Errata 2022 - Ten Thunders

[50 SS Enforcer]

Errata 2022 is fast approaching, what do you expect to be touched in faction?
What do you want touched that you suspect will not be?

What do you think will be bad touched? (Fuhatsu nerf incoming!)
 

Let’s see those thunderous takes! 

[TheUnseemlyOne]

I would like Yasunori to be revisited.  As he is now, he’s an awesome looking paperweight 

[Math Mathonwy]

Yeah, Yasunori could certainly be looked at again - they did go overboard with the nerf on him (a nerf was needed but not quite that punishing).

Mei1 could use a bit of a boost of some sort.

Fuhatsu could be toned down (though care should be taken to not let the Samurai simply overtake him).

Kunoichi and Geishas could probably be buffed a bit.

[Mindbadger]

I would quite like to see a Mr Graves buff in Honeypot. He doesn't seem to really have a place in the crew, not resilient enough to be a tanky beater and with black blood, is a bit of a liability in a bubble crew.

The rest of Honeypot seems decent enough whilst still having reasonable weaknesses to exploit.

[korgal]

Yasunori needs to be revised. This figurine is beautiful and I find that it did not need to errata to the gg1.

I don't know if Fuhatsu needs to errata as there are effective ways in the game to make it less effective.

Maybe the Ten Thunders brothers need some errata because I've never seen them in play.

[50 SS Enforcer]

5 hours ago, korgal said:

I don't know if Fuhatsu needs to errata as there are effective ways in the game to make it less effective.

Please let me know how exactly you think that is. I cannot keep up with fuhatsu supported by huggy and lynch 2, the amount of card draw and rig the crew has is pretty ridiculous, and my faction doesn’t have a lot of ranged neutralization that isn’t countered by laugh off. 10 thunders are already extremely strong into ressers, but this just takes the cake. Fuhatsu is a NPE and currently the only thing I would actively nerf in thunders. I’d rather see buffs making other models viable while lowering his power lever by making him an enforcer and losing laugh off. The 4/6/8 damage track is pretty gnarly with stone use, and defensively the stones are making it so, with hard to wound and armor 1, I’m sinking an incredible amount of AP into him(including movement because he is ranged 12). My go to counter would be launching inkiro into him, but with charm warders in faction, my opponent declares 2 no matter what when I declare Kirai. So I’ve stopped taking Kirai into thunders at all. I’m really a buff everything kind of guy, so my logic is if I think something is too strong, it’s probably too strong. 

[regleant]

3 hours ago, 50 SS Enforcer said:

10 thunders are already extremely strong into ressers, but this just takes the cake. Fuhatsu is a NPE and currently the only thing I would actively nerf in thunders

My resser opponent rarely has issue with Fuhatsu. His absurdly low Willpower makes him an easy target for a lot of manipulation. My opponent often runs Molly, Kurai, and McMourning, and Fuhatsu might be able to take down a single model before he gets tied up and made worthless (put him into range of Boring Conversation, for example). Also note Fuhatsu is a lot of points, and if he's just guns'a'blazing, that's a lot of points not actively scoring points. And as a Resser, Fuhatsu is almost always at a negative flip for damage.

 

All in, I don't find Fuhatsu OP given how easy he is to neuter, and given how other faction have much stronger guns. Ever play into Von Schill? 

[TheUnseemlyOne]

I just saw some Ruffians on my desk. I keep almost painting them and then just thinking why would I?  They’re really not worth it as they are. I had actually completely forgotten about them, as much as I never use them 

[50 SS Enforcer]

58 minutes ago, regleant said:

All in, I don't find Fuhatsu OP given how easy he is to neuter, and given how other faction have much stronger guns. Ever play into Von Schill? 

I play two factions, ressers and outcasts and I dabble in everything else(community models for everyone to play anything). Von schill suffers into fuhatsu as well, it’s the close to 50 points of healing fuhatsu gets over the game. Who are you taking fuhatsu with? Master declaration changes how models work. He might not be OP in one keyword but busted in another 😜. 

[Necrokamo]

@50 SS Enforcer, the resser have mind control (manipulation) and for the freikorps the opposing armor is a joke.  Fuhatsu's weakness is, apart from his low willpower, his low mobility which makes him almost a turret more than a tank.

Returning to the topic, I am in favor of Yasunori receiving a revision to his unfair nerf and aside I think that the kunoichi should have an improvement.

 

[Morgan Vening]

1 hour ago, Necrokamo said:

Returning to the topic, I am in favor of Yasunori receiving a revision to his unfair nerf and aside I think that the kunoichi should have an improvement.

Geisha too. 4SS for 4W Df4, and her primary ability is to assist enemies in closing on her, is just pissing away Soulstones for the most part. Especially when Bunraku already exist in Keyword as a cheap option (also Hinamatsu and Kabuki, but you might want to use those for something else).

Oh, the Distraction Aura is awesome. But given the fragility of this model, it's at best, a two turn thing (end of one, start of the second). So you better get your value out of it.

Also suffers from no Bonus. I stand by my opinion that all models should have a bonus action, even if it's near trivial. To have it fit with the apparent role of the Geisha, how about...

 <insert appropriate name here>: Until the end of this model's activation, when using the Lure Action, choose a friendly model within X". The target model moves towards that model instead.

You can give it a TN if needed, you can make it only against Enemy Models (if it's found to be a problem with moving friendlies), you can adjust the X to be an appropriate distance (I think 6" would be fine to start, expand it out or contract it if necessary.

Fits with the idea of geisha being hosts between two parties, rather than the focus of attention.

EDIT- Or just change it to Beckoning Call, which already exists, as @Gheist pointed out. Still needs a bonus action, even if it's trivial. I was thinking Quick Retreat if it survives the initial engagement, but if it's given Beckoning Call, combined with Distraction it wouldn't be needed as moving the opponent away would be near trivial. Follow My Path? That's my go-to for the definition of a minor bonus action.

[Gheist]

I don't really see why fuhatsu would be nerfed. If at all, make him 10SS Cost so Samurai get more appeal

On 1/9/2022 at 7:08 PM, TheUnseemlyOne said:

I just saw some Ruffians on my desk. I keep almost painting them and then just thinking why would I?  They’re really not worth it as they are. I had actually completely forgotten about them, as much as I never use them 

I just  finished painting them and looked over the cards and tought... nothing much. Maybe give Hard to kill to them? or smething defensive? and even then the other in Keyword Minions are so good (Cryptologists i haven't found a use for yet)  still don't see me taking them. But fun to paint.

1 hour ago, Necrokamo said:

@50 SS Enforcer, the resser have mind control (manipulation) and for the freikorps the opposing armor is a joke.  Fuhatsu's weakness is, apart from his low willpower, his low mobility which makes him almost a turret more than a tank.

Returning to the topic, I am in favor of Yasunori receiving a revision to his unfair nerf and aside I think that the kunoichi should have an improvement.

I second the Yasunori Buff, right now i only take him because it's such a goodlooking model

46 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

 <insert appropriate name here>: Until the end of this model's activation, when using the Lure Action, choose a friendly model within X". The target model moves towards that model instead.

You can give it a TN if needed, you can make it only against Enemy Models (if it's found to be a problem with moving friendlies), you can adjust the X to be an appropriate distance (I think 6" would be fine to start, expand it out or contract it if necessary.

That's a great idea, although changing lure to beckoning Call might serve the same purpose and would make them much more useful as well

[santaclaws01]

On 1/9/2022 at 12:45 PM, regleant said:

My resser opponent rarely has issue with Fuhatsu. His absurdly low Willpower makes him an easy target for a lot of manipulation. My opponent often runs Molly, Kurai, and McMourning, and Fuhatsu might be able to take down a single model before he gets tied up and made worthless (put him into range of Boring Conversation, for example). Also note Fuhatsu is a lot of points, and if he's just guns'a'blazing, that's a lot of points not actively scoring points. And as a Resser, Fuhatsu is almost always at a negative flip for damage.

He's vulnerable to a lot of manipulation yeah, but it's not like 10T is lacking ways to just negate that manipulation, especially if he's taken with Shenlong. The only real things that concern him are stuff like Obey or the low number of actions that can actually shut him off from his crew in some way that don't also involve moving him, because he has laugh off.

Getting a boring conversation aura overlapping him is nice sure, until the opponent just moves Fuhatsu or the BC model out of range, or Fuhatsu just walks away and still gets 2 shots.

As for HtW, honestly it's more of a liability than anything else against Fuhatsu unless he's got focus. His attacks are most likely hitting, and you're just giving more cards flipped for a joker.

As for getting into the actual problems Fuhatsu causes, he's a powerful ranged model that needs very specific tech taken to actually counter him. You can't just engage him to at least put him on 1 attack because he has Scamper and Rapid Fire. Not to mention he's very easily min 3 or even 4 and that causes a massive problem. Remember what happened to the other 3 min 3 ranged model that couldn't be stopped by just engaging her?

Also not sure why you're including that last point. So many models do the exact role Fuhatsu does, large stone beater model whose primary purpose isn't to score points, that get taken just as frequently and do their jobs worse than Fuhatsu does. Just having to deal with Fuhatsu completely warps a gameplan unless you happen to have the limited tech that's available to neutralize him. His presence sets up a large area of denial that his opponents have to deal with somehow, and it's not like schemes don't exist that are reliant on killing or damage that Fuhatsu can score perfectly fine even if he's "just guns'a'blazing".

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think the bigger thing Ressers offer that shuts down Fuhatsu is Anna Lovelace.

Hostile Work Environment is such a massive counter to the support engine, and she is tanky enough to withstand the shots getting into position. She can also Glimpse the Void him xD

But that sort of sums it up - only extremely niche tech presents a big threat to Fuhatsu IMO.

[Azahul]

I'm not discounting how good Fuhatsu is, but he is a 9 stone, Min 2 (yes he can boost that but then you basically need to treat his cost as +1 per shot), not super mobile ranged fighter who doesn't ignore Cover. I've seen him do tremendous work, I've also seen him spend two activations chipping an in cover Incorporeal model for 1 health per attack and then dying. Sure he flips through half the deck to fish for a Joker, but not all the Jokers in the deck are good.

 

So I don't think his output is out of line. He is possibly a bit too hard to deal with. Removing Laugh Off feels like it might risk trivialising him, I'm not sure? Maybe cutting Hard to Wound so he doesn't soak quite so well?

[Spitfire]

I'm really not hoping Wyrd is going to touch Yasunori, because since i started in 2e he's only ever been touched in a saddening way which made me never repair him after he broke off his base ^^'

 

[Morgan Vening]

10 hours ago, Spitfire said:

I'm really not hoping Wyrd is going to touch Yasunori, because since i started in 2e he's only ever been touched in a saddening way which made me never repair him after he broke off his base ^^'

I mean, to be fair, in his introduction to both editions, he was kinda busted.

The problem is, they overcorrected both times, and then just kinda ignored him. Which is a shame, because outside the Shadow Emissary, he's kinda THE showcase model for Ten Thunders.

[Spitfire]

I don't deny that. Though i never put him on the table in M3e cause i re-joined kinda late after thze transition killed some of my motivation.

But yea, they usually nerfed him face first to the ground and into irrelevance. Would be nice to see him in a better place but experience tells he probably won't be if he's touched ^^'

[TheUnseemlyOne]

At this point I don’t think it’ll make a difference if they make him worse or leave him untouched. In either case nobody is really using him, so I’d prefer a change to at least try to make him better. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don’t, and never have understood why Yasunori had to be a hipster type model that was trying to do rider type things without rider mechanics. Just make the front of the card identical to the other riders, give him ride or fly with me, and actions on the back similar to the other riders.

[Spitfire]

I suppose fluff reasons, thought i don't know big parts of the old fluff or because of the 4 riders of the Apocalypse. But yeah, having the normal rider mechanics would be good. Thought, would we want levi take lead of him? I can say no way he's getting our Yasunori!

[TheUnseemlyOne]

He could share the mechanics without having the rider keyword.  As he was when released, he was almost a rider thematically, he just keyed off of the opponents hand rather than generating tokens

[Fetid Strumpet]

I mean, as said, don't give him the rider keyword, or give him the rider keyword and let Levi have access to him, or give him the rider keyword and a separate rule that says he cannot be hired into other factions if Levi breaks having him. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Riders are notoriously difficult to balance at 11 stones.

Could just tone Yasunori down to 9 stones and give him value based on that level.

[Cats Laughing]

23 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Riders are notoriously difficult to balance at 11 stones.

Could just tone Yasunori down to 9 stones and give him value based on that level.

So what you're saying is just change his cost to 9 stones and change nothing else. Sounds reasonable, TBH.