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Question regarding Suits associated with Wp and Df


Ebb
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Core Rules pg. 79

"If a character uses a Skill (such as Evade or Centering) to derive an Aspect then the Derived Aspect also includes any Suit associated with the Skill as this Suit is part of the Skill's value."

So when a Skill that is "used" to calculate a Derived Aspect has a Suit associated with it, that Suit also becomes associated with that Derived Aspect (adding a suit to the Notice Skill, also adds it the characters Initiative Derived Aspect). What I've always assumed is that because of the way that the Df and Wp Derived Aspects are calculated (with it being 2+ the highest of Skill or Aspect) the Derived Aspect only gains the Suit if the Skill has the higher value. I've always played it that way (which can feel a bit odd, since in some cases, a character wants to keep the value of their Aspect low, in order to get the most out the Derived Aspect that it is associated with) but is that the case?

For example: a character compares their Centering Skill of 3 that has a Crow Suit associated with it, to their Tenacity Aspect of 4, so they would "use" the higher value of 4 from their Tenacity Aspect for calculating their Wp of 6, but is their Centering Skill also "used" in that calculation (even if the value isn't used) and therefor adds the Crow Suit that is part of it's value?

Also, I've always assumed that in the case of a tie, the player gets to choose which value is "used" but the rules aren't clear on that, which muddies things even more.

I've never asked myself these questions until recently, I don't for sure know the answers, and the rules don't seem to specify, so now I'm asking all of you. 😃 Thank you. 

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I was thiking it probably wouldn't break anything and it's probably reasonable to let characters add the suit even if it's not the highest value. But then does that mean that skills triggers also get added to the defense duels?

If a character is set out to want a suit assocaited with their defense and they are adding it to a low skill they aren't as likely to get much value from the suit on the skill as they will the defense - so it seems like it would sort of balance out. But if you then give them additional triggers maybe it is too good??

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3 hours ago, diki said:

does that mean that skills triggers also get added to the defense duels?

No, Df and Wp Duels aren't Skill Duels, the section of the rules that I referenced even states that the Suit is specifically a part of the Skills value, but no other bonuses such as Positive Fate Modifiers are added.

So for example, a character can't declare Evade Skill Triggers on a Df Duel even if they used their full Evade Skill value to calculate their Df. I know I read a ruling to that effect somewhere, but I can't for the life of me remember where?

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  • 4 months later...

My interpretation (for what it's worth):

Defense = 2+ maximum (speed , evade_ranks)
Willpower = 2+ maximum (tenacity, centering_ranks)

In both cases the skill is 'used' even if the rank value isn't the one chosen by the maximum function.
Therefore a suit associated with evade or centering would be also associated with the derived aspect.

From a thematic point of view, there are many fun and flavourful Df or Wp triggers in the game that require multiple suits. Activating these triggers more or less requires you to have a suit associated with the derived aspect (yes I know there are ways to add additional suits to your duel total but they are almost all more difficult to use).

If you rule that you can only associate a suit if the skill's value is chosen for the derived aspect you effectively further limit access to these cool triggers. One of the core tenants of Through The Breach character customization is that you can achieve similar goals via different character choices. Letting more characters take advantage of triggers like these furthers that philosophy.

Also, triggers are fun! One ruling is more fun than the other. Go with the one that is more fun.

 

However, I agree that Df and Wp challenges are not skill challenges.
Not all "duels with fate" are "skill challenges" (though the 2ed CRB does not spell this out explicitly).
Therefore evade/centering triggers cannot be declared.

 

At least, this is how I would rule in a game I was Fate Mastering. Official clarification would of course beat out this reasoning!

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