Vs Armor

[Thunderkat]

Just starting up and leaning heavy into outcasts .

What's I'd a good crew vs armor ? Say hoffman

[Jkkb]

Leveticus would probably be the best master against Hoffman.

Then again Outcast is quite lucky to have many OOK hires to deal with specifically armor. Mad Dog for one is a great beater with build in suit for ignore armor. Or you could use Arik, focus+stone could give you a severe of 7 with ignore armor trigger.

[Adran]

 Ronin are pretty handy against armour. 

[Azahul]

All up I think 50% of our Keywords have direct anti-armour (Leveticus with irreducible damage, Viktorias with the Ronin's armour ignoring swords, Mad Dog with his built in trigger to ignore armour, and Hamelin with the Obedient Wretch's Analyse Weakness), while other Keywords are often fine into armour because they're good at dealing chip damage (Tara has tools like Talos and Void Wretches that can give the opponent 1 point hits that chip them down, Von Schill can throw models into Land Mines and then have his henchmen push those models around, Daw has Montresor/the Hanging Tree pinging staggered models and access to a bit of Hazardous himself, etc.). And a few models, such as Arik and Hannah in Freikorps, are liable to just hit so hard armour isn't enough. Reducing 7 damage hits to 5 isn't going to keep you alive for long.

 

Basically, armour isn't something that Outcasts have a big problem with. Of the direct counters Mad Dog is probably the one brought OOK the most. He's a strong, flexible model with high output and can pivot to other targets once the armour is dead.

[thunderwolf]

Cheers I need buy Levi but that’s all interesting thx.

I have Parker Hamelin Tara and jackdaw atm so should be able to play some anti

thx

[admiralvorkraft]

Tara answers armor by burying the problem model and yeeting it into irrelevance 😛

[Zebo]

Freikorps has Arik, which ignores Armor, and Hannah, who can deal 9 damage (wich don't ignores armor, but it's enough to make it quite irrelevant). EDIT: oh, and how could I forgot about the Engineers? They also can ignore armor with their melee. 

 

Daw doesn't have anti-armor, but has enough executes to insta-kill any kodel full of life and armor. 

 

And they also have the Effigy, wich has a trigger to ignore armor

[Plaag]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:38 PM, Thunderkat said:

Just starting up and leaning heavy into outcasts .

What's I'd a good crew vs armor ? Say hoffman

any crew just hire mad dog ook

he is just so overpowered and goes in each crew

and it is a big problem-hope wyrd will solve it in future erratas

[RisingPhoenix]

Take Mad Dog OOK if you want to kill 1-2 armor pieces.  He's not OP, but Outcasts don't have too many answers to armor and he's one of the only ones.  Arik and Ronin are others, but I wouldn't declare Viks into Hoffman just for Ronin.  Arik+Mad Dog can be good dive buddies for killing armor.   

For Hoffman in particular, if you know it's Hoffman, then Leveticus or Hamlin can be a great declare.  Leveticus brings irreducible damage, can take Mad Dog easily, and also brings ping damage (Entropy).  Even if they try to throw a 'can't ignore my armor' beater at you, Leveticus can reliably land 4/5/6 damage melee attacks, which will kill even Armor 2 models very quickly (especially since many of them don't have high wounds).  

Hamlin is different, but basically you can roll your bubble into his bubble.  His models get bogged down by rats, he doesn't have tons of AOE damage, you can lure specific models out of his bubble, and once blight stacks high enough you can just evaporate models, armor or no armor.  It's not that analyze weakness is particularly good counter to Hoffman especially since it doesn't work on things he's buffed, it's that once you stack Blight 5-7 on a model it's taking half its health from Bleeding Disease whether you knock 2 off that or not, it's dead.  

Friekorps into Hoffman is trying to basically out-Hoffman Hoffman, but it can work. It's a safe declare, especially against Guild.  

P.S.  Mad Dog versatile is basically good for Friekorps (because he's a 3/4/5 stat 6 gun for Pull!) and to deal with armor.  You'd never take him in vs. Ressers, it's just that throwing armor models at us is very popular and people like declaring Hoffman.  

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Take Mad Dog OOK if you want to kill 1-2 armor pieces.  He's not OP, but Outcasts don't have too many answers to armor and he's one of the only ones.  Arik and Ronin are others, but I wouldn't declare Viks into Hoffman just for Ronin.  Arik+Mad Dog can be good dive buddies for killing armor.   

For Hoffman in particular, if you know it's Hoffman, then Leveticus or Hamlin can be a great declare.  Leveticus brings irreducible damage, can take Mad Dog easily, and also brings ping damage (Entropy).  Even if they try to throw a 'can't ignore my armor' beater at you, Leveticus can reliably land 4/5/6 damage melee attacks, which will kill even Armor 2 models very quickly (especially since many of them don't have high wounds).  

Hamlin is different, but basically you can roll your bubble into his bubble.  His models get bogged down by rats, he doesn't have tons of AOE damage, you can lure specific models out of his bubble, and once blight stacks high enough you can just evaporate models, armor or no armor.  It's not that analyze weakness is particularly good counter to Hoffman especially since it doesn't work on things he's buffed, it's that once you stack Blight 5-7 on a model it's taking half its health from Bleeding Disease whether you knock 2 off that or not, it's dead.  

Friekorps into Hoffman is trying to basically out-Hoffman Hoffman, but it can work. It's a safe declare, especially against Guild.  

P.S.  Mad Dog versatile is basically good for Friekorps (because he's a 3/4/5 stat 6 gun for Pull!) and to deal with armor.  You'd never take him in vs. Ressers, it's just that throwing armor models at us is very popular and people like declaring Hoffman.  

what are u talking abt-mad dog is op model that comes in each crew-u can take him against any opponent master

i and other good outcasts just hire each game and he make work like a master-removes schemes, kill most enemy crew, removes terrain also ignore cover on it, just insane

wyrd must remove his ability to take fast or built in trigger to ignore armor

[RisingPhoenix]

Well I'm glad you hire him every game.  I'm not sure that a requirement to be a "good" outcast player is to hire Mad Dog every game, nor is he out of line with what other 10 stone beaters bring to the table.   Certainly most of them get 3 actions in one way or another.  He is better than Taelor though, but that's a long subset of "pretty much everything."  

But the Fast is hardly free - unless you want him to play very close to your own models you're basically required to take the Hodgepodge Emissary, and that's 21 stones worth of hire.  That's... a lot.  More than hiring Parker as a second master, certainly.  

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Well I'm glad you hire him every game.  I'm not sure that a requirement to be a "good" outcast player is to hire Mad Dog every game, nor is he out of line with what other 10 stone beaters bring to the table.   Certainly most of them get 3 actions in one way or another.  He is better than Taelor though, but that's a long subset of "pretty much everything."  

But the Fast is hardly free - unless you want him to play very close to your own models you're basically required to take the Hodgepodge Emissary, and that's 21 stones worth of hire.  That's... a lot.  More than hiring Parker as a second master, certainly.  

ofcourse u would not hire emissary in outcasts-such a rare model in crew

and ofcourse u would not hire 1-2 scavengers, because they are too expansive....

[RisingPhoenix]

11 minutes ago, Plaag said:

ofcourse u would not hire emissary in outcasts-such a rare model in crew

and ofcourse u would not hire 1-2 scavengers, because they are too expansive....

Of course it's not.  But when you've sank 21 stones of your list into two models, yeah, I'd expect them to do something fantastic.  Once you're sinking 21 stones worth of your crew into something, it damn well better do work or you lose the game on the spot.  

What do Scavengers have to do with anything?  They can't drop scheme markers, outside of the usual way models drop scheme markers (that is to say take an Interact action) which, well, if you have a model that follows Mad Dog around zealously and drops a scheme marker every turn then really he's about a 20 stone model, and again that has to do work, that's the core of your crew.  

Outcasts have other options for core models than Mad Dog, and certainly all good lists do not have to revolve around Mad Dog.

[Burnin4tor]

I find outcasts in general don’t lack for guys to do what mad dog does, ie murder things. He’s a good consideration for armour heavy crews, but at 11 stones OOK that’s a pricey model. Every crew has plenty of killy models around the 9 stone mark that synergise better with their keyword shenanigans. I can see a place for him in Hamelin 2 but only because that title’s obey doesn’t seem to work the way it should do, but other than that he’s definitely no auto-pick

[admiralvorkraft]

11 hours ago, Burnin4tor said:

I find outcasts in general don’t lack for guys to do what mad dog does, ie murder things. He’s a good consideration for armour heavy crews, but at 11 stones OOK that’s a pricey model. Every crew has plenty of killy models around the 9 stone mark that synergise better with their keyword shenanigans. I can see a place for him in Hamelin 2 but only because that title’s obey doesn’t seem to work the way it should do, but other than that he’s definitely no auto-pick

Hamelin 2 is designed around obeying enemy models. He's got two triggers on Obey that only effect enemy models, and a front-of-card ability written to facilitate enemy obeys.

Not saying you can't build a crew around friendly obeys, it's just not how he's designed.

[Azahul]

3 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Hamelin 2 is designed around obeying enemy models. He's got two triggers on Obey that only effect enemy models, and a front-of-card ability written to facilitate enemy obeys.

Not saying you can't build a crew around friendly obeys, it's just not how he's designed.

I 100% agree, but I still find it more effective to build non-Keyword crews with him that he can obey in a pinch. After Nix, the Wretch, and the DCU I'm diving deep into Versatiles and OOK models for the rest of the crew. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

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@Azahul and @Axelst both have the same colour icon on this forum as well??????

Do you two coordinate??????

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Regarding the actual conversation, my impression of obey masters is they need friendlies to obey in case the opponent doesn't provide good obey targets.