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A bit of a game-breaking issue with Molly 2...


Maniacal_cackle

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8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If Molly uses parade route on a night terror, it suffers from concealing...

So pretty much the premier combo of the crew doesn't work (or it does, but on a minus flip...)

I get the feeling this probably wasn't noticed in playtesting, as it potentially just ruins the crew 😕

The night terrors can relent, so its just a case of flipping a 4 or higher on the negative flip isn't it? With the card discarding trigger built in, so you're not even hunting for suits, unless you really want the :tome trigger. 

That's still a fairly likely happening, although you either are relying on the odds, or have to spend resources earlier to get a straight flip, rather than the normal ability to be sure something is happening with just the cards in hand.

I guess it depends on how happy you are with "random" as I know I'm much happier with an unsuited leap on a card than you are for example. I'd still parade route a Night terror most of the time if I wanted the push and the discard to interact trigger, knowing I have no way to guarantee the action if I flip a 1-3 in those two cards. 

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Wanting a 4 is fine. But having to be able cheat that requiring a stone or a focus is just too much on an action that is hardly game breaking. 
 

It is also her minion that’s most likely going to want the action. So to incorporate that penalty seems overly harsh or an omission. 

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17 minutes ago, Metalhed said:

Wanting a 4 is fine. But having to be able cheat that requiring a stone or a focus is just too much on an action that is hardly game breaking. 
 

It is also her minion that’s most likely going to want the action. So to incorporate that penalty seems overly harsh or an omission. 

By the same Logic Zoraida should ignore concealing for her obey, since her keyword has a lot of models that actively want to be in concealing terrain, and its much harder for her to obey them if they are. (although she partially gets around the issue thanks to eyes in the night, its not a complete solution)

I don't know developers intent, but Concealing has been known as a double edged sword for a while ( I think the obey issue was discussed in the public beta testing of the edition), so whilst it is possible that it was missed, it is probably more likely that it was seen and thought balanced as is.

I certainly would not describe it as game breaking, at most its a slight annoyance when you realise it, and may cause alteration in your plans, but then I know I have a much higher tolerance of uncertainty than Maniacal cackle has.  The action on a night terror does 10" of movement, an interact whilst engaged, and potentially 3 damage to multiple targets. That's pretty good, and I don't mind that its not automatically going to happen, and that you might actually choose to target a different model  to lose 5" and 1 damage (but gain what ever fading they have) if you really want parts of it to go off. 

 

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Yeah, its frustrating, but I dont see it as gamebreaking.  It's a ranged action that affects enemies, so concealment is kind of part and partial to most actions.  Misaki2's obey ignores concealment but concealing terrain generation is a big piece of the keyword.  Molly on the other hand its, what? 1 model? 

I know it cuts down on how amazing a night terror can be, but I'm used to playing youko2, and gather intel is pretty similar and it's amazing (and there's no way to boost the distance higher than 5 inches or get the built in trigger).

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Have to agree with Adran that there's plenty of other situations where Concealing can be an annoyance (Infamous is another example). Now, I do agree that I usually try to ensure that Master AP actually do something so I wouldn't very often Parade Night Terrors without access to a positive modifier and I wouldn't be devastated if Parade was made to ignore Concealing but "game breaking" seems like a somewhat extreme description of the situation.

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I suppose ultimately it moves the cost of 2 Night Terrors from 10 stones to ~13 stones for stoning through concealment (or the Whisper can help), so game-breaking is extreme, yes xD More game-breaking if you're not prepared for it. (Although at a high level, losing a few stones is game-breaking).

I think the odds of failure are actually 42%... Which is ridiculously high for a master action, so I don't think you can just shrug and accept it, particularly one the crew is based on.

7 hours ago, Adran said:

By the same Logic Zoraida should ignore concealing for her obey, since her keyword has a lot of models that actively want to be in concealing terrain, and its much harder for her to obey them if they are. (although she partially gets around the issue thanks to eyes in the night, its not a complete solution)

I don't think the logic is the same because none of Zoraida's models that she wants to obey are in concealing 100% of the time from a self-generated aura.

And doesn't Zoraida actually ignore concealing if she uses eyes in the night to have a model obey 'itself'? So she's a stronger master with more tools to deal with concealing in this case, so I don't think the comparison makes sense at all.

Although I don't think parade route should ignore concealing, necessarily. Could ignore concealment for friendlies, or errata night terrors.

6 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Have to agree with Adran that there's plenty of other situations where Concealing can be an annoyance (Infamous is another example). Now, I do agree that I usually try to ensure that Master AP actually do something so I wouldn't very often Parade Night Terrors without access to a positive modifier and I wouldn't be devastated if Parade was made to ignore Concealing but "game breaking" seems like a somewhat extreme description of the situation.

Well, that's the issue - everyone who plays Molly 2 pretty much universally agrees that Night Terrors + Parade Route is the best thing about the crew. And then it turns out it doesn't work the way people think (which I suspect wasn't caught in playtesting).

That said, as above one can address it by just bringing a bigger cache and/or using the whisper. So it is more of a moderate annoyance since you can work around it.

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3 minutes ago, Metalhed said:

It’s a master AP. And to make it work with her best minion for the job she suddenly cannot cheat it without another AP or a stone. Or a compulsory upgrade. 
 

I think that is a bad design. 

Agreed!

Odds are we are stuck with it until at least March (if they errata Night Terrors, which doesn't seem likely), or until 2023 at the current errata rate (although they are trying to speed it up...)

So at this stage it may be more an issue of making sure people are aware of how the rules work on it before they play her. I have to confess that I was pretty lukewarm on her in a competitive sense to begin with, so I think she'll be a casual master for me for now.

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19 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think the odds of failure are actually 42%

More like 39% if you take in to account that you can flip the RJ... But it's still way to high. 

The cleanest erata would be to just ad "ignore concealing on friendly models"...

I do agree with Adran though, this is not game breaking (Old Spark had the same issue), just annoying.

If this goes unnoticed in playtesting it's kind of scary because it's kind of obvious.

 

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10 minutes ago, SEV said:

If this goes unnoticed in playtesting it's kind of scary because it's kind of obvious.

 

Well, keep in mind that a lot of masters will get less than 5-10 games played is my understanding... There's just not enough time to play that many games for the playtesters.

And this issue has gone unnoticed in the wild for a fair chunk of time (a lot more than 5 games in total). It is not at all intuitive, so most people seem to miss it. Heck, it took until my third game (with/against) to realise the issue.

Molly 1 has the same issue, but...

  1. You don't have to position the night terrors near the models you plan to attack.
  2. You don't really need to hire night terrors... (I've hired them like 2-3 times in the last hundred games I suspect).

So the rules for night terrors aren't generally super-engrained with people I think xD

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36 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I have to confess that I was pretty lukewarm on her in a competitive sense to begin with, so I think she'll be a casual master for me for now.

I was probably more positive than you, but it’s been fading. I’d been most disappointed that she just played in a space too close to Molly 1. I’d wanted something quite different. 
 

I’ll definitely give her a go, but my enthusiasm is quite dented. 

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3 hours ago, SEV said:

More like 39% if you take in to account that you can flip the RJ... But it's still way to high. 

The cleanest erata would be to just ad "ignore concealing on friendly models"...

I do agree with Adran though, this is not game breaking (Old Spark had the same issue), just annoying.

If this goes unnoticed in playtesting it's kind of scary because it's kind of obvious.

 

Yeah, I just did an array of it, and its a fraction over 39% failure (0.3906359189) from a fully blind deck. This gets influenced a bit if you know where some of those cards are. The BJ in hand/graveyard drops it more than 3%.

I have no idea where I got 29% from. Forgot to carry the two?

But yeah, it's not something I'd want to rely on for a Master AP.

Though I'd want any fix to be limited to this specific interaction, rather than a more general one, like Molly just ignoring all concealment, or attack actions against friendly models ignoring all concealment. Concealment is already great, I'd rather not remove most of the double-edged sword issues.

 

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Played another game today.

Another route to getting around the concealment is to use the positive reinforcement on Molly herself with Deja Vu trigger (push Night Terror 5 inches), then do walk/charge (possible 5 inches from deja vu trigger), then parade route the night terror using the focus.

It definitely is having an impact on my games, but it isn't AS bad as it first appears.

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