's still a painting contest and the execution comes first for me. 

 

Finally, I will look at composition and choice of colors. 

 

For example, several entries in the single category have intricate bases with additional elements though the rules clearly state that these can't be present and that the main focus of the piece can not be the base. I believe that several entries do not comply with these rules. Although, I would be pro creativity and let people make the pieces they want. I therefore would be in favor of more flexible rules so it's clearer to all participants. Some painters will stick strictky to the rules and not add these extra elements. In the end this impacts voting a lot as I have the impression that most people vote on visual impact and immediate impression and not painting technique. 

 

All of the above is off course nothing more than my personal opinion. 

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I agree with @Silver_lining_minipainting for most part, but I probably give more weight to the totality of how model choice, technique, colours and composition work together to present the theme (...or against eachother for that matter).

I try to not put too much weight into photography skills, as this is a painting contest, but if the image is too noisy or blurry it does make it hard to judge the painting. A nice clean background with the model in focus and well lit should be sufficient.

Again I have to agree with @Silver_lining_minipainting in the fact that a lot of the models in the singles category have quite elaborate "bases", and as there is a separate diorama category in this contest I feel some of them might be a bit misplaced. I think a correction to the rules for the singles category should be adding a clause about the model to be "game legal" for the appropriate game.  It's too late for that now, so I've just chosen not to put much weight into the "bases" when voting.

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Just now, Hawkoon said:

I agree with @Silver_lining_minipainting for most part, but I probably give more weight to the totality of how model choice, technique, colours and composition work together to present the theme (...or against eachother for that matter).

I try to not put too much weight into photography skills, as this is a painting contest, but if the image is too noisy or blurry it does make it hard to judge the painting. A nice clean background with the model in focus should be sufficient.

Again I have to agree with @Silver_lining_minipainting in the fact that a lot of the models in the singles category quite have elaborate "bases", and as there is a separate diorama category in this contest I feel some of them might be a bit misplaced. I think a correction to the rules for the singles category should be adding a clause about the model to be "game legal" for the appropriate game.  It's too late for that now, so I've just chosen not to put much weight into the "bases" when voting.

Interesting point. I think it's tricky, because you also want to encourage people to make more intricate things. Maybe singles could be a category of the model as it comes in the box on its appropriate base without other sculpted elements. And all the others would go into a diorama category which should then maybe be renamed. Or a category should be diorama, which is quite clear what it can be. And a category anything goes. 

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Yeah, I agree with everything said.

Personally, the overall execution of the theme is the first thing I look at. And I'd even prioritize over technical skills if the work is very imaginative (last RH jack daw trippy diorama comes to mind). I don't even take into consideration pieces that don't fit, no matter how well painted they are.

I will also disregard any visibly edited photos. I understand this is an online contest and photos are what we basically rate, but it's the physical thing I am interested in. Tweaking contrast/saturation doesn't paint the actual picture :) of the model in question and for me presents an issue of how far can you then actually go.

As for single entries, it's a very fine line to walk, and I do think it's very difficult for those setting up the galleries (Kim?). There were a couple of entries that were transferred to singles, even though the authors submitted them as dioramas. But, that's another factor to take into account when voting. I think it was most prominent during flowers and showers where people submitted bases with a model and not a based model. They made attempts to change that afterwards.

I think it's up to the voters then to reward those who did their best to follow all of the parameters but that's wishful thinking as generally people vote for pop.

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47 minutes ago, Doc Lead said:

Yeah, I agree with everything said.

Personally, the overall execution of the theme is the first thing I look at. And I'd even prioritize over technical skills if the work is very imaginative (last RH jack daw trippy diorama comes to mind). I don't even take into consideration pieces that don't fit, no matter how well painted they are.

I will also disregard any visibly edited photos. I understand this is an online contest and photos are what we basically rate, but it's the physical thing I am interested in. Tweaking contrast/saturation doesn't paint the actual picture :) of the model in question and for me presents an issue of how far can you then actually go.

As for single entries, it's a very fine line to walk, and I do think it's very difficult for those setting up the galleries (Kim?). There were a couple of entries that were transferred to singles, even though the authors submitted them as dioramas. But, that's another factor to take into account when voting. I think it was most prominent during flowers and showers where people submitted bases with a model and not a based model. They made attempts to change that afterwards.

I think it's up to the voters then to reward those who did their best to follow all of the parameters but that's wishful thinking as generally people vote for pop.

How many people are actually doing that though? Take the competition rules into account when voting and acutally not voting for pieces that they feel don't comply with the rules? Me feeling says a minority.

Is there maybe also a consideration for combining the wyrd staff votes and public votes? And have just a top 3 and best in show, but have wyrd staff( or a selection/jury) votes count for 50% and the public vote for 50%. That feels like a nice mix to me.

I also think, and I understand it wasn't possible to do this so far, is to give everyone 3 votes. I think this will add a lot and I think the best pieces will more often come out ahead. In this case, are there plans to have weighed votes, aka, a number one vote counts for more?

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1 hour ago, Silver_lining_minipainting said:

Maybe singles could be a category of the model as it comes in the box on its appropriate base without other sculpted elements.

I think limiting to the box and no sculpted element is a bit too restrictive. People should be rewarded for putting effort into sculpting, conversions and bases, but within the boundrary of the game rules.

Personally I paint for gaming (and I have a monstrous backlog, just ask my wife...) so I don't really want to put a lot of time into painting models I cannot play with. I like to think I'm far from alone in that, so there should be a category that focuses on that aspect of the hobby. For pure display pieces the diorama/vignette category seems fitting as is in my opinion. Maybe it should be renamed to a wider category as a scene or something, i don't know.

(A category for crew would also be interesting, opening up for a proper diorama or just a game legal crew on a display tray.)

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24 minutes ago, Hawkoon said:

I think limiting to the box and no sculpted element is a bit too restrictive. People should be rewarded for putting effort into sculpting, conversions and bases, but within the boundrary of the game rules.

Personally I paint for gaming (and I have a monstrous backlog, just ask my wife...) so I don't really want to put a lot of time into painting models I cannot play with. I like to think I'm far from alone in that, so there should be a category that focuses on that aspect of the hobby. For pure display pieces the diorama/vignette category seems fitting as is in my opinion. Maybe it should be renamed to a wider category as a scene or something, i don't know.

(A category for crew would also be interesting, opening up for a proper diorama or just a game legal crew on a display tray.)

I indeed would avoid at all cost to restrict people's creativity.

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56 minutes ago, Silver_lining_minipainting said:

 

Is there maybe also a consideration for combining the wyrd staff votes and public votes? And have just a top 3 and best in show, but have wyrd staff( or a selection/jury) votes count for 50% and the public vote for 50%. That feels like a nice mix to me.

 

This could help but I think this is why they have their Wyrd prizes, they reserve the right to award any pieces that were objectively overlooked through public vote.

The 3 vote option was great and as far as I understood they will reimplement it as soon as they get the chance.

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I also agree that a single vote is insufficient and would like to have three.

Also the singles category is in my opinion not properly followed through when it comes to adhering to the ruleset. Models with backdrop should not be part of this category in my opinion, same as models with opulent bases. It was clearly stated that "not any additional accessories or details attached to the base." is in place. This rule alone is violated by so many entries

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34 minutes ago, Brushgit said:

I also agree that a single vote is insufficient and would like to have three.

Also the singles category is in my opinion not properly followed through when it comes to adhering to the ruleset. Models with backdrop should not be part of this category in my opinion, same as models with opulent bases. It was clearly stated that "not any additional accessories or details attached to the base." is in place. This rule alone is violated by so many entries

I agree mostly, though what would be considered as additional elements. I mean you can't just stick a model on a round plastic disk. So what is the difference between a backdrop/wall and tree or a bush or a rock? Though in many cases there's actually additional models (dead or alive :)) and objects, like the table next to dr dufresne and a door. I think the only solution here is to word the rule for singles differently and have someone form wyrd judge whether entries follow the rules or not and move them to the diorama category if not. Though I do not believe this happened here, in contrary, when the dr. dufresne entry was moved to singles.

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In terms of what I look for when I vote, it seems most of us have a similar process.

1.      How does it incorporate the theme?

2.      How well does it follow the overall rules?

3.      How well did they tie ALL of that together

Then it comes down to skill and execution.

I also agree that having three votes would be really nice. I think that might also encourage some of the people who aren’t top tier to participate. Coming from someone who specializes in educational psychology, putting the time and effort into painting for something like this and walking away with zero votes might make a lot of people never attempt it again. While the best people should win, we should still want as many people as possible to enter. The more the merrier, as they say.

I also agree that I think the rules got a bit... ?bent? For some of the “singles” entries.

I might suggest switching the category names to “game ready” and “display ready” – or something to that effect.

Caveat to what I’m about to say: I’m a language teacher at a Uni, so I spend a lot of time writing lists of expectations and drilling into students that they “must follow the directions!!!”

Couple lines from the rules:

1.      A single model on a base of appropriate scale or on a plinth of similar size.

           a. There are a few in there NOT on a base, nor a plinth of similar size. For me, I automatically discounted those pieces because it’s not following the rules – that isn’t necessarily on the artist though if their piece was moved into that category

2.      The single model should make up the majority of the submission and be the focus of the piece, not any additional accessories or details attached to the base.

            a.  I think both submissions for Dr. Dufresne are good examples of this rule being bent, if not broken. The final Dufresne I cannot say in good conscience that the focus is on the model. The focus is on ALL of it.

3.      If the base is the main focus of the submission, then the submission belongs in the Diorama/Vignette category.

            a. This echoes the above

I have to be honest, if the last Dufresne submission had been in the diorama category, I would have voted for it. I felt like I couldn’t for the singles category because my vote would 100% been about the wall behind the model and the tray/heart combination next to it. The model isn’t the focus, really. Again, that might not be on the OP.

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@Shock & Awe

I agree mostly, though what is considered a base and what is considered appropriate size is open to anyone's interpretation. Technically a base is just what the model is standing one. What is the difference really between an mdf square and a plastic disk? The only absolute distinction one can make is it has to be on an official wyrd games base. Appropriate size depends entirely on what people find appropriate. If we're talking majority of the base are we gonna measure surface area and calculate the ratio? In that case the hawk man hanging above the rock with a corpse is way off etc etc. Also, I think if we literally apply the rule not any additional accessories or details almost no entries comply. First picture is standing in front of a coufin, 3 have dead corpses on the base, one has bamboo shoots etc etc. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think this is all fine. I just think the rules should be worded differently so some people don't not incorporate additional elements because it was stated in the rules. Bottom line is, many if not most entries bended the rules somewhat. So either rules should be worded in less of an absolute way and have everyone interpret them with common sense, then wyrd and voters can punish clear rulebendes by moving the entry to a different category or not voting for it. 

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3 hours ago, Silver_lining_minipainting said:

Appropriate size depends entirely on what people find appropriate.

As a linguist, I would tend to respectfully disagree. All models come with a default size. Ignoring this and calling it "appropriate" feels a bit cheeky to me. This boils down to how you interpret "appropriate" and I don't think one can alter the scale of the base for artistic reasons and still say, "this is the appropriate size".  It's a 30mm model, it should be contained within a 30mm scale - whether that is the plastic circle it came with or an mdf square - and adding in a background seems like it should be a diorama by default.

However, I am a very literal person. That might just be my stupid obsession with words. 

3 hours ago, Silver_lining_minipainting said:

In that case the hawk man hanging above the rock with a corpse is way off etc etc.

I 100% agree with this. Thus, this was also a model I did not consider because I felt like it wasn't really within the spirit of the rules.

3 hours ago, Silver_lining_minipainting said:

Also, I think if we literally apply the rule not any additional accessories or details almost no entries comply. First picture is standing in front of a coufin, 3 have dead corpses on the base, one has bamboo shoots etc etc. 

The question is not if they add something, it's if the added thing become the focus of the piece.

In the end, I agree with all that have posted that it seems like what the rules say and some of the entries don't quite seem to align. However, nothing and no one is perfect. I am grateful that they host these things for us and I'm happy to be able to take part. 

I fully agree that a wild card category would be cool. 

Something like: 

  • Game Ready - has to be on the Wyrd base or a base of equivalent size
  • Display Ready - Dioramas and full crew shots
  • Wild Card - Everything else

 

 

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@Shock & Awe

I'dd like to add to this. Though please take this as a light hearted discussion and not in any other way as this is not te intent. I couldnt disagree more on the mening of appropriate as I think it is highly subjective. The definition i find is "suitable or proper in the circumstances". A miniature is not just a game piece and appropriate is not an absolute or objective term. 

Second, the rules state that no additional elements can be present which is why I made sure no such elements were present on my entry. However, I do not think this restrictive of a rule is necessary, many entries did not comply. 

I also want to concur that all this feedback is just constructive. I really appreciate that wyrd organises these casual painting contests!

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As I said before "game legal" is probably the best term to ensure the creativity is contained within a common understanding of the rule.

If the base size don't match the size written im the models rules/supplied with the model, it's out.

If the overhang or build-up on the base makes it unreasonably diffucult to play a game with, it's also out.

These criteria should be easy to enforce, and leaves little doubt for the painter regarding the limits of their "workspace".

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23 minutes ago, Hawkoon said:

As I said before "game legal" is probably the best term to ensure the creativity is contained within a common understanding of the rule.

If the base size don't match the size written im the models rules/supplied with the model, it's out.

If the overhang or build-up on the base makes it unreasonably diffucult to play a game with, it's also out.

These criteria should be easy to enforce, and leaves little doubt for the painter regarding the limits of their "workspace".

A bit harsh as this is currently not described in the rules, but fair. It makes it though as a painter if you paint a piece within the rules as currentlt described and is then discounted. But hey, the people are always right 😊

I'll take it into account for next time! Maybe then I'll stand a chance. 

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