Bultungin overlooked?

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Yes… the internet is brimming with stories of games won due to Pack Mentality 😏

It's a bit off topic, but Dead Rider has an ability to summon 5 mindless zombies and then have them all activate, 5 in a row...

So, it is something that can absolutely break games 😜 You get something like 6 stat six attacks (plus 4 weaker attacks).

The other big issue of course being pack mentality is an aura, so maintaining line of sight on 0" engagement models is... Not trivial 😜

[Gheist]

I Think Pack mentality needs it's radius increased to be worthwhile, most model that have the ability are low hp models who suffer from being clumped up.

I always felt that when playing against to bultungin that they would need one or even two of the following abilities to be good:

Stealth, Disguised, Butterfly Jump, Hard to Kill

my favourites being hard to kill and stealth, wouldn't make them much different from Ronin or Wandering river monks, and would give them the ability to fulfil that scheme runner role in both their keywords. Their biggest issue was getting shot to death by everything that had shooting attacks or getting casually slaughtered by something with focus and x/x/5 dmg Track

I think the model needs some love to be honest, even in the casual community i play in its a bit too soft for 5 points

[santaclaws01]

21 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Yes… the internet is brimming with stories of games won due to Pack Mentality

Sorry, I forgot there was no in-between of "useless" and "singlehandedly winning games"

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Sorry, I forgot there was no in-between of "useless" and "singlehandedly winning games"

Oh there is the ‘cute trick’ category 😊

[Gheist]

16 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Sorry, I forgot there was no in-between of "useless" and "singlehandedly winning games"

There is a lot of room, Bultungin are just sitting at the one end

[santaclaws01]

19 hours ago, Gheist said:

There is a lot of room, Bultungin are just sitting at the one end

Context would tell you that this was in regards specifically to Pack Tactics as an ability and not Bultungin as a package.

[Gheist]

On 12/16/2021 at 4:29 AM, santaclaws01 said:

Context would tell you that this was in regards specifically to Pack Tactics as an ability and not Bultungin as a package.

I am so sorry i misunderstood that. I think what i said stands as well for Pack mentality as it did for Bultungin. They seem connceted.

I am not good enough a player to set it up effectively is all i can say

[Regelridderen]

Going over this thread, I think, I can conclude that bultungin has indeed not been overlooked, they’ve been scrutinized quite closely, measured, weighed and found to be quite bad.

[santaclaws01]

19 hours ago, Gheist said:

I am so sorry i misunderstood that. I think what i said stands as well for Pack mentality as it did for Bultungin. They seem connceted.

I am not good enough a player to set it up effectively is all i can say

Bultungin just aren't models that can actually make use of pack mentality because of how the rest of their card plays. It's useless for them, but not as an ability itself.

Just like a hypothetical ability that would give crows to all actions on a model that has no interactions with crows. Useless for them, but it's still a good ability.

[Gheist]

3 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Bultungin just aren't models that can actually make use of pack mentality because of how the rest of their card plays. It's useless for them, but not as an ability itself.

Just like a hypothetical ability that would give crows to all actions on a model that has no interactions with crows. Useless for them, but it's still a good ability.

Okay, but: which of the five models that have the ability can make good use of it?

apart from the mindless zombie horde that getsa summoned by the dead rider every like 100 games ?

[RisingPhoenix]

On 12/10/2021 at 8:13 PM, AngelRogue said:

So, even with it only affecting during activation, would it be worth it or affective to hire all 3? That still is a high chance to hit, should something in their way needs to be killed. And a stat 7 towards toss in the mud makes it easier, if needed. 

I plan to still try it, to see. But I was curious about other people's opinions and experiences. 

Give it a shot.  I'd play it vs a melee crew, definitely never take it vs. a ranged crew.

My instincts with similarly squishy models is that your opponent is hopefully not stupid - they know if you have that many points in something they're gonna do something obnoxious.  And when they're easy to remove from the table... well, lots of stones, scary, why not remove 1-2 from the table?  Ranged crews can do this quite easily.  A single focus shot and a cheated severe removes 1, and 5 soulstones is a lot of pain to pay for a severe, an action, and a focus. 

The vast majority of 4-5 soulstone minions in this game (I'd say about 75%) need massive buffs.  Fortunately new models show Wyrd realizes this and the next errata should be a buff errata. 

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, Gheist said:

Okay, but: which of the five models that have the ability can make good use of it?

apart from the mindless zombie horde that getsa summoned by the dead rider every like 100 games ?

I've already gone over what is needed for a model to be able to make use of pact mentality, but of the six, here are which ones and why:

Literally every one except for the Bultungin and Corrupted Hounds.

Guild Hound: Summonable, so can come in and immediately make use of it, although being mindless takes away some of its utility.

Canine Remains: Summonable and isn't mindless, is also able to carry corpse markers around to give a vector for another Canine Remains to be summoned.

Mindless Zombies: Not only is it summonable, there are a lot of models that are able to summon them(including themselves), and some models can summon multiples of them at a time. Only downside is that they are mindless.

Marrionete: Summonable, and has a chance to ignore their mindless so they can start going instantly. Also they are durable for what they are and you summon up to 2 at a time.

[SEV]

Well it's settle : we need a new Fae/Savage hench that will be able to summon Bultunglin 😀

Something like a Gnoll king. C'mon Wyrd make this happen pls!

[extremor]

47 minutes ago, SEV said:

Well it's settle : we need a new Fae/Savage hench that will be able to summon Bultunglin 😀

Something like a Gnoll king. C'mon Wyrd make this happen pls!

Make the 🦖 dino give birth to bultungin 🤨

[santaclaws01]

8 minutes ago, extremor said:

Make the 🦖 dino give birth to bultungin 🤨

 

[Cats Laughing]

4 hours ago, extremor said:

Make the 🦖 dino give birth to bultungin 🤨

Next errata: M-Rex gains Demise (summon 3 Bultungin)

Nobody blinks

[Noxious Nephlim]

my last game was against titania, and she had a bultungin who prevented me from getting planted explosives by double walking and using forage that turn, so there's that ( tho it did get two hitted the next turn )

has anyone tried taking them as cheap sacrifices for killjoy?

[Morgan Vening]

4 hours ago, Noxious Nephlim said:

has anyone tried taking them as cheap sacrifices for killjoy?

Problem is that it's a little expensive for a model that needs to stay alive long enough to return Killjoy.

If I'm spending 10SS to situationally get it, why not spend a couple more SS and get something with some survivability or real utility, or get Corrupted Hounds and save some.

[Cats Laughing]

I see a few problems with using Bultungin for Killjoy's upgrades:

1) While they are move 6 and have Deadly pursuit for more speed, the 'resummon' Killjoy ability is a full action, not a bonus, so they really only get a 6" move then resummon, so it's not as far as some other options.

2) They're pretty squishy and if any opponent plans to downs Killjoy, there's a not unreasonable chance they'll be able to down a Bultungin too (and probably at range).

 

FWIW, Corrupted Hounds are just cheaper versions (as Morgan mentions above) but even easier to kill, and not actually much cheaper as they would have the OOK tax in a Fae crew.

 

I think Wicked Dolls are a better option for Killjoy upgrade caddies.  They are only move 5, but they have a bonus action move (so can move 10" before popping out Killjoy) and if you've got the right cards (high mask) you can also Threaten to give your target Adversary (Fae) and place the Wicked Doll in base contact before popping out Killjoy (with the bonus this can be an effective 13+" move before 'resummon').  They also have Stealth to stay reasonably safe compared to both Bultungin & Corrupted Hounds.  Threaten can just be a reasonable support action while Killjoy is still on table, so they aren't just being a caddie.

 

The above unfortunately isn't a 'how to use Bultungin' post.  

 

I see Bultungin as having a few things in their favor: 

1) Relatively cheap initial Underbrush markers

2) Fairly speedy scheme marker removal (2x walk then bonus forage)

 

[hahnberger]

I think unimpeded would be a huge boost for them, it would make hiding them in a forest much easier, which in turn could help them survive longer

[Morgan Vening]

4 hours ago, hahnberger said:

I think unimpeded would be a huge boost for them, it would make hiding them in a forest much easier, which in turn could help them survive longer

I think Favourable Terrain would be better, as it adds two additional defensive elements (essentially +1 Df, and H2W) against shooting attacks. And the ability to obliterate a Bultingin with a gun is part of their problem.

Might not be enough (as it doesn't affect non-shooting ranged attacks), but it'd help.

Be nice if they could move an Undergrowth marker with them (Bayou Smuggler's Drag Behind, even in a lesser form), but I'm just hoping they get a decent enough fix.

My Bultingin are probably my most favourite models (I think my guy did an awesome job) that'll never see the table in their current form.

[Omenbringer]

Could adding either Accomplice or Companion to the Bultungin make them a bit better without making them too good for their points? It would make running them in pairs a bit more viable. I might also make Pack Mentality apply all the time instead of just during their activation.

I don't consider these excessive improvements given it takes 10SS plus a Control Card or Pass token to pull off and restricts their range to 6" while only moderately improving the base models. Perhaps add an Upgrade (call it Bultungin Alpha) that allows the Bultungin to add the last one into the chain (i.e. bypassing the general rules for Chain Activation) for 1 SS each. The combo would be a total of 18 SS to add +2 to final duel totals while still having the costs above in terms of movement restrictions and control cards or pass tokens.

Just some thoughts.

[AngelRogue]

So I did end up playing the trio of bultungin into a Family crew. I definitely learned the lesson the hard way. I was still able to get the win, but the bultungin went down fast as soon as they left cover. At first, it actually seemed like it was going to work. For the first 2 turns, I moved them as the very last activations in the crew, and they were able to get right up on Santiago. At first, I was able to use the Old Ways effectively to stop them from going down. Then I was able to toss Santiago around for 2 activations to remove his focus and shielded, but then my opponent was able to A Por El some extra shots my way and they just dropped. Luckily, the 3rd was able to score me a point for Symbols and even take out a pistolero before it croaked. Though the crew was very fast, I definitely felt I would have been better served with the Rex or Emissary, than the 15 stones on Bultungin. 

I also think that if you can keep the bultungin moving as the very last activations, that maybe more use could be got out of them.

 

[Cats Laughing]

21 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Could adding either Accomplice or Companion to the Bultungin make them a bit better without making them too good for their points? It would make running them in pairs a bit more viable. <snip>

I don't consider these excessive improvements given it takes 10SS plus a Control Card or Pass token to pull off and restricts their range to 6" while only moderately improving the base models. <snip>

Just some thoughts.

I think there's some merit in this idea, but have a few comments to flesh out the idea:

Currently the Accomplice & Companion rules do no have restrictions on which of your friendly models triggers or gets to use so while adding the rules to the Bultungin is a buff to the Bultungin in someways it's more of a buff to the crew, as you could activate a Bultungin then Accomplice in Titania (if given the Accomplice rule) or activate the Malisaurus Rex then Companion in a Bultungin (if given the Companion rule).  I'm not saying either route is broken, but it's a consideration that these rules wouldn't necessarily be used to run pairs of Bultungin.  Also this buff wouldn't apply to just Fae, as Bultungin have the Savage keyword as well,

 

Theoretically the buff is the same. Any model's activation plus a Bultungin activation. Obviously the order is the difference.  Somehow my mind thinks the Accomplice Bultungin then any friend is a stronger buff, since in this case the second activation is any model whereas the Companion version the second activation is a Bultungin, but they both work out to be Bultungin + Any.

 

Bultungin activating first could bring the following buffs to a friendly model activating second via Accomplice:

-Toss in the Mud: Removes a debuff on your friendly model and moves it 2".  Could be done twice depending on range/relative placement or attempted twice if first flip fails. Deadly pursuit can help set that up.  Could be used to remove an enemy buff condition like shielding or focus (or even Burning/Poison/Distracted for some crews) prior to your accomplice model charging in.  This offensive option likely has only one shot and can be resisted, but could be quite good.

-Forage: In some rare cases and enemy scheme marker has some defensive ability (Sparks making them hazardous is the only one I can think of)

-Setting up a bit of pre-damage: I don't think any Fae/Savage models get bonuses when hitting a damaged model, but perhaps i'm forgetting something or theres something OOK/versatile that would benefit from having some damage on a target before going in.

-Pack Mentality for another Bultungin

 

Bultungin activating second via Companion would bring the following benefits:

-They'd get any buffs or target debuffs put down by the first model. The biggest I can think of (other than Pack Mentality) is the Rex's +crow buff, which is still very minor for the Bultungin. One supposes Injured from Aeslin or similar could apply here as well.

-Coordinated Attack trigger would be quite good for the model that went in first. Imagine getting extra attacks out of Titania on your target without any activation in between.  Potentially this is the buff that might be too much, but needing masks and needing to hit does limit this a bit.

 

The big thing about these benefits listed above is that you can already get them as Bultungin are written, but with Accomplice/Companion you could pay a card or pass token to let them happen without any opponent interference between the two activations. I'm leaning towards thinking either ability would be a fairly reasonable buff for Bultungin.

[Omenbringer]

I am actually more interested in buffing the Bultungin for the Savage key word than Fae.