Errata 2022 - Outcast

[RisingPhoenix]

So Soldier has one ability This Will Fetch a High Price that's basically identical to Wanted Criminal's Free Loot.  I don't know of any other faction that has such a niche ability duplicated on their upgrades.  If we gave Soldier an ability that was more suited for a fighting unit like Ruthless it'd be significantly better.

It's downright silly we have two upgrades that are both "get resource for removing scheme marker". 

[Azahul]

Personally I dearly wish they would move Bounty Hunter off from being the Minion rule to being the any model ability. It's so cool and flavourful but we have no Minions worth upgrading so it never comes up.

 

And yes, you're right, This Will Fetch a High Price is silly duplication. Not like we can't hire a Prospector for it either.

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, Axelst said:

I can think of exactly one model that can make good use Soldier for Hire and that one requires using Barbaros as a leader.

If you're talking Mature Nephilim, I still think Herald is a better choice.

The card draw is nice, H2K is great, but you're rarely going to use Fetch.

With Herald, Terrifying is awesome combined with Combat Finesse, the Heal supplements the Regen, and the push means you can get two Focus up before engaging T2. You can also Alpha Strike T1, with a 19" Charge range on it's first Action (6" Herald, 5" FwM, 6" Charge, 2" reach), but I'm not sure that's a smart move.

[Zebo]

13 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Desolation Engine

Agree with some love for this model, but not sure how. 

First it already has 6 abilities, and I haven't seen any model with more than 6, son there's not the place to make changes. 

Defense 3 is stupid, but I doubt increasing its Def to 4 or 5 would make this model really better. I think the big problem with this model is that it's supposed to be a brawler, but it does little damage unless he damages himself, wich decreases highly its survivability. Unlikely other Undead models, this model hasn't more wounds than its cost, but this model harm itself to do things, and doesn't gain so much for its wounds. So it can be more or less as tough as other brawlers, but doing less damage, or he can do more or less the same damage than other brawlers, but turning significantly squishier than other brawlers. All at the same cost. 

I think the key is its attack, maybe change it for Huge Fists, or change the In-built Necrotic Decay for an in-built Siphon Life. 

 

14 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Convict Gunslinger

Also agree on this, but I think maybe 7ss is too good. I've been hating this model since release of M3E, but I must admit every time I've hired one it has make a quite good job. Feel to me like a 7.5ss model. 

I would like to see his stat going up to 6, and maybe change his Df trigger to something always happening instead of only against  (and maybe in-built). 

Another option could be reduce his damage to 2/3/4 and his cost to 7... Or keep him at 8 and give him Rapid Fire. 

 

14 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Lazarus

I would prefer to change its Grit ability for Rapid Fire, although giving him a  attack with high damage also sounds sweet (a good target for Pull from Von Schill) 

 

14 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Bishop/Taelor

Agree with Taelor needing something (mostly, a rework on Welcome to Malifaux to make it work) but not on Bishop. I think he's mostly fine. 

 

14 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Drachen Trooper

Not sure why should he have more movement than the rest of the troops. 

While I agree with Flamethrower ignoring cover (and concealment TBH), I don't think it should ignore FF or shoot when engaged. 

What I would like to see is the Flamethrower ignoring cover and concealment, doing Burning +3, gaining the Smolder and Burn It All triggers. And Burn It Down removing al markers, not only destructible ones. 

15 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Upgrades

Soldier for Hire should remove This Will Fetch a High Price, put Bounty Hunter on the regular place and add Ruthless to Minions. 

Wanted Criminal should be reworked again to make it a real choice. 

[Morgan Vening]

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

Agree with some love for this model, but not sure how. 

First it already has 6 abilities, and I haven't seen any model with more than 6, son there's not the place to make changes. 

Defense 3 is stupid, but I doubt increasing its Def to 4 or 5 would make this model really better. I think the big problem with this model is that it's supposed to be a brawler, but it does little damage unless he damages himself, wich decreases highly its survivability. Unlikely other Undead models, this model hasn't more wounds than its cost, but this model harm itself to do things, and doesn't gain so much for its wounds. So it can be more or less as tough as other brawlers, but doing less damage, or he can do more or less the same damage than other brawlers, but turning significantly squishier than other brawlers. All at the same cost. 

I think the key is its attack, maybe change it for Huge Fists, or change the In-built Necrotic Decay for an in-built Siphon Life. 

Yeah, the big boy definitely consistently misses a beat. It's just weird that puppy is just so bad.

I think you're right that Wyrd won't put another front of card ability. And they're all GOOD abilities.

But there's plenty of space on the back. Not sure which way to go with his melee attack, don't think it needs THAT much. But a better tactical, and/or a better bonus action, even if it replaces one of the existing, might work. Something that speeds him up a little bit, or provides some defensive capacity or healing (yeah, Consume is there, but it blows), or something, so he's not getting pasted so easily.

I've got two of these guys sitting on my shelf, and I really like the miniatures, but I can't see putting them on the table in their current form.

[RisingPhoenix]

Zebo gets me well.  Yep, the Lazarus change is partially because I hate Pull! being best with OOK models.  Something sticks in my craw when the best way to use a master ability is to take something out of keyword.  It'd be like if Jack Daw's best way to mass stagger was an Amalgam model or something.  Add in a big robot who definitely needs a little something, and... well, yeah, I think we could kill two birds with one stone. 

I'd rather have the Convict Gunslinger at 8 with Rapid Fire.  If he's gonna be "the model that shoots lots" lets make him that. 
 

Quote

 

Not sure why should he have more movement than the rest of the troops. 

While I agree with Flamethrower ignoring cover (and concealment TBH), I don't think it should ignore FF or shoot when engaged. 

What I would like to see is the Flamethrower ignoring cover and concealment, doing Burning +3, gaining the Smolder and Burn It All triggers. And Burn It Down removing al markers, not only destructible ones. 

 

Drachen Troopers are short range, I always wish I could punt them up the board.  Then they just get charged on.  I dunno, maybe borrow a bit of 40K and let anything charging them take automatic burning (you're charging into a flame cone). 

As for ignoring, I'd love it if they ignored Cover, Concealment, and Friendly Fire, but then friendly models engaged got Burning as well.  Y'know, like "fuck it FIRE IN THE HOLE" it's not a precision instrument if you shoot into a melee everyone gets toasty.  Love the trigger suggestion.  Definitely good with that change and keeping it a gun, there's just something that always pisses me off about hiding in a bunch of bushes to dodge a flamethrower.  That's exactly what they were historically really good at dealing with, people in trenches and bushes. 

[Alerteddonkey42]

8 hours ago, Zebo said:

but not on Bishop. I think he's mostly fine. 

I keep looking at him after talking about it in this topic and I still think he needs something. His lack of defensive tech makes it pretty easy for a beater to kill him in one activation, his melee ranged means he gets tarpitted easily, and he’s already in a relatively fragile keyword where your high cards are generally going to other models (mostly the viks). I’m usually pretty happy to see him on the other side of the table because I can pretty much guarantee putting the opponent 9ss down. At the very least, he needs something because the Viks need more crew building options (I’d like it if he was made to be on par with the bar for 9ss enforcers, Archie   )

[Azahul]

11 minutes ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I keep looking at him after talking about it in this topic and I still think he needs something. His lack of defensive tech makes it pretty easy for a beater to kill him in one activation, his melee ranged means he gets tarpitted easily, and he’s already in a relatively fragile keyword where your high cards are generally going to other models (mostly the viks). I’m usually pretty happy to see him on the other side of the table because I can pretty much guarantee putting the opponent 9ss down. At the very least, he needs something because the Viks need more crew building options (I’d like it if he was made to be on par with the bar for 9ss enforcers, Archie   )

I've played Bishop a fair bit, I bring him every time I play the Viks, and I have never seen his melee range cost him an attack. Between Battle Tempo and Chain Gang he has 5" of free movement before he needs to worry about that.

 

He does go down to beaters easily, but a) that does fit the Vik's playstyle of not really wanting to get into big brawls, and b) he's actually really good against a single beater if he gets the jump on them because they should end up slow and staggered. If he can bait a high cost model out onto his flank he can often dive in, cripple them, and speed off in the same activation to leave them in his dust.

 

He needs a good amount of terrain to dodge guns and hyper mobile beaters able to reach out and get him are problematic but he does so much work I have a hard time faulting him for being squishy in return. He could maybe use Hard to Kill so he isn't quite so swingy against mobile opponents.

[Trample]

3 hours ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I keep looking at him after talking about it in this topic and I still think he needs something. His lack of defensive tech makes it pretty easy for a beater to kill him in one activation, his melee ranged means he gets tarpitted easily, and he’s already in a relatively fragile keyword where your high cards are generally going to other models (mostly the viks). I’m usually pretty happy to see him on the other side of the table because I can pretty much guarantee putting the opponent 9ss down. At the very least, he needs something because the Viks need more crew building options (I’d like it if he was made to be on par with the bar for 9ss enforcers, Archie   )

Slippery. He would be awesome with Slippery. 

[RisingPhoenix]

Hard agree on Slippery.  You could easily replace the terrible Cage Fighter trigger which never matters with that. 

I wouldn't mind also adding Face in the Crowd to make him a little harder to shoot.  Like minus Cage Fighter, plus Slippery and Face in the Crowd and he's probably fine. 

[Morgan Vening]

3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Hard agree on Slippery.  You could easily replace the terrible Cage Fighter trigger which never matters with that. 

I wouldn't mind also adding Face in the Crowd to make him a little harder to shoot.  Like minus Cage Fighter, plus Slippery and Face in the Crowd and he's probably fine. 

I still think Cage Fighter and similar abilities are undervalued, not for what they do, but for what they pressure into not happening. When facing Bishop, you don't throw errant attacks his way, especially from Stat 5 or less models, unless you're sure he's out of high Crows. And if you flip a Weak, you've got to worry about moderate Crows too, unless you're willing to burn cards from hand.

Now, if Adaptive kept the suit until EoT, it'd be frikkin' awesome. Rams and Tomes would still be an option (as they allow all four actions to hit a universally good trigger), but if you took the Crow, then it's much more useful for keeping your opponent honest.

[RisingPhoenix]

4 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

I still think Cage Fighter and similar abilities are undervalued, not for what they do, but for what they pressure into not happening. When facing Bishop, you don't throw errant attacks his way, especially from Stat 5 or less models, unless you're sure he's out of high Crows. And if you flip a Weak, you've got to worry about moderate Crows too, unless you're willing to burn cards from hand.

Now, if Adaptive kept the suit until EoT, it'd be frikkin' awesome. Rams and Tomes would still be an option (as they allow all four actions to hit a universally good trigger), but if you took the Crow, then it's much more useful for keeping your opponent honest.

I mean you'd totally worry.  If you care about 3 damage.  But holy shit, yes, those abilities are worthless.  Shall we go over why again?  How it has to matter:

1. They have to attack Defense.  If they attack Willpower, the trigger is worthless
2. They have to attack in melee.  If they attack at range, the trigger is worthless
3. They have to miss the attack.  If the attack succeeds (and you don't want attacks to fail) then the trigger cannot trigger, so is worthless
4. You have to have a crow.
5. They have to, like, care that you used a high suited card to do average 3 damage to them.

I talk about magical Christmasland abilities a lot, and Cage Fighter is one of them.  How many of your opponents bring stat 5 melee attackers without a stat 5 ranged/willpower attack to compliment that?  Not many, I would say.  Not many at all.  Most things you actually hire and are stat 5 have some other Wp/range action that is stat 5 and can work just as well.  Models who only have a stat 5 melee attack and nothing else are not typically models that go attacking 9 stone beaters.  That's, like, some form of Bayou Smuggler or Prospector thing and I'm not expecting those to be racking up damage on a 9 stone model.

 

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I mean you'd totally worry.  If you care about 3 damage.  But holy shit, yes, those abilities are worthless.  Shall we go over why again?  How it has to matter:

1. They have to attack Defense.  If they attack Willpower, the trigger is worthless
2. They have to attack in melee.  If they attack at range, the trigger is worthless
3. They have to miss the attack.  If the attack succeeds (and you don't want attacks to fail) then the trigger cannot trigger, so is worthless
4. You have to have a crow.
5. They have to, like, care that you used a high suited card to do average 3 damage to them.

I talk about magical Christmasland abilities a lot, and Cage Fighter is one of them.  How many of your opponents bring stat 5 melee attackers without a stat 5 ranged/willpower attack to compliment that?  Not many, I would say.  Not many at all.  Most things you actually hire and are stat 5 have some other Wp/range action that is stat 5 and can work just as well.  Models who only have a stat 5 melee attack and nothing else are not typically models that go attacking 9 stone beaters.  That's, like, some form of Bayou Smuggler or Prospector thing and I'm not expecting those to be racking up damage on a 9 stone model.

 

Whilst you are partially right about the "magical Christmas land" feel to abilities like Cage fighter, I feel it really depends on long term play style. I know I rate these abilities higher than most people. I know the reason I do is because when I was learning my opponent would save high masks for Repost from Lady Justice. When your master activation ends up with you suffering more damage than your opponent, you start to question the choices you made. When they are prepared to cheat in the red joker to make you miss and take damage, you take a lot more care about random attacks. 

This sort of ability is something that you need to train your opponent to fear to get the best out of it. It can take several games against the same opponent who is prepared to push this sort of defensive trigger before most players start to worry about them, because, if the owner of the trigger doesn't value it, then you are right, its never going to come up. 

So in answer to

1, Most attacks in the game are vs Df. Sure, they can tech in WP attacks you avoid the trigger, but then you are still often affecting their game play. 

2 Bishop is very mobile. he has a threat range longer than most models shooting range. Also there are several factions that don't have lots of non attacks. Bishop wants to be in combat, because that is where his defences apply . So Yes, he is weak to ranged attacks. But he is a good answer to ranged attackers (Friendly fire helps against other ranged attacks, as well as preventing the model he is engaged with using any ranged attacks, so against a ranged heavy crew, he has 2 reasons to want to get engaged). I expect Bishop to be able to be engaged with something if he wants.  The rarest attack is one without and, and whilst they exist on plenty of models, many more don't have them than do, and they are typically weaker attacks because of the other advantages they have. 

3 This is where the "training your opponent to fear it" comes in. Cage fighter protects you if your opponent is afraid to make attacks against you that they aren't prepared to support with cards from their hand. Its one of those things that it is hard for the owner of Bishop to see all the attacks that didn't happen because they had Cage fighter.

4 You have to have the crow to damage them. You have to have the capability to have the crow to make them consider not attacking. When I face models like this against Players I know that use this sort of ability, I have to assume that if they have any cards they are prepared to cheat them to get Cage fighter off. So the ability has an affect on the opponent even if you don't have the crow in hand. 

5 Yes, you probably have to use high crows to get the trigger off. But most people expect to use high cards to get around 3 damage off. Either because they are cheating their attack to hit, or because they are cheating their damage to severe. The difference is you are using the high card on your opponents action. That is more efficient. 

Lets take an example fight. Bishop has a 13in hand. Bishops opponent wins all other flips by 1, but can't cheat. I'm going to compare each side making 1 attack against the other (I know this isn't a typical scenario, but it gets complicated to explain with a "true" scenario, and I think the end result is still comparable).

The attacker attacks Bishop. they win. They are on a negative attack flip. They flip and hit weak, probably 2 damage. Bishop attacks back. He misses, cheats in the 13 and hits, putting Bishop on a negative flip. He hits weak and does 3 damage (I'm going to assume he selected rams as his suit). End result Bishop took 2 damage and the opponent took 3. 

The Attacker attacks Bishop, Bishop cheats in the Crow. The attacker takes 2 damage.  Bishop attacks the attacker and misses. End result Bishop took 0 damage the attacker took 2. - Already a more efficient outcome for Bishop in terms of overall damage per side. Its a slightly lower total damage put out by him, but his card did 2 things rather than 1, it got him a 2 damage hit, and it also denied a 2 damage hit. 

 

But all this is dependent on the Bishop player being prepared to try and force cage fighter, and the opponent to apricate the risks of cage fighter. And you aren't going to really appricate the risks of cage fighter unless you have played several games against people that do try and force it. 

So in terms of damage spread, it can be more efficient to cheat it for cage fighter rather than staggering punch. 

And that's before looking at things like action efficiency, because the second Bishop got his damage off without spending any actions.  

 

Now in a full game you might not want to spend your 13on Bishop because you think you'll get more effect on a model like the Viks. And you will be right some of the time. But if you are known to hold the 13 and use that on Bishops Df flip, your opponent will start to think twice about attacks on Bishop. Even if they have stat 6, thy need to be prepared to put in a 13 of their own to keep them safe. They probably don't have a 13. They don't know if Bishop has that 13 or not. If you are engaged with Bishop, you probably have to consider that he is capable to do 9 damage in his activation if you are engaged. if you add in that extra 2 damage from his df trigger, you are getting to enough damage to kill most non master models in the game. (Damage reduction tech will change these calculations, but even so, its putting several more models in range of death by Bishop in those circumstances. 

I'm not too bothered in my attack misses because my opponent spent a 13 on making it miss. The chances are that over the course of the turn, that card use will result in one of their attacks missing later, or another one of my attacks hitting. But when the opponent gets double duty out of a card, I do have to consider it more. 

Yes, there are times when you don't care too much about that extra damage. But there are more times when you will care about it because it does change the risk to models. 

Cage fighter (and similar) is a magical christmasland ability if the owner of the ability doesn't value it, or if the owner does value it, but doesn't get the cards to support it. If the owner does value it and either gets the cards to support it, or the opponent also values it then it can be a good ability. 

[LexLock]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Whilst you are partially right about the "magical Christmas land" feel to abilities like Cage fighter, I feel it really depends on long term play style. I know I rate these abilities higher than most people. I know the reason I do is because when I was learning my opponent would save high masks for Repost from Lady Justice. When your master activation ends up with you suffering more damage than your opponent, you start to question the choices you made. When they are prepared to cheat in the red joker to make you miss and take damage, you take a lot more care about random attacks. 

This sort of ability is something that you need to train your opponent to fear to get the best out of it. It can take several games against the same opponent who is prepared to push this sort of defensive trigger before most players start to worry about them, because, if the owner of the trigger doesn't value it, then you are right, its never going to come up. 

So in answer to

1, Most attacks in the game are vs Df. Sure, they can tech in WP attacks you avoid the trigger, but then you are still often affecting their game play. 

2 Bishop is very mobile. he has a threat range longer than most models shooting range. Also there are several factions that don't have lots of non attacks. Bishop wants to be in combat, because that is where his defences apply . So Yes, he is weak to ranged attacks. But he is a good answer to ranged attackers (Friendly fire helps against other ranged attacks, as well as preventing the model he is engaged with using any ranged attacks, so against a ranged heavy crew, he has 2 reasons to want to get engaged). I expect Bishop to be able to be engaged with something if he wants.  The rarest attack is one without and, and whilst they exist on plenty of models, many more don't have them than do, and they are typically weaker attacks because of the other advantages they have. 

3 This is where the "training your opponent to fear it" comes in. Cage fighter protects you if your opponent is afraid to make attacks against you that they aren't prepared to support with cards from their hand. Its one of those things that it is hard for the owner of Bishop to see all the attacks that didn't happen because they had Cage fighter.

4 You have to have the crow to damage them. You have to have the capability to have the crow to make them consider not attacking. When I face models like this against Players I know that use this sort of ability, I have to assume that if they have any cards they are prepared to cheat them to get Cage fighter off. So the ability has an affect on the opponent even if you don't have the crow in hand. 

5 Yes, you probably have to use high crows to get the trigger off. But most people expect to use high cards to get around 3 damage off. Either because they are cheating their attack to hit, or because they are cheating their damage to severe. The difference is you are using the high card on your opponents action. That is more efficient. 

Lets take an example fight. Bishop has a 13in hand. Bishops opponent wins all other flips by 1, but can't cheat. I'm going to compare each side making 1 attack against the other (I know this isn't a typical scenario, but it gets complicated to explain with a "true" scenario, and I think the end result is still comparable).

The attacker attacks Bishop. they win. They are on a negative attack flip. They flip and hit weak, probably 2 damage. Bishop attacks back. He misses, cheats in the 13 and hits, putting Bishop on a negative flip. He hits weak and does 3 damage (I'm going to assume he selected rams as his suit). End result Bishop took 2 damage and the opponent took 3. 

The Attacker attacks Bishop, Bishop cheats in the Crow. The attacker takes 2 damage.  Bishop attacks the attacker and misses. End result Bishop took 0 damage the attacker took 2. - Already a more efficient outcome for Bishop in terms of overall damage per side. Its a slightly lower total damage put out by him, but his card did 2 things rather than 1, it got him a 2 damage hit, and it also denied a 2 damage hit. 

 

But all this is dependent on the Bishop player being prepared to try and force cage fighter, and the opponent to apricate the risks of cage fighter. And you aren't going to really appricate the risks of cage fighter unless you have played several games against people that do try and force it. 

So in terms of damage spread, it can be more efficient to cheat it for cage fighter rather than staggering punch. 

And that's before looking at things like action efficiency, because the second Bishop got his damage off without spending any actions.  

 

Now in a full game you might not want to spend your 13on Bishop because you think you'll get more effect on a model like the Viks. And you will be right some of the time. But if you are known to hold the 13 and use that on Bishops Df flip, your opponent will start to think twice about attacks on Bishop. Even if they have stat 6, thy need to be prepared to put in a 13 of their own to keep them safe. They probably don't have a 13. They don't know if Bishop has that 13 or not. If you are engaged with Bishop, you probably have to consider that he is capable to do 9 damage in his activation if you are engaged. if you add in that extra 2 damage from his df trigger, you are getting to enough damage to kill most non master models in the game. (Damage reduction tech will change these calculations, but even so, its putting several more models in range of death by Bishop in those circumstances. 

I'm not too bothered in my attack misses because my opponent spent a 13 on making it miss. The chances are that over the course of the turn, that card use will result in one of their attacks missing later, or another one of my attacks hitting. But when the opponent gets double duty out of a card, I do have to consider it more. 

Yes, there are times when you don't care too much about that extra damage. But there are more times when you will care about it because it does change the risk to models. 

Cage fighter (and similar) is a magical christmasland ability if the owner of the ability doesn't value it, or if the owner does value it, but doesn't get the cards to support it. If the owner does value it and either gets the cards to support it, or the opponent also values it then it can be a good ability. 

Should you be relying on your opponent overvaluing abilities to get use out of them? Wait a second... does your post defending cage fighter surreptitiously make it ever so slightly more valuable because it convinces people to be careful against it? 🧠🧠🧠

[Adran]

1 minute ago, LexLock said:

Should you be relying on your opponent overvaluing abilities to get use out of them? Wait a second... does your post defending cage fighter surreptitiously make it ever so slightly more valuable because it convinces people to be careful against it? 🧠🧠🧠

I don't rely on my opponent over valuing it, but it is a trigger that does get a lot of its value from the opponents choices, and you can't always know how much it affected the game. If they choose to ignore its implications and you have the right cards to support it, then things should go well for you. If they ignore its implications and you either can't support it, or choose not to, then it will have almost no effect on the game. But the same can be said about a lot of things. If you typically choose to support the trigger, then the opponent should have to take it into consideration or suffer the consequences. 

In general most of my experience is as the person attacking the model with the Df trigger. Attacking the models with similar triggers has often been the wrong choice, because my opponent was prepared to support the trigger. There are certainly times when making those attacks paid off, either because my opponent couldn't support the trigger or choose not to support the trigger. I will fully admit if I face you and you don't value it at all but have it in your crew, you will be getting a bonus power boost from it until I realise you don't value it. 

[RisingPhoenix]

4 hours ago, LexLock said:

Should you be relying on your opponent overvaluing abilities to get use out of them? Wait a second... does your post defending cage fighter surreptitiously make it ever so slightly more valuable because it convinces people to be careful against it? 🧠🧠🧠

That's what it boils down to with things like Cage Fighter.  You have to count on your opponents playing scared.

If they rightly ignore the ability it rarely does anything to them.  If my opponent cheats in a red joker and I take 3 damage... gee.  Well I sure am glad that's where it got used.  The fact my opponent drew their red joker was going to do at least 3 damage to me somewhere along the line, I don't mind if it's here.  The idea that I was somehow going to end my turn taking zero damage when my opponent drew their red joker... not logical.  I'm going to suffer, if it's there ah well.  Could be worse.

 

Quote

Now in a full game you might not want to spend your 13on Bishop because you think you'll get more effect on a model like the Viks. And you will be right some of the time. But if you are known to hold the 13 and use that on Bishops Df flip, your opponent will start to think twice about attacks on Bishop.

Like no I'm not.  This is just relying on your opponent to make bad decisions.  Like, the odds of you drawing a 12/13/Red Joker in a specific suit are sub-10%.  If I didn't know those odds, maybe I'd make a bad decision, but if you happened to draw that this turn?  Wow, I take some damage.  I mean what am I sending in to Bishop anyway?  Probably something like Arik or VS, I'll take 1/2/3 damage (or 1/1/2) on the 10% of the time you drew that.  90% of the time you won't have drawn that, then Bishop is dead.  And hell, maybe you totally go nuts and drew it... and then Arik does 8 damage to Bishop with his next attack because I save my Red Jokers to cheat in on Arik's damage flips and 8 is a hilarious number (bonus points if I can fist Bishop into hazardous terrain there and full 100-0 him in one attack)

Frankly it almost feels like the trigger is making you make bad decisions yourself, like using a red joker on it rather than yeeting models to the shadow realm. 

 

[Alerteddonkey42]

2 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

That's what it boils down to with things like Cage Fighter.  You have to count on your opponents playing scared.

If they rightly ignore the ability it rarely does anything to them.  If my opponent cheats in a red joker and I take 3 damage... gee.  Well I sure am glad that's where it got used.  The fact my opponent drew their red joker was going to do at least 3 damage to me somewhere along the line, I don't mind if it's here.  The idea that I was somehow going to end my turn taking zero damage when my opponent drew their red joker... not logical.  I'm going to suffer, if it's there ah well.  Could be worse.

 

Like no I'm not.  This is just relying on your opponent to make bad decisions.  Like, the odds of you drawing a 12/13/Red Joker in a specific suit are sub-10%.  If I didn't know those odds, maybe I'd make a bad decision, but if you happened to draw that this turn?  Wow, I take some damage.  I mean what am I sending in to Bishop anyway?  Probably something like Arik or VS, I'll take 1/2/3 damage (or 1/1/2) on the 10% of the time you drew that.  90% of the time you won't have drawn that, then Bishop is dead.  And hell, maybe you totally go nuts and drew it... and then Arik does 8 damage to Bishop with his next attack because I save my Red Jokers to cheat in on Arik's damage flips and 8 is a hilarious number (bonus points if I can fist Bishop into hazardous terrain there and full 100-0 him in one attack)

Frankly it almost feels like the trigger is making you make bad decisions yourself, like using a red joker on it rather than yeeting models to the shadow realm. 

 

Completely agree with this. The opponent needs a high card with a specific suit for Bishop. I just need any high card and I win ties as the attacker. Using the red joker to get off cage fighter seems like the low end of the potential uses for the red joker. Yeah, it makes throwing low stat melee attacks that I don’t plan to cheat a bad proposition, but I wasn’t going to do that anyway (I usually don’t want my schemers walking into melee to throw out a random attack). 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I use Parry instead of Cage Fighter, but the same principle applies.

I find that if opponents don't respect Parry, then they are going to see themselves taking damage for an 8 or 9 of rams... Doing 2 damage + making an attack miss is REALLY good value for a moderate. So I don't think people should sleep on the value of the moderates either.  And with df 6, you're cheating second almost half the time.

Also, I think Cage Fighter is basically 2 damage, not 3 damage, right? You suffer accuracy modifiers so generally will be on a minus flip, so the expected damage is 2?

[SEV]

The defensive trigger that you need to plan for are usually the after resolving trigger. 

Cage fighter or parry are a bit better on an henchman like Babaros since it can stone for it (you at least need to take this in to consideration... But most of the time the right call is to attack anyway).

 

[Azahul]

Barbaros doesn't care though cos Black Blood means he'll do damage if he takes damage and between armour and stones it'll usually be the same amount of damage as he takes anyway 

[Azahul]

I agree with @Maniacal_cackleand @Adranthough, it's not the Severes and Red Jokers winning duels at the top of the turn that make Cage Fighting relevant, it's those moderate cards for the mid-turn when the opponent has already made their big plays of the turn and now you're able to get double value out of a card. Some of you may not think 2 damage is relevant, but 2 damage for 0 AP that makes one of your opponent's AP fail is actually extremely good value. It is giving you two benefits and leaving Bishop with three AP he can use to do more work with. Yeah, it won't likely go off if Bishop is your opponent's primary target for the turn, but we've got a whole crew to keep that from happening.

[Adran]

22 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

That's what it boils down to with things like Cage Fighter.  You have to count on your opponents playing scared.

If they rightly ignore the ability it rarely does anything to them.  If my opponent cheats in a red joker and I take 3 damage... gee.  Well I sure am glad that's where it got used.  The fact my opponent drew their red joker was going to do at least 3 damage to me somewhere along the line, I don't mind if it's here.  The idea that I was somehow going to end my turn taking zero damage when my opponent drew their red joker... not logical.  I'm going to suffer, if it's there ah well.  Could be worse.

I disagree. If they ignore the ability totally, and you don't then you will probably find that you get to do 8-10 damage to them over the course of a game with it. Thats 1 or 2 dead models for 0 actions on the opponents side. 

 

22 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Like no I'm not.  This is just relying on your opponent to make bad decisions.  Like, the odds of you drawing a 12/13/Red Joker in a specific suit are sub-10%.  If I didn't know those odds, maybe I'd make a bad decision, but if you happened to draw that this turn?  Wow, I take some damage.  I mean what am I sending in to Bishop anyway?  Probably something like Arik or VS, I'll take 1/2/3 damage (or 1/1/2) on the 10% of the time you drew that.  90% of the time you won't have drawn that, then Bishop is dead.  And hell, maybe you totally go nuts and drew it... and then Arik does 8 damage to Bishop with his next attack because I save my Red Jokers to cheat in on Arik's damage flips and 8 is a hilarious number (bonus points if I can fist Bishop into hazardous terrain there and full 100-0 him in one attack)

Frankly it almost feels like the trigger is making you make bad decisions yourself, like using a red joker on it rather than yeeting models to the shadow realm. 

 

I know the odds of them having those cards are low. But I feel I have to consider the what if they have them. Is the chance that 10% of the time they will be able to make me miss and cause me damage worth the risk of the attack?  

Arik and Von Schill are models that aren't going to be hugely bothered by cage fighter. But they also aren't going to be bothered by Onslaught from Hinamatsu for exactly the same argument, and that doesn't make Onslaught a bad ability just because its not worth me spending any resources on trying to get Hamamatsu to onslaught vs an armoured model. (Also its Flurry has a similar justification).  There are 2 differences in the examples of comparing Onslaught from Hinamatsu and Cage fighter from Bishop vs armour. Firstly,  Hinamatsu player is getting the choice of who to attack, and they should know who is a bad target. They may be able to arrange to attack a good target, whilst the Bishop player doesn't know for certain who will attack Bishop each turn, and if they don't try and cage fighter the attack from Arik, they may not get another chance that turn to do it, so the opportunity cost is part of the risk you need to evaluate. The second difference is that Hinamatsu is spending an action, whilst Bishop is not. 

(And the odds of Arik making 2 attacks against Bishop, winning both on the flip and the second one reaching straight flip against bishop (either through puncture or winning by 6 or more) and you having a red joker in hand really is Christmas wonderland. The chances of Arik killing Bishop in 1 activation are low. They are much higher than Bishop killing Arik in 1 activation, but still low)

Bishop shouldn't be facing up against armoured beaters as his first choice of opponent. Bishop should be bullying support models. If you are facing Armour, Bishop is a possibly bad choice because his strength is lots of attacks. Armour is good against lots of attacks. Face a model with Hard to wound, or regen and they are much more likely to have to worry about that possible extra 2 damage. 

The odds of Bishop having drawn a 10+of crows is 57% I think . If I've got that right then that's half the hands he can reach 16 with the trigger.  If you are prepared to cheat your attack, or if you are happy to take the likely 2 damage (before prevention)in return then you're probably still fine to attack Bishop. If you aren't prepared to cheat the attack, or if the 2 damage puts you at risk, then you probably shouldn't attack him. 

 

Can we agree that if you're in range to die to a cage fighter hit, and you can't cheat your attack to higher than a 18, then its probably not worth the risk to attack Bishop if you know that your opponent has cheated in a high crow for the trigger in other turns and they still have cards in hand?

If we can agree that, then the trigger is having an affect on the game, even if the player doesn't have the card in hand. Maybe I remember the bad times too much, and am over cautious. Sure 9 times out of 10 I can do that attack and live,  but does that pay off the outcome where 1 time out of 10 I die? Often to me, it doesn't. 

[Alerteddonkey42]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

I disagree. If they ignore the ability totally, and you don't then you will probably find that you get to do 8-10 damage to them over the course of a game with it. Thats 1 or 2 dead models for 0 actions on the opponents side. 

 

I know the odds of them having those cards are low. But I feel I have to consider the what if they have them. Is the chance that 10% of the time they will be able to make me miss and cause me damage worth the risk of the attack?  

Arik and Von Schill are models that aren't going to be hugely bothered by cage fighter. But they also aren't going to be bothered by Onslaught from Hinamatsu for exactly the same argument, and that doesn't make Onslaught a bad ability just because its not worth me spending any resources on trying to get Hamamatsu to onslaught vs an armoured model. (Also its Flurry has a similar justification).  There are 2 differences in the examples of comparing Onslaught from Hinamatsu and Cage fighter from Bishop vs armour. Firstly,  Hinamatsu player is getting the choice of who to attack, and they should know who is a bad target. They may be able to arrange to attack a good target, whilst the Bishop player doesn't know for certain who will attack Bishop each turn, and if they don't try and cage fighter the attack from Arik, they may not get another chance that turn to do it, so the opportunity cost is part of the risk you need to evaluate. The second difference is that Hinamatsu is spending an action, whilst Bishop is not. 

(And the odds of Arik making 2 attacks against Bishop, winning both on the flip and the second one reaching straight flip against bishop (either through puncture or winning by 6 or more) and you having a red joker in hand really is Christmas wonderland. The chances of Arik killing Bishop in 1 activation are low. They are much higher than Bishop killing Arik in 1 activation, but still low)

Bishop shouldn't be facing up against armoured beaters as his first choice of opponent. Bishop should be bullying support models. If you are facing Armour, Bishop is a possibly bad choice because his strength is lots of attacks. Armour is good against lots of attacks. Face a model with Hard to wound, or regen and they are much more likely to have to worry about that possible extra 2 damage. 

The odds of Bishop having drawn a 10+of crows is 57% I think . If I've got that right then that's half the hands he can reach 16 with the trigger.  If you are prepared to cheat your attack, or if you are happy to take the likely 2 damage (before prevention)in return then you're probably still fine to attack Bishop. If you aren't prepared to cheat the attack, or if the 2 damage puts you at risk, then you probably shouldn't attack him. 

 

Can we agree that if you're in range to die to a cage fighter hit, and you can't cheat your attack to higher than a 18, then its probably not worth the risk to attack Bishop if you know that your opponent has cheated in a high crow for the trigger in other turns and they still have cards in hand?

If we can agree that, then the trigger is having an affect on the game, even if the player doesn't have the card in hand. Maybe I remember the bad times too much, and am over cautious. Sure 9 times out of 10 I can do that attack and live,  but does that pay off the outcome where 1 time out of 10 I die? Often to me, it doesn't. 

The onslaught trigger comparison doesn’t do much for the cage fighter argument. Onslaught isn’t that bad against armored targets (plink them down, but armor piercing can also be used), Hinamatsu is a henchman (stone for suits and damage reduction), better defensive tech in armor too (stones and armor together make Hina really tanky), a built in plus flip to better find suits and high cards, good mobility with mv 6 and rush (still betting multiple attacks after a walk charge with flurry and onslaught), and another trigger to take (the previously mentioned armor piercing). If we are saying that cage fighter deters attacks, then it should be compared to other defensive tech. 
I do think some bad experiences have really affected your outlook of the potential this ability has. This isn’t a bad thing, but I don’t think this outlook and the results will hold true in every meta. I’m interested in the estimates of damage of 8-10 over a game. I would anticipate 1 (max 2) hits back a game if your opponent is playing well and you’re saving cards to try this. The card commitment for this is intensive in a keyword that, again, has other card hungry models and little card draw. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

18 minutes ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I do think some bad experiences have really affected your outlook of the potential this ability has. This isn’t a bad thing, but I don’t think this outlook and the results will hold true in every meta. I’m interested in the estimates of damage of 8-10 over a game. I would anticipate 1 (max 2) hits back a game if your opponent is playing well and you’re saving cards to try this. The card commitment for this is intensive in a keyword that, again, has other card hungry models and little card draw. 

I've definitely had games where the parry trigger has done in the range of 8-10 damage. Sometimes your opponent flips a 2 on the attack and they're not willing to spend a card to just not get parried.

19 minutes ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I would anticipate 1 (max 2) hits back a game if your opponent is playing well

Well, that was the original point of the whole discussion - if you're forcing your opponent to alter behaviour to play well, then the ability is having an impact that you're not seeing. So it isn't wasted text if it is changing how your opponent has to play.

[Adran]

22 minutes ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I do think some bad experiences have really affected your outlook of the potential this ability has. This isn’t a bad thing, but I don’t think this outlook and the results will hold true in every meta. I’m interested in the estimates of damage of 8-10 over a game. I would anticipate 1 (max 2) hits back a game if your opponent is playing well and you’re saving cards to try this. The card commitment for this is intensive in a keyword that, again, has other card hungry models and little card draw. 

My logic is that if you are ignoring the ability you would make multiple attacks against bishop that you weren't prepared to support, because that what happens against other models. It's fairly likely that bishop is capable of getting at least 1 trigger a turn if you are trying and the attacker is making speculative attacks. If the attacker isn't making those speculative attacks, because of the threat of cage fighter ( which is what I think is good play) then you won't get that many successful triggers, but because it has already stopped attacks against bishop, so its still doing work. 

Once you have trained your opponents to be careful about speculative attacks, you don't have to use as many cards on it. But it does take a while to get to that level, and if you cut out early, then you lose the threat. So it's got it's own feedback loop based on how much the bishop ( et al) player is prepared to hold the cards and how speculative the attack can be.