Hot take: strategy markers should never be concealing or blocking.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Hot take: strategy markers should never be concealing or blocking. Impassable/dense for blocking LOS and just plain impassable is better IMO.

This season, 100% of strategy markers interfere with shooting. As a resser player, this never really bothered me (in fact, it is a massive advantage that Seamus can just teleport all over the map on 50% of the strategies).

But having broadened my horizons recently, it seems so rough that a LOT of models really suffer in GG2 just because all the places you score points also simultaneously provide protection against shooting. It seems unnecessary to just give models a huge hurdle on the strategy for attacking (or for models like Seamus, a huge buff).

Now I recognise that strategies should impact what models are viable, but this feels a bit over the top to me. Break the line is an AP-heavy, combat-heavy strategy most of the time, and that has a huge effect on model selection. Adding in terrain elements (when boards should already be designed to offer a ton of protection from shooting) feels over the top to me.

Anyone else think this? Or am I just reacting too strongly for being a bit new to shooting? I do feel quite dirty being a resser player now xD

[Mycellanious]

It never really bothered me (but I play crews that benefit from it). You don't think shooting crews would be too powerful if the Markers didnt have terrain traits? The area around markers generally has to be clear for the strat to work properly, so it can create a large section of the board without any LoS obstructing terrain

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

It never really bothered me (but I play crews that benefit from it). You don't think shooting crews would be too powerful if the Markers didnt have terrain traits? The area around markers generally has to be clear for the strat to work properly, so it can create a large section of the board without any LoS obstructing terrain

Thats a fair point, there may be a board construction difference.

I always put terrain near markers or vice versa (partially as the board is so packed it is hard not to).

Personally I am finding that some models I just dismiss outright on Break the Line because concealing is so damaging to them.

And while these models are balanced around the idea that some parts of the board are protected by terrain, it gets tricky when 100% of the places you can score points are protected by terrain.

On Break the Line for example you can already throw the markers places that are relatively safe, and this just gives that extra layer of protection.

[dannydb]

Honestly for me, I'd just be happy if strategy markers had consistant traits 

 

 

Trying to remember which strats they have concilment, which strats they are blocking ect is just frustrating and I wish wyrd would just settle on consistant traits 

[im_open_to_suggestions]

Makes more sense for them to be blocking in my mind.  i agree with above tho that there should be consistency across the strats.  

[Angelshard]

@dannydb a quick way to remember it is that markers that can't be moved or removed (turf war, leylines) are ht5, blocking.

Markers that can be moved or removed (break the line, symbols) are ht0, concealing. 

All strategy markers are impassable. 

As for the advantage against shooing. Personally I feel that the ht0 markers impact me more, as I look for range 2" models, to deny intact at the marker. 

If the markers were just impassable I'm afraid people would get shot off them quite often, but it also depends very much in the terrain meta. I've found that when I discuss the viability of models with people online, terrain is one of the biggest factors for why our opinions differ. 

[DuBlanck]

6 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

If the markers were just impassable I'm afraid people would get shot off them quite often

I think this is the most relevant consideration - you are (usually) sticking your neck out by sacrificing AP/position etc. just to push the button.

[Maniacal_cackle]

39 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

If the markers were just impassable I'm afraid people would get shot off them quite often, but it also depends very much in the terrain meta. I've found that when I discuss the viability of models with people online, terrain is one of the biggest factors for why our opinions differ. 

To some degree, this makes me want this change even more.

Terrain should be terrain, and have a unique impact on every game. Strategies should be objectives, and have their own impact on the game.

It feels strange to me that no matter what meta you're in or what your TO wants to do to the tables, Seamus gets his blocking terrain spaced 12" apart on 50% of tables before you even start placing terrain.

[Scoffer]

I think strategy markers should have terrain traits, because it's thematic. They are not just "objectives" you can't put your boot on - they are more or less material objects in the world of Malifaux. Idols, flags, pillars with mystic runes etc have physical characteristics in real world that are represented by terrain traits in the game. 

Terrain is one of the things you have to think about while building your crew. Strategy markers add some more terrain - and it's fine even if some models have some benefits from it and other models suffer a little more. 

P.S. One of my favourite m2e strategies was about pushing a wagon (represented by a 50mm marker). I really really want it back and I want a wagon be a wagon.

[SEV]

I agree with @Scofferon this one. Malifaux is a thematic game and as such it makes total sense to have real objective in the table.

I hope they vary it enough from a GG to an other so not always the same masters get some advantage from the types of markers... But beside that I'm totally fine with how it works.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, Scoffer said:

I think strategy markers should have terrain traits, because it's thematic. They are not just "objectives" you can't put your boot on - they are more or less material objects in the world of Malifaux. Idols, flags, pillars with mystic runes etc have physical characteristics in real world that are represented by terrain traits in the game. 

Terrain is one of the things you have to think about while building your crew. Strategy markers add some more terrain - and it's fine even if some models have some benefits from it and other models suffer a little more. 

P.S. One of my favourite m2e strategies was about pushing a wagon (represented by a 50mm marker). I really really want it back and I want a wagon be a wagon.

Well, mechanically you can define a wagon however you want - impassable & dense makes sense for a wagon composed of weak wood you can shoot through. You can't see the opponent on the other side, but if you shoot a gun through it they take the hits.

Although that makes me wonder, how open are people to other traits such as hazardous on a marker?

[solkan]

28 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Although that makes me wonder, how open are people to other traits such as hazardous on a marker?

Nightmare visions of a “lava table”.  😱

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, solkan said:

Nightmare visions of a “lava table”.  😱

 

Like this map?

Playing this on vassal sometimes xD

Although also hazardous markers would have been a good way to do corrupted idols.

[dannydb]

Kirai would love this board..... 

[Cranky Old Man]

Ivan loves concealing markers and Eva loves blocking (for secret passage).😄

 

I get what you are saying but I think that it will make things harder to be able to be next to marker for strat points. Those points are already hard to get and so many models can ignore the effects of concealing or cover etc.

[ShinChan]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:44 AM, Scoffer said:

I think strategy markers should have terrain traits, because it's thematic. They are not just "objectives" you can't put your boot on - they are more or less material objects in the world of Malifaux. Idols, flags, pillars with mystic runes etc have physical characteristics in real world that are represented by terrain traits in the game. 

Terrain is one of the things you have to think about while building your crew. Strategy markers add some more terrain - and it's fine even if some models have some benefits from it and other models suffer a little more. 

P.S. One of my favourite m2e strategies was about pushing a wagon (represented by a 50mm marker). I really really want it back and I want a wagon be a wagon.

This! Listen to the voice of reason!

[RisingPhoenix]

Shooting is better than melee fundamentally.  Hurting shooting is good, everything should hurt shooting more than melee because it starts with a fundamental advantage. 

Having the markers be impassible is already hurting melee.  If they don't hurt shooting that's bad. 

Outcast player, we're arguably the shootiest faction, no faction bias.  Just mechanics.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Shooting is better than melee fundamentally.  Hurting shooting is good, everything should hurt shooting more than melee because it starts with a fundamental advantage. 

Having the markers be impassible is already hurting melee.  If they don't hurt shooting that's bad. 

Outcast player, we're arguably the shootiest faction, no faction bias.  Just mechanics.

On the flip side, having markers sort of hurts shooting already, as they need to run forward and grab markers.

[RisingPhoenix]

That's true (although with Parker you can do both) but at a basic level ranged deserves to be hindered as much as melee because it's fundamentally better.

We already have a very ranged friendly strat in Turf War, where ranged lets you pop someone off a table quarter without putting yourself on it, making denying scoring much easier.  Being able to attack all four quarters at once is pretty powerful there (Rusty Alyce has used that many times).  Is it fair?  Well... you know the strat before you pick the crew, so hopefully you took it into account.  I think that basic flexibility is what makes it hard to make a truly unfair strat in Malifaux - unless a faction just does not have access to something (lots of ablative wounds with Idols is one of the few examples I can think of) you can pick into what's there.

I do agree it'd be cool if the markers were something.  Although that might create its own sort of fiction issues (the Malifaux Child picks up the large important monument!) it'd be neat.  Maybe some sort of visual marker pack or official printable 2D stand art for the symbols?  I'd love to see some sort of Guild/Neverborn/Arcanist/Resser symbol art pack that I could print out and glue to a base.