Errata 2022 - Outcast

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also one of the funniest sequences in the world is:

• Opponent flips a 2, I have a 4 of rams with parry.
• They cheat higher so not to take damage, like a 6.
• I cheat an 8 of rams, still parry.

I've had various iterations of this with parry somewhat often. It isn't the best defensive tech ever, but the value of using a moderate ram for parry to negate an enemy card and attack, and then do a weak attack worth of damage back is incredibly good value for those moderates.

That said, I'm in the camp that I don't like these triggers either because I'm a player that reallllllly values reliability and predictability. But I know that players can and do get value out of these abilities.

[Alerteddonkey42]

19 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I've definitely had games where the parry trigger has done in the range of 8-10 damage. Sometimes your opponent flips a 2 on the attack and they're not willing to spend a card to just not get parried.

Well, that was the original point of the whole discussion - if you're forcing your opponent to alter behaviour to play well, then the ability is having an impact that you're not seeing. So it isn't wasted text if it is changing how your opponent has to play.

I see the difference in what we are anticipating within a game now. I find it rare that players put out unsupported attacks especially in melee against anything. A lot of non-beater models want to avoid melee since it limits your options. If I see a random, unsupported attack (from “spare” ap) it is usually ranged. Beater models that want to be in melee are where your opponent throws their support/willingness to cheat. My argument is that you’re not changing your opponent's behavior (at least in my experience), that is just how the game is played. I don’t value the ability because if the opponent makes a run at any model they want dead (not just bishop), they are going to support it and this system favors the attacker in a lot of ways (attacker wins ties, higher average attack stats, etc). Defensive abilities that reduce damage or make a model harder to hit complicate the math of killing it. Cage fighter does not. 

The concept of training an opponent can work if you regularly play the same person, but isn't going to work in a tournament setting (you travel or some opponents travel to your event). 

Im glad some people are getting value out of Bishop and the cage fighter trigger. 

[RisingPhoenix]

On 1/14/2022 at 8:43 AM, Adran said:

I disagree. If they ignore the ability totally, and you don't then you will probably find that you get to do 8-10 damage to them over the course of a game with it. Thats 1 or 2 dead models for 0 actions on the opponents side.

The idea that your opponent will make 10-15 failed attacks on Bishop over the course of the game is too ludicrous to take seriously.  Bishop will die in 3 successful attacks from a serious attacker even if they do min damage, and the Viks crew is not flush with healing. 

Either you don't know how the rules work or you're taking the piss.  Either way, your opinion is ludicrous.  Seriously, I think you need to go review the basic rules of the game if you think Cage Fighter is capable of doing 8-10 damage over the course of the game.  For the last and final time, unless they specifically state otherwise, Defensive triggers can only happen on a failed action.  FAILED.  The attack has to miss, and the crow is not built in.  It cannot affect ranged attacks, or willpower attacks.  In reality, it goes off once every 3 or 4 games. 

This is practically blatant trolling, and has no place in a serious discussion. It needs to be in some newbie rules intro.

[Adran]

I'm suggesting that you can reliably cheat it in once per turn if you aim to cheat and your opponent makes speculative attacks they don't intend to cheat. I don't see how that's impossible. Cage fighter has weak damage of 2, so 4-5 failed attempts is 8-10 damage. I don't see where you get 10 failures needed. 

Bishop will die to 3 or 4 supported attacks of a decent beater. I'm not saying otherwise. 

If you are only talking about it happening from the flip, the I agree it's only going to happen once in 3 or 4 games. But that's not what I'm talking about. 

I agree bishop is not going to hold a front line against arik and von schill for long. But I think it's bad play to expect that. He can hold up a single beater fairly well thanks to the virtually guaranteed slow, but he isn't a tank 

[Kadeton]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Either you don't know how the rules work or you're taking the piss.  Either way, your opinion is ludicrous.

If you find yourself typing a comment with this kind of tone aimed at anyone on these forums, stop. Take a breath, or even a walk. Once you've cooled off, and are mentally prepared to treat others with respect even if you strongly disagree with them, then come back and have another go at expressing your thoughts.

This advice applies to everyone, not just @RisingPhoenix.

[RisingPhoenix]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

I'm suggesting that you can reliably cheat it in once per turn if you aim to cheat and your opponent makes speculative attacks they don't intend to cheat. I don't see how that's impossible. Cage fighter has weak damage of 2, so 4-5 failed attempts is 8-10 damage. I don't see where you get 10 failures needed. 

Bishop will die to 3 or 4 supported attacks of a decent beater. I'm not saying otherwise. 

If you are only talking about it happening from the flip, the I agree it's only going to happen once in 3 or 4 games. But that's not what I'm talking about. 

I agree bishop is not going to hold a front line against arik and von schill for long. But I think it's bad play to expect that. He can hold up a single beater fairly well thanks to the virtually guaranteed slow, but he isn't a tank 

Okay, mate, you're taking the piss.  No one goes in on a 9 stone melee beater intending to take one attack a turn on it.  You go in on a nine stone model to kill it.  And that means cage fighter goes off once, even if you've saved that high crow. 

You do plink plink damage at range by taking random potshots.  I play Parker all the time, I know about doing 6-10 damage with plinking every round and yeah, Cage Fighter would deter the hell out of that... if you could declare it on those.  But you can't, so this is nonsense. 

Right, I think this is about 10,000 more words than Cage Fighter deserved to ever have devoted to it. 

[Adran]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Okay, mate, you're taking the piss.  No one goes in on a 9 stone melee beater intending to take one attack a turn on it.  You go in on a nine stone model to kill it.  And that means cage fighter goes off once, even if you've saved that high crow. 

Sorry. You seem to assume I run bishop into the middle of the fight to face all comers. That would see the outcome you expect.

I use bishop to target scheme runners, support models or low threats. If I had to fight a model like Arik, then I would expect the first strike ( since bishop is more mobile by a long way) and for him to be slow every turn. If I have to move into the charge threat of a big beater, then I really think twice before doing it. 

And if I use a different model to do a similar role,  ( such as the blessed) then I often see models that can't escape and do something useful would attack because there is the chance they will weaken the threat and eventually kill it, which seems better than escape, and let it come after me again. 

[RisingPhoenix]

Right, so back to the topic of the 2022 Errata, do you think they'll address Aionus?  He definitely needs a little something.  Hitting him with a fairly high TN and taking away his built in crow for the pass tokens really renders him just not that useful, especially for a 10 stone model. 

I think at a minimum if he got a version of Beyond Time that allowed abilities on the front of the card to treat buried units as "in LOS and range" he'd get some utility and with two abilities, it just makes sense.  Maybe something like "Master of Time:  Aionus may treat buried units as if they are adjacent to him for the purposes of LOS and range."  Hell, you could probably make damage he does to buried models irreduceable. 

I also think Sever Timeline could take a look, the ability is entirely weak for an action on a 10 stone model right now.  Maybe if it got a stat 6 to make it more consistent when targeting enemies, and did 2 damage to the model or healed Obliteration models for 2?  That would give it some utility and weak damage if you wanted to try and unbury and kill an enemy model for... some reason (rather than leaving it buried?)

[Maniacal_cackle]

Aionus (and Tara) seem super strong to me - is there a reason you think he needs a buff? He's already a lynchpin of Tara 1.

Sever Timeline for instance - it is easily worth an action to generate two pass tokens (that's almost entirely unheard of, particularly since it can target allies. He can charge and attack your buried models, nuke stuff late game with eventuality, etc.

Provides activation control beyond just the pass tokens with the Buffering ability.

He does so much to enable the crew that the most frequent salt I hear about him is he is a 10 stone tax to play Tara 1 because he enables the crew so well.

[TeddyBear]

please, don't take what I'm about to say too seriously. I ask this question to more experienced players. I was wondering, would it be too strong (after the various nerfs that his keyword suffered) to give A&D the option of not getting "summoned tokens"?

[RisingPhoenix]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Aionus (and Tara) seem super strong to me - is there a reason you think he needs a buff? He's already a lynchpin of Tara 1.

Sever Timeline for instance - it is easily worth an action to generate two pass tokens (that's almost entirely unheard of, particularly since it can target allies. He can charge and attack your buried models, nuke stuff late game with eventuality, etc.

Provides activation control beyond just the pass tokens with the Buffering ability.

He does so much to enable the crew that the most frequent salt I hear about him is he is a 10 stone tax to play Tara 1 because he enables the crew so well.

Sever Timeline does not generate two pass tokens as an action.  Sever Timeline is an attack targeting Wp with a stat 5 and a TN of 12 that reads "Unbury the target within 3" of Aionus".  This is absurd.  A stat 5 vs Wp attack on a  10 stone model that does no damage?  And it has a target number?  There's a 50% chance you have to pitch a high card to even make it go off and if you're targeting an enemy... good luck and also why? 

If you then also have a crow, it generates two pass tokens.  Since you're really unlikely to flip the 7-13 of crows, you're spending a soulstone as well to get the trigger. 

So the base action itself is incredibly weak, and you're blowing a lot of resources to get pass tokens out of it.  That makes him not a 10 stone tax, but a 12-13 stone tax.  That's... that's a fair amount of stones.  In fact that's the sort of tax that makes one not play Tara, especially now that summoning has been nerfed. 

If we're saying the pass tokens are super strong then just erase the bloody trigger or make it one pass token and fix Aionus.  He might be a 12 stone tax to get Tara 1 working, but most masters work without taxation.  Tara 2 can actually do cool things without taxes like absolutely bury/execute models. 

I feel like Tara got flogged for two GGs because she was super broken in a poorly designed scheme, Corrupted Idols.  And there the pass tokens weren't even broken because they were pass tokens, they were broken because of the initiative boost (with +4 to initiative you could control the spawning of every idol, and then summon ablative wounds to move them).

Like, if we're still beating on Aionus for the pass tokens, make it one pass token and then just buff him!  There's no law of the universe that an entire model has to be bad because trading a card and a soulstone for 2 pass tokens is "good" (if it even is)

[Zebo]

In fact, you don't need to win the duel to declare Fleeting Moments, so with a 1-2 you gain 2 pass tokens. 

 

Although I agree with the action being useless without the trigger... unless you want to unbury something, of course. 

[TeddyBear]

as much as it may be of interest (since I find myself by chance in the discussion and often play with tara) although I think that Aionus can actually be improved a little bit, in terms of stats of the actions; I personally would NEVER trade a similar "buff" with the trigger on Sever Timeline.

[Azahul]

51 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

please, don't take what I'm about to say too seriously. I ask this question to more experienced players. I was wondering, would it be too strong (after the various nerfs that his keyword suffered) to give A&D the option of not getting "summoned tokens"?

I expect that would be fine. Paying 9 stones for an 8 health schemer (he's not a bad damage dealer even without his crow trigger but he's no 9 stone beater, that's for sure) with no defensive rules bar his Demise who often can't do his job once his Demise triggers isn't great. There's probably wiggle room there.

 

On the Tara front, I certainly don't feel she is in need of anything. I would argue she is in strong contention as the best Outcast Master in GG2. And Aionus's ability to Unbury a model is so dang strong I'm more than happy dropping 10 stones on him every time. He enables so much. I've never used Sever Timeline on an enemy model, what's the point when doing so reduces the number of your models that can target that enemy and you have a lot of control of where they unbury anyway with all the normal ways Tara forces buries. Nice to have the option in case you need to isolate an enemy model for whatever reason but I'd normally just use a Void Hunter. It's the ability to just say now one of your models is in a sector of the board you had limited presence in and go and score points that makes it strong, and unburying unengaged is huge for that.

[Zebo]

TBH, I've played very little with Obliteration, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt, but I indeed think Aionus's cost is a bit too high for his value on the table. 

I would change a bit Sever Timeline to give it range (maybe 6") And allow it to target unburied models. Then Bury or Unburt the target. So it would be a reliable way to bury enemies without resistance flips. 

 

But, again, I've not played enough games to value him accurately. Maybe it's simply I've still haven't learned how to play him properly. 

[Azahul]

Sever Timeline is an attack action so the opponent would still get to resist it. Which is good, you emphatically do not want to give Obliteration a way to Bury enemies without any form of resistance. 33 alone was a huge buff to the Keyword in giving a model that was able to force buries rather than rely on simple duels while being able to actually get wherever you want (unlike Talos, previously the only option for that).

[Azahul]

If I were to add anything to Aionus I think it would be a defensive rule. Any defensive rule. I personally find his support functions in Obliteration invaluable for 10 stones (at least in Tara1, Tara2 doesn't need him so much), but it is pretty wild that he's a 10 stone model with neither damage nor anything to keep him alive beyond good stats. But it wouldn't need to be much, and with the option to Bury Aionus whenever he's in danger I haven't really run into a situation where he dies before scoring some points. 

[SEV]

5 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Sever Timeline does not generate two pass tokens as an action.

It mostly does (as long as you have a crow) since it's an after resolving trigger.

More broadly, I don't understand the argument of fixing something that doesn't seem to be broken. Is Ainonus often hire in keyword: yes. Is it overpower : no.

That model seems in the right spot to me.

[admiralvorkraft]

If we're talking about Tara we need to limit the kidnap somehow so that the rest of her very cool card sees play.

I'd either change the aura to apply Fast rather than strip a condition, or limit the range of the echo marker bounce back to like 10". 

But that should happen more or less immediately.

I don't get any value out of Aionus, but that's probably a play style issue. Or rather, I get the "bury a model, charge it for fast, unbury," but there's a lot of text on his card that just doesn't seem relevant most of the time.

EDIT: Giving 33 Unimpeded instead of Incorporeal wouldn't be a bad thing either.

[Azahul]

I should note that I agree that I don't think Aionus is either too good or too weak, so wasting dev time on a change there seems unnecessary when there are more important models to address.

 

Losing Incorporeal would make 33 extremely squishy, and the problem seems to be squarely on Tara2's side. I would rather see changes there than nerfs to a model that doesn't seem problematic with Justice or Tara1 (or OOK).

 

One solution might be to have Rewind bury the model as an intermediate step? I.e. instead of placing a model base to base with an echo marker, you instead bury it and then unbury it base to base with an echo marker. That would make 33 "drop" any model they have in their Pine Box. It would all resolve at once at the end of the activation so it wouldn't let you use it offensively to get an opponent buried for another model to capitalise on either, though it would trigger a handful of auras like on Aionus and 33 but I don't think that's problematic.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Tara was the best performing Outcast master in the Malifaux World Series if I'm not mistaken, so her crew would definitely be an odd one to buff.

Aionus as others pointed out can make those pass tokens even with a low crow (which you can also get with Karina's deck flip if you need), and he often leads to game-breaking plays, so I have trouble seeing giving him a buff.

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, Azahul said:

I should note that I agree that I don't think Aionus is either too good or too weak, so wasting dev time on a change there seems unnecessary when there are more important models to address.

 

Losing Incorporeal would make 33 extremely squishy, and the problem seems to be squarely on Tara2's side. I would rather see changes there than nerfs to a model that doesn't seem problematic with Justice or Tara1 (or OOK).

 

One solution might be to have Rewind bury the model as an intermediate step? I.e. instead of placing a model base to base with an echo marker, you instead bury it and then unbury it base to base with an echo marker. That would make 33 "drop" any model they have in their Pine Box. It would all resolve at once at the end of the activation so it wouldn't let you use it offensively to get an opponent buried for another model to capitalise on either, though it would trigger a handful of auras like on Aionus and 33 but I don't think that's problematic.

5 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

 

You're right, removing incorporeal would be a bit much.

I still think the core issue is just perpetually stun-locking an enemy model. Giving them fast keeps you from doing it too many times in a row and maintains the Obliteration risk/reward dynamic.

[Azahul]

2 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

You're right, removing incorporeal would be a bit much.

I still think the core issue is just perpetually stun-locking an enemy model. Giving them fast keeps you from doing it too many times in a row and maintains the Obliteration risk/reward dynamic.

Possibly. I don't know if I love spending hitpoints off Tara and removing debilitating conditions off a model to give my opponent activation control for scoring. Outside of the Turn 1 kidnap it isn't an ability I've actually benefited from much. But it is very strong on Turn 1 when there are no scoring considerations to worry about.

 

Having Rewind bury a model en route to placing though gives your opponent considerably more counterplay. Now you need to leave 33 in the middle of their crew if you want to keep the target buried, and instead of getting stunlocked by Tara your opponent can just activate a beater near 33 and kill her to force the unbury.

 

Cycling back to models that actually do need a buff, what would Winged Plagues need to actually see play? I remember an old, old suggestion I once saw that I loved was giving them Fly With Me. As Size 1 models they'd only be able to carry rats, but that is a fabulous mental image anyway and I love it. That would in turn actually make them fast and good at scheming, which is a role Hamelin desperately wants.

 

They would also need, like, absolutely any defensive rule. I think Hard to Wound would be enough? They are very nearly undead models, and at 4 health there's not much else you can give them to keep them alive.

[admiralvorkraft]

3 hours ago, Azahul said:

Possibly. I don't know if I love spending hitpoints off Tara and removing debilitating conditions off a model to give my opponent activation control for scoring. Outside of the Turn 1 kidnap it isn't an ability I've actually benefited from much. But it is very strong on Turn 1 when there are no scoring considerations to worry about.

 

Having Rewind bury a model en route to placing though gives your opponent considerably more counterplay. Now you need to leave 33 in the middle of their crew if you want to keep the target buried, and instead of getting stunlocked by Tara your opponent can just activate a beater near 33 and kill her to force the unbury.

 

Cycling back to models that actually do need a buff, what would Winged Plagues need to actually see play? I remember an old, old suggestion I once saw that I loved was giving them Fly With Me. As Size 1 models they'd only be able to carry rats, but that is a fabulous mental image anyway and I love it. That would in turn actually make them fast and good at scheming, which is a role Hamelin desperately wants.

 

They would also need, like, absolutely any defensive rule. I think Hard to Wound would be enough? They are very nearly undead models, and at 4 health there's not much else you can give them to keep them alive.

I run Winged Plagues...

But I also suggested they get Fly With Me for the hilarity of rat taxis and I'd definitely not complain if they had it. I'd also appreciate The Plague Spreads reworked to be less bad. Something like, "During the end phase this model may take a Walk action ending as close as possible to an enemy model without a blight token."

[Azahul]

I could put up with the rest of their kit if they weren't quite so trivial to kill and could actually scheme worth a damn, they just don't feel like they have a purpose to me at the moment. Though I would like to see Festering Wounds lose its enemy only clause. The Spray of Filth trigger can cause a lot of Blight to stack up on Hamelin's own models but unless the opponent is Obeying for some Bleeding Diseases or you want to kill your own models for whatever reason and only have Bleeding Diseases to do it with there's no reason to track it. Actually having a use for friendly Blight would be great, especially as the new Hamelin can pile up friendly Blight even faster with both built in Spray of Filth and his Spreading Death ability.

 

Also I would really like to see Protection Money added onto Parker1's card. Losing it in the Wanted Criminal change sucked, it damaged his most unique niche in the Outcast faction as a resource engine ala Molly, and trying to use him as a Beater never feels good considering the myriad better options we have. I would like to see them return that defining feature.