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Errata 2022 - Guild


50 SS Enforcer

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I don't think Pale Rider needs a nerf. People have lots of means of dealing with Riders (stun in particular just become hugely more prevalent in the game).

Lone Marshal I expect to see a cost increase to 10. It will be disappointing if they Yasunori it, especially compared to other 10 stone models. It's pretty important countertech for dealing with summons, and it's already limited by not being a hench or ignoring friendly fire or cover. So currently, ook you can get it to ignore Friendly Fire if you pay 11 stones for it (12 if they bump the cost) with expert marksman, and you're still having to bring either steward or a lawyer to load it with focus, or its efficiency comes back down a fair amount. The only way to get it to ignore cover is to bring a blow it to hell model, which means you're ook on one side or the other. There's lot of complaining about the stat 7 gun, but the antidote to that is cover -- essentially its stat advantage gives it a half-positive to damage flips, and I don't think that needs the hard tap others do, especially with the Df stat creep in both Explorers and Malifaux Burns that we've been seeing.

I'm not really sure what else DOES need tuning down in Guild. Our most powerful things are probably all in the new wave. People hate the Pale Rider, so maybe its irreducible will get dropped to 2 or they'll just make it give burning 3 or something (upgrade in Sonnia). I already use Pale a lot less because we've picked up better movement in Augmented, Marshals, and Family, though Ride With Me remains very good tech. I also think Burns is going to make the Brutal Em very buildable with Marshals as an alternative centerpiece beater.

Lawyers or Steward could see a price increase, though I think there, too, we've become spoiled for choice on support models between the Guild Mage and things like Pearl, so we may not have the "ubiquitous model" problem with them, either. Or if the Steward loses the Galvanize trigger we'd see it more as counter-tech to conditions, say.

I feel like the models I've heard light grumbling about {Pale Rider, Lawyer, Steward, Lone Marshal} have all been through multiple rounds of review at this point -- that is to say, people were complaining about them in the last two sets of "what needs a nerf?" and they hit Pale and ignored the others, so it's sort of hard to expect much coming in a more powerful meta around them.

The other model would be Thirty Three, which could use something like "this model may not be placed by the effects or Abilities of friendly models" to shut off the really awful Tara interaction. That would also slow some efficiency with the Pale Rider, since Thirty Three is a decent taxi'ing candidate to get early alphas in for Death-Touched.

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The fix to the Tara-Thirty Three kidnap should really be on the Tara side, not Thirty Three, since there's such little reason to play Tara2 over her original version outside of the kidnap. Take that away and she probably needs a fairly substantial rework, and if doing so removes the problem with Thirty Three I don't see her needing any changes. 

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On 1/9/2022 at 6:59 AM, Yore Huckleberry said:

I feel like the models I've heard light grumbling about {Pale Rider, Lawyer, Steward, Lone Marshal} have all been through multiple rounds of review at this point -- that is to say, people were complaining about them in the last two sets of "what needs a nerf?" and they hit Pale and ignored the others, so it's sort of hard to expect much coming in a more powerful meta around them.

I think the argument for those (and LLC) is that they were all that was propping up the faction. Now that Guild has more tools available (and really effective ones), there could be an argument for revisiting those types of models.

Although poor Lucius. He doesn't need his lawyers hit 😢

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2 hours ago, Azahul said:

The fix to the Tara-Thirty Three kidnap should really be on the Tara side, not Thirty Three, since there's such little reason to play Tara2 over her original version outside of the kidnap. Take that away and she probably needs a fairly substantial rework, and if doing so removes the problem with Thirty Three I don't see her needing any changes. 

Man, I disagree. Tara2 is so good.

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37 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Man, I disagree. Tara2 is so good.

This is a tricky one, because I want to be clear. I 100% agree, Tara2 is a really cool Master. I just have yet to have a game with her where I didn't feel like Tara1 would have been the superior choice. It's not that she's bad so much as she feels like she lacks a reason to be played, save for the threat of the aforementioned kidnap potential with Thirty Three.

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I see Lone Marshall stat 6 on his gun.

Lawyer and steward were the models too common but nerfing them would make mage even more common for 1 year, that does not seem to be a good solution.

They could also reduce the draw on Dispatcher to once per round.

Pale rider has already been modified, I do not think they will change him. Even without his 2 irreducible et 4 ram, he will still be used in a lot of keywords.

There could be some buffs to models not used and not affected by V2. In my opinion, this would be Samael, Queller, Taggart, Sergeant, Greed, Heartsbane, Orderly.

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12 hours ago, Azahul said:

This is a tricky one, because I want to be clear. I 100% agree, Tara2 is a really cool Master. I just have yet to have a game with her where I didn't feel like Tara1 would have been the superior choice. It's not that she's bad so much as she feels like she lacks a reason to be played, save for the threat of the aforementioned kidnap potential with Thirty Three.

I should do a write up in the appropriate thread once I get a few more games in. There's a lot of efficiency there.

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I'm not sure there's anything that needs nerfing in Guild.  Sure, there's a couple of powerful models, but then you look at other factions and see what is apparently acceptable and think "Hang, on, maybe they aren't that powerful after all, just good."

There's nothing I look at and think "the opponent can't deal with that".

 

That said, there are a few things that could do with a little touch-up, and its the usual suspects that have needed it since the start of M3E: Witchling Stalkers and Thalarian Quellers for Sonnia (maybe just a SS drop, rather than a change to their actual text), Death Marshal Recruiters need something to make them better in Keyword (even though I think the real problem isn't the DMR itself, but the lack of Living targets in Keyword), Newsies, etc.

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9 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

Death Marshal Recruiters need something to make them better in Keyword (even though I think the real problem isn't the DMR itself

I'm no guild player but the few time I played LJ2 I was really please with DMR. You now have access to Guild Mage as really strong minion. But even without the recruitment ability I think they do enouf for Justice 2. 

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I'm probably going to get a bit of heat on this, but I'd kind of like to see Agent 46 lose Mimic and gain Leap (either suited needing a 7 or unsuited needing a 4 or so).

I've always pictured this guy as an assassin darting around and shanking some poor unsuspecting git through the ribs. I think this would really fit this image that's been presented in the fluff rather than morphing a gatling gun or some Huge claws. There's a really cool paragraph in Malifaux Burns where he basically stretches across the rooftop in the blink of an eye to grab someone coming out the door.

Giving him Leap would also fulfil a niche within Guild as a whole as they don't currently have anything like this.

 

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8 hours ago, Da Git said:

I'm probably going to get a bit of heat on this, but I'd kind of like to see Agent 46 lose Mimic and gain Leap (either suited needing a 7 or unsuited needing a 4 or so).

I've always pictured this guy as an assassin darting around and shanking some poor unsuspecting git through the ribs. I think this would really fit this image that's been presented in the fluff rather than morphing a gatling gun or some Huge claws. There's a really cool paragraph in Malifaux Burns where he basically stretches across the rooftop in the blink of an eye to grab someone coming out the door.

Giving him Leap would also fulfil a niche within Guild as a whole as they don't currently have anything like this.

 

One issue with this change is basically every crew in Guild is going to be hiring him xD

I personally also enjoy the mimic builds, but I know that's not the favoured way to play the crew.

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21 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One issue with this change is basically every crew in Guild is going to be hiring him xD

I personally also enjoy the mimic builds, but I know that's not the favoured way to play the crew.

Yes. He'll end up like Midnight Stalker.

Serial Killer/Assassin? Interact/leap/interact

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One issue with this change is basically every crew in Guild is going to be hiring him xD

Would he though? Maybe... but for 1ss more you could get the rider who has a great gun, is arguably tougher and is a rider for all that entails (ie, being awesome!)

 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

You could always move his 'on your heels' to a bonus action (like Mimic with On Your Heels sounds fun).

Or any other form of bonus action movement that moves towards an enemy rather than anywhere.

Something like that could work. Add a trigger to Inhuman Physiology that lets him place in b2b with an enemy model within 8" (probably should be more than 6" as that's his charge range (although this would ignore LoS/terrain).

Another potential bonus (to replace Mimic) that lets him get where he wants to be would be Risky Manoeuvres. And that gives him a nice Focus as well for his swords.

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7 minutes ago, Da Git said:

 

Would he though? Maybe... but for 1ss more you could get the rider who has a great gun, is arguably tougher and is a rider for all that entails (ie, being awesome!)

Leap is on a completely different level for mobility, so I think there'd be a lot of situations where you'd want agent over rider. Once you have leap you're basically mostly immortal anyway xD

That said, I'm sure there'd be tons of games where you just hire both.

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  • Adran changed the title to Errata 2022 - Guild

My two cents:

Buffs:

  • Quellers: The only way right now of making them playable is to slap them the upgrade Expert Marksman, and with that their cost becomes unreasonable. Either improve their utility or make them better at shooting by default.
  • Stalker: I get that they can be summoned in extreme situations with Sonnia1, but that doesn't justify how little this guys do. There are 3 Witchling in the game (PF, Stalker and Thrall) and that the best is the 2ss totem is bad. Give them a quick action and more shenanigans with burning (or ways to put burning).
  • Samael: Give him Arcane Shield +2 and ignore one of "friendly fire/cover/concealment" when targeting models with burning +X. He's too squishy and struggles to get value out of his shooting.
  • Exorcists: False Accusation Stat 6 and printed Mask. New ability "Expert Hunter(Undead): This model reduces the damage from attack actions from Undead models by 1". They really need to get close to the action to be useful, they don't have movement tricks that allow them to reach the enemy and hit it consistently because they rely a lot on the enemy being undead and there's no easy way to make someone undead unless playing LJ2. Once they're in the fight, they're easy to kill.

Nerfs:

  • Lawyer: Remove Tools for the Job and give them a free suit when targeting a friendly Elite/Mimic model.
  • Pale Rider: 1 Irreducible or 2 normal damages and Burning +3.
  • Dispatcher: Change the last sentence to: "If this model would be removed this way, it can gain Staggered to draw a card instead". Which forces him to stay in place (makes sense) and limits it to be used twice a turn maximum, unless you remove the condition.
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20 hours ago, Grimcrimm said:

Frontiersman need 1 "anything" to feel good

 

And please I want asylum to work

Add asylum to papa loco

 

Frontiersman have the awkward problem of actually being fairly decent, but for one stone more you can get a Pathfinder.

 

I think it was a missed opportunity not giving Basse 2 an incidental summon of Frontiersman for that reason - the model itself is fine, arguably good for a 5ss model.  There's nothing about that model I see as needing to change.  What's needed is a reason to take it out of the options available and not making Basse 2 support that was a shame.

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