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Errata 2022 - Outcast


50 SS Enforcer

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20 minutes ago, OctaBit said:

Ok, not so much a trick, but just part of how the rats are supposed to work. Didn't realize it counted as a chain activation though, that's interesting. 

Well, it isn't clear that it IS a chain activation or of it is something undefined, so it isn't clear if that is how rats are supposed to work.

But that is how most people play them now.

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, it isn't clear that it IS a chain activation or of it is something undefined, so it isn't clear if that is how rats are supposed to work.

But that is how most people play them now.

I mean, it's pretty clear cut rules as written. Just a Rat? says that the rat starts its activation and ends its activation, and that another model then activates. Which is the definition of a chain activation in the rulebook. I'm not sure where the ambiguity could be, all the language on the cards matches the language in the rulebook quite precisely. 

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So we've covered Winged Plagues thoroughly (give em Fly With Me, Hard to Wound, maybe cut the friendly requirement on Festering Wounds, that should do the trick). Abominations and Void Wretches see play by virtue of being summons and do fine in that role. Our cost 5 models in the Catalan Rifleman, Freikorps, and Guilty are all decent to great. The Malifaux Child tags along when you have a decent use for a low cost Significant model with Just Like You. And of course the Wretch is probably the best Cost 5 model in the game (in Keyword). We're actually doing pretty well overall for low cost models I'd say.

 

Just leaves the Desperate Mercenary sticking out like a sore thumb. I love the idea of them. Cheap, static snipers to support a mobile, melee oriented crew and give them a kind of combined arms flair. But Rapid Fire is basically wasted text on their card when the Viks have so many Discard effects and so little card draw, and they're not really any good at their jobs.

 

What do we think they need to see play? Give them a real gun? Defensive stats worth a damn? More triggers on the gun? And kind of bonus action? Stats better than 4s? I'm not really sure where to go, low cost beaters are clearly a space Wyrd hasn't really figured out, since they don't hit hard enough to justify how quickly they die, but if you push too far (especially on a long range gun) you could easily go too far with the multiplying effect of all those AP.

 

Would giving them a Clockwork Rifle and swapping Rapid Fire for Covering Fire see them get used? Even then I feel like they'll probably just get outpaced by the Viks, but there is a pretty nasty Yannic build in there... 

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1 hour ago, Azahul said:

I mean, it's pretty clear cut rules as written. Just a Rat? says that the rat starts its activation and ends its activation, and that another model then activates. Which is the definition of a chain activation in the rulebook. I'm not sure where the ambiguity could be, all the language on the cards matches the language in the rulebook quite precisely. 

Well, not necessarily. Are you doing a step C4 chain activation, or are you ending your activation and forcing your opponent to discard a pass token at step A (going straight to D)?

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15 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, not necessarily. Are you doing a step C4 chain activation, or are you ending your activation and forcing your opponent to discard a pass token at step A (going straight to D)?

The issue is that just discarding a pass token doesn't automatically mean you are skipping an activation. You can choose to discard a pass token at the right step to skip an activation, but you can also discard them at other times if a models effect calls for it.

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33 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, not necessarily. Are you doing a step C4 chain activation, or are you ending your activation and forcing your opponent to discard a pass token at step A (going straight to D)?

C4, because for it to be the latter case you would need a ton of additional language in there to make it clear that the opponent is technically activating and discarding a pass token as that activation. It's not like there's any other case in the game where "player discards a pass token" is on a model's ability/action where it counts as an activation.

 

If you check Tara2 and Aionus's cards, the language used for a player passing an activation with a pass token is that, "pass their activation". Not "discard a pass token".

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22 minutes ago, Azahul said:

C4, because for it to be the latter case you would need a ton of additional language in there to make it clear that the opponent is technically activating and discarding a pass token as that activation. It's not like there's any other case in the game where "player discards a pass token" is on a model's ability/action where it counts as an activation.

 

If you check Tara2 and Aionus's cards, the language used for a player passing an activation with a pass token is that, "pass their activation". Not "discard a pass token".

That language point is fair enough, although still feels like it is very much not the design intention xD

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Gotta love that Outcasts have so much of this kind of jank that cross-referencing is possible entirely within the one faction.

As an aside, would it be too much to bump Vanessa up to a Henchman? It really bothers me that the Viktorias' more arcane-inclined sister can't use Soulstones. I can't imagine that it would be likely to break anything.

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4 hours ago, Azahul said:

As an aside, would it be too much to bump Vanessa up to a Henchman? It really bothers me that the Viktorias' more arcane-inclined sister can't use Soulstones. I can't imagine that it would be likely to break anything.

To be fair, there are a lot of mages in Malifaux that are Minions or Enforcers. Some are even very powerful ones.

That said, I wouldn't mind Vanessa becoming a Henchman.

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21 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

To be fair, there are a lot of mages in Malifaux that are Minions or Enforcers. Some are even very powerful ones.

That said, I wouldn't mind Vanessa becoming a Henchman.

Yeah, you're not wrong, Vanessa just feels like she should. I think it's that she shares Into the Fray more than anything. She's the same health as her sisters, she's linked to them the same way they are to each other, she just feels more Henchman-y than Taelor if that makes sense.

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3 hours ago, Azahul said:

Yeah, you're not wrong, Vanessa just feels like she should. I think it's that she shares Into the Fray more than anything. She's the same health as her sisters, she's linked to them the same way they are to each other, she just feels more Henchman-y than Taelor if that makes sense.

At first I was a little hesitant because of what being a Henchman might do to Vanessa, cause I remembered Harness the Leylines. Then I rechecked her card, and nope, nothing I'd consider too powerful to be able to soulstone for, and she's not that big a beast I'd consider being able to burn SS for protection to be too much without some recompense.

So I'm fine with her being a Henchman. 

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Desperate mercenary need to generate value. The super low cost minions (3 or 4 ss) that see play give you value even if they die quickly. Expendables does a bit of that but it's not enough.

I would drop rapid fire and give them reckless (make sense since they're desperate). Surge instead of bloody fate. You can now take 3 potshot and hope to draw 1 card... Maybe it's a bit too much for 4ss, but they are still made of paper.

 

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12 hours ago, Azahul said:

So we've covered Winged Plagues thoroughly (give em Fly With Me, Hard to Wound, maybe cut the friendly requirement on Festering Wounds, that should do the trick). Abominations and Void Wretches see play by virtue of being summons and do fine in that role. Our cost 5 models in the Catalan Rifleman, Freikorps, and Guilty are all decent to great. The Malifaux Child tags along when you have a decent use for a low cost Significant model with Just Like You. And of course the Wretch is probably the best Cost 5 model in the game (in Keyword). We're actually doing pretty well overall for low cost models I'd say.

Bandidos called to say they're an embarassment next to the Catalan Riflemen or Friekorps (nevermind the Guilty) and desperately need something (Hard to Kill). 

As for the Desperate Mercenary, I've said it before, I'll say it again - 2/3/5 damage track, 5 wounds, hard to wound or Armor +1.  It solves them nicely.  They need to be able to stick around for more than one shot from the enemy, and they need to be able to contribute.   Df 4 and 4 wounds is not acceptable on a stat line if you're paying more than 3 soulstones for it.  For pete's sake they're almost as easy to kill as Eyes and Ears, a model Nexus can generate 4 of every turn! 

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guys, but what do you think of amalgam in general? and specifically, of the desolation engine?

I don't find them very "bright" overall, especially after the nerf of summons; a few comments ago, however, I read that some Russian players think that the Leveticus crew is among the strongest in the faction: that you know, is there any video-battlereport that can testify to these claims?

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3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Bandidos called to say they're an embarassment next to the Catalan Riflemen or Friekorps (nevermind the Guilty) and desperately need something (Hard to Kill). 

As for the Desperate Mercenary, I've said it before, I'll say it again - 2/3/5 damage track, 5 wounds, hard to wound or Armor +1.  It solves them nicely.  They need to be able to stick around for more than one shot from the enemy, and they need to be able to contribute.   Df 4 and 4 wounds is not acceptable on a stat line if you're paying more than 3 soulstones for it.  For pete's sake they're almost as easy to kill as Eyes and Ears, a model Nexus can generate 4 of every turn! 

Hahaha, I forgot about Bandidos entirely. 

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I will say I don't love the idea of Hard to Kill as the default answer to fixing low hit point, unarmoured models. Yes, I get where the inclination comes from, but it gets a bit boring.

 

Conversely Hard to Kill is quite prevalent in Bandit (Mad Dog, Parker2, Pearl, Sue), so it would be in keeping with the Keyword. But I wonder if there's a more interesting solution. Hard to say though, most 5 stone models without defensive tech that get used are support models. I guess you could give them Bandit Raid and they would shift into that space.

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8 hours ago, Azahul said:

I will say I don't love the idea of Hard to Kill as the default answer to fixing low hit point, unarmoured models. Yes, I get where the inclination comes from, but it gets a bit boring.

Agreed. I don't mind the basic concept, but it's a little over the top, especially if you've got easy access to healing.

I mentioned it somewhere, of a lesser version that works identically, but requires a discard. Meaning there's a cost to doing so, so it just can't be spammed in most situations, but can be used when it's important. 

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  • Adran changed the title to Errata 2022 - Outcast

It's less that the power level of the effect (a lot of these low cost models need quite a lot of help, so I'm not fussed about giving them something strong), and more that people reach for the rule that guarantees that it will take two hits to kill their cheap model. I like Hard to Wound more, where the risk still exists, but it doesn't feel appropriate on as many models. Even then though, models don't need to be able to survive a hit to be worthwhile, they just need to offer something good enough to make the risk worth it.

 

I wonder if Bandidos had another way to make enemy scheme markers, such as a bonus action, if that may help. Probably not enough on its own and it would depend a lot on whether it was an attack or Tactical action like Pearl's. The former synergises more with the Bandido's own kit, but the latter would be better with how Parker works in each of his versions.

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18 hours ago, Azahul said:

I will say I don't love the idea of Hard to Kill as the default answer to fixing low hit point, unarmoured models. Yes, I get where the inclination comes from, but it gets a bit boring.

 

Conversely Hard to Kill is quite prevalent in Bandit (Mad Dog, Parker2, Pearl, Sue), so it would be in keeping with the Keyword. But I wonder if there's a more interesting solution. Hard to say though, most 5 stone models without defensive tech that get used are support models. I guess you could give them Bandit Raid and they would shift into that space.

For Desperate Mercenaries I went with 5 wounds and Armor 1/HTW because that still allows one shots but it makes it harder.  HtK is already in Parker's stuff as you said, so it's thematic and gives clear counterplay (while buffing a unit that desperately needs it).

5 stones is too much to pay for a model that dies in one hit.  Hell, even 4 is a lot but you can pay 4 if it demands a high resource, slightly lucky hit.  But 5 stones to a single shot?  Come on, that's horrible.   You can't field a crew that dies like that. 

There's other ways you could make Bandidos worth it - they could heal and bury themselves and return on a later turn, they could spawn a desperate mercenary when they die, they could have 6 health and HTW and armor +1, Parker could have an action to summon up to 2 of them them off Enemy Scheme Markers... but HtK is on point for the bandits. 

If you wanted to reinforce their "sneak up" potential you could give them Stealth and Disguised as long as they are within 8" of an enemy scheme marker.  Frankly I think that Parker could use more of that in his kit, Bandits should ambush people.  Maybe give the Convict Gunslinger something similar too.  Disguised (and an extra wound) would be a nice start on helping that model. 

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I'd like it if they would rework Soldier For Hire to be more impactful. It feels like upgrades that don't have a crew wide benefit (like card draw or ill omens) have to be quite powerful to be useful. 90% of the time SFH is just hard to kill for 2ss and the minion-only benefit is kinda feast or famine.

Give Bandidos ambush and:+flipto their gun, save you spending cards on them even though they'd still have the problems 5 costs do in competitive play.

New Parker is hilariously bad but they're probs not ready to touch that mess.

Feels like they need to make a new Gaining Grounds that is focused on making crappy cheap minions takeable. Idk how they do that lol. Hidden Martyrs but as a strat maybe?

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On 1/21/2022 at 9:02 AM, RisingPhoenix said:

For Desperate Mercenaries I went with 5 wounds and Armor 1/HTW because that still allows one shots but it makes it harder.  HtK is already in Parker's stuff as you said, so it's thematic and gives clear counterplay (while buffing a unit that desperately needs it).

5 stones is too much to pay for a model that dies in one hit.  Hell, even 4 is a lot but you can pay 4 if it demands a high resource, slightly lucky hit.  But 5 stones to a single shot?  Come on, that's horrible.   You can't field a crew that dies like that. 

There's other ways you could make Bandidos worth it - they could heal and bury themselves and return on a later turn, they could spawn a desperate mercenary when they die, they could have 6 health and HTW and armor +1, Parker could have an action to summon up to 2 of them them off Enemy Scheme Markers... but HtK is on point for the bandits. 

If you wanted to reinforce their "sneak up" potential you could give them Stealth and Disguised as long as they are within 8" of an enemy scheme marker.  Frankly I think that Parker could use more of that in his kit, Bandits should ambush people.  Maybe give the Convict Gunslinger something similar too.  Disguised (and an extra wound) would be a nice start on helping that model. 

I think giving Bandidos stealth, or stealth under certain conditions is a great idea without going with the go to HtW or HtK.  They'd remain squishy, but only when the enemies are within a certain range.  

 

If blanket stealth is too good, maybe reduce the range of the pistol by 2 inches.

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Give Bishop Combat Reflexes, idk how people keep him alive lol, he feels like a 9ss minion whenever I bring him. Actually, make combat reflexes the minion benefit of Soldier for Hire and heckin make bishops adaptive last until end of turn/his next activation. I'm probably missing a minion that'd be broke with combat reflexes but if it's good enough for Mature Nephs, it seems fine for our living minions.

I hope they either rework some of the meh general upgrades or release a new wave of them, tinkering with upgrades in lists is part of what I miss from m2e and I don't think it's quite solved by master titles. If they try to target specific crews with useful synergies from general upgrades they can maybe affect balance without too many reprints.

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13 hours ago, Brilliance Laced Whiskey said:

I think giving Bandidos stealth, or stealth under certain conditions is a great idea without going with the go to HtW or HtK.  They'd remain squishy, but only when the enemies are within a certain range.  

 

If blanket stealth is too good, maybe reduce the range of the pistol by 2 inches.

Perhaps something like Beneath the Leaves would be good and could represent their ambush style. If they're within 3" of concealing terrain they would be considered to be in concealment. They could still get one-shotted pretty easily but the opponents would have to invest a bit more. 

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