Bayou Titles

[Math Mathonwy]

OK, so the titles have been out for a bit now and people have probably had enough to digest them at least in theory if not yet on the table top proper.

So how do you feel we fared? If we consider the sweet spot for a title to be one where it offers a viable option but the original would still see some play, how many did hit the mark? Additional points if the title makes some less used models shine alongside it.

Here are my rough thoughts backed with zero actual play experience with the new titles and just looking at the cards and reading the surrounding conversation.

• Somer2 is a complete dud. Somer1 was nerfed massively but is still somewhat playable in the right circumstances but the new version has a playstyle that doesn't mesh with his keyword and requires a ton of hoops for very little payback. To top it all off, he isn't even interesting design-wise. I really had high hopes for this one and Somer is definitely my biggest disappointment with the new titles. It's weird this got through playtesting.
• Zoraida is the polar opposite! Offers a different playstyle and is a powerful alternative without completely overshadowing the original version. One of my absolute favourite Masters in the game and I'm really happy how the new version looks. Also likely encourages different choices in crew building. The only minus is that you need a lot of Effigies to make full use of her and they are silly expensive to get a full collection of if using normal means.
• Mah seems solid. The difference in playstyle isn't necessarily gigantic but both versions seem valid and the concept is fun. Not much to say about this one but I feel it's a very good title.
• Brewmaster is a big change in playstyle and changes how the whole crew functions. Looks like a ton of fun on paper and I'm really looking forward to giving him a spin. Brewmaster has always been a bit weird for me in that in theory I love him but in practice is kinda dislike all the faffing around with putting giant stacks of Poison on your own models (that sort of thing is one of the aspects I enjoy the least in Malifaux). But yeah, a brialliant title! Might overshadow the original, though.
• Wong2 seems vastly better than Wong1. Not sure why I would ever pick the original. But this is a bit mitigated by the fact that I'm not sure why I would pick the first version anyway. The new one just does everything better and loses so very little.
• Zipp is a bit weird. The new one does stuff that the rest of the keyword doesn't really synergize with but he isn't bad. With all the new marker hate he seems like he might have a niche but the original is just very good at what he does so I dunno. Definitely nowhere near Somer-level but a wee bit disappointing still, I guess. I do feel that putting him onto the table should help solidify my opinion even more than with the other Masters.
• Ulix seems kinda crazy good. He does trade some support capabilities but the payoff is ultra-massive damage potential so it seems like a bit of a no-brainer. Still, Ulix the only Bayou Master that I don't own so my understanding of him is a bit shaky even though I have faced him some.
• Ophelia2 seems super fun. A bit like Brewie my only worry is that she might overshadown her original version, though admittedly the original does have some quite straightforward damage edges and is simpler to play. Ophelia2 also might make LaCroix Raiders worth taking so that's a definite bonus! Looking forward to getting Ophelia2 onto the table and seeing how it goes. I do like the design a lot.

So yeah, that's a fairly good haul, I feel. Somer is, to me, the only massive letdown and Zoraida is maybe my favourite implementation of the title concept.

What do you think? Where did I go wrong?

[Morgan Vening]

The only disagreements I have is that Mah, and Zipp, don't get additional style points for Rule of Cool.

Mah in a stompybot, and Zippago Montoya, are my first choice to put on the table, regardless of their power level or comparison to their OG version.

[Jesy Blue]

To think Zipp would be the weakest model out of the 3 in his box..... it's a sad day I tell you.

[Rufess]

I think we are doing well in the new book. Some excellent titles and a solid faction model that would show up frequently.

Brewmaster and Ophelia are the strongest title in Bayou regarding power level, to a degree that way too good. I think they would be played over the original versions most of the time in the current GG.

Ulix and Mah are the best designed title imo, both in the sculpt-wise and the rule-wise. Ulix does bring new direction to the keyword but not overshadowing the old himself. Mah otoh is not as exciting as her sculpt, but I still believe she and her machine will have equal table time as the original version.

Som'er is the Parker in brown. As the only marker-oriented master, I believe he will become our single best choice in certain pool.

Zipp is a tough one. I can see the difference and the options he brings to the table, but I so love the classic Zipp that I don't see myself playing the Dread Pirate. It is more the matter of preference than power level.

[Math Mathonwy]

2 hours ago, Rufess said:

Som'er is the Parker in brown. As the only marker-oriented master, I believe he will become our single best choice in certain pool.

The problem there is that his keyword isn't very marker-oriented at all. I feel that Zoraida2, for example, will blow Somer2 out of the water in marker-centered pools simply due to having some synergies and a better keyword.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

34 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

The problem there is that his keyword isn't very marker-oriented at all. I feel that Zoraida2, for example, will blow Somer2 out of the water in marker-centered pools simply due to having some synergies and a better keyword.

Agreed - I can see Som'er being good if your opponent plays wrong, and cheats every single flip. And, as a result, floods the area with markers. But to score anything you need to:

• Have the enemy in the correct position
• Have the enemy cheat a lot
• Have the enemy not remove them after they are dropped

All of this is just too random. You can use Throw Junk, with the trigger Draw out Secrets. But at that point, you might aswell just play Zoraida.

2 hours ago, Rufess said:

Zipp is a tough one. I can see the difference and the options he brings to the table, but I so love the classic Zipp that I don't see myself playing the Dread Pirate. It is more the matter of preference than power level.

My local meta has a bunch of flying, incorporeal and leap. So I can see myself using the new Zipp title a lot more. Havn't tried him yet though.

[Thatguy]

7 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

will blow Somer2 out of the water in marker-centered pools simply due to having some synergies and a better keyword.

I think this is a big part of my disappointment with Somer. Going from a summoner to a non-summoner means your really need to buff your crew. If you used to summon 20 points of models in a 50ss game you really need something that boosts you guys to preform better. 

Aside from no one working with markers, the crew as a whole didn't get any better. Work Together is a side grade at best.

On 10/12/2021 at 7:07 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Brewmaster is a big change in playstyle and changes how the whole crew functions... But yeah, a brialliant title! Might overshadow the original, though.

I've only run him once, but I liked him a lot. The biggest thing for me is that he doesn't implode the second he's confronted by a poison free beater. With his ability to do his main poison shtick at range, he's got less incentive to be in the thick of it. I often struggle to get OG Brewmaster to survive past run 3. This seems like significantly less of an issue. 

The crew in general has a lot of tricks that make it function way better than I would have expected on paper. 

[ShinChan]

I wanna have 5 games with each new title before jumping to conclusions, and so far the only one that I've played 5+ games in Brewie.

I love him! He supports so much better the crew. Being able to spend turn 1 just stacking poison like crazy on your models and still unpack is what makes Brewie2 great. Honestly, after the Sparks nerf, there is little reason to play Brewie1, specially if you wanna stay in keyword, since Tri-Chi are mediocre to bad models in general, with a couple of exceptions.

Brewie1 is more durable and hit way better than Brewie2, but the latest just helps his crew so much that I love him.

I hope to finish the "first five games" with Wong, Ophelia and Som'er by the end of the month. Ulix will come later. With Mah I have mixed feelings, I love the models but Mah1 is so much better than Mah2 that I don't see the point of Mah2 except of very, very specific matchups.

I still have to keep playing all my other factions, but I'm planning on elaborate more with Bayou, after all, they're my favorite  

[Thatguy]

2 hours ago, ShinChan said:

I hope to finish the "first five games" with Wong, Ophelia and Som'er by the end of the month. Ulix will come later. With Mah I have mixed feelings, I love the models but Mah1 is so much better than Mah2 that I don't see the point of Mah2 except of very, very specific matchups.

Let us know how your games go!

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, ShinChan said:

I wanna have 5 games with each new title before jumping to conclusions, and so far the only one that I've played 5+ games in Brewie.

Fantastic attitude  Wish everyone did this xD

[Morgan Vening]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fantastic attitude  Wish everyone did this xD

I'd love to. At my current rate of gameplay, that'd be sometime next century. Late in that century. Like late 2180's.

Still haven't played more than half my crews once, let alone five times, let alone alt Masters, and have played maybe three games in the last 18 months (virtual just wasn't for me).

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

I'd love to. At my current rate of gameplay, that'd be sometime next century. Late in that century. Like late 2180's.

Still haven't played more than half my crews once, let alone five times, let alone alt Masters, and have played maybe three games in the last 18 months (virtual just wasn't for me).

Ah, but the trick there is for us to accept that there is still stuff to learn/not to pass judgement too quickly.

I haven't met someone yet who has played every crew 5 times!

[GrumpyGrandpa]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Ah, but the trick there is for us to accept that there is still stuff to learn/not to pass judgement too quickly.

That is true. But I still think people should be allowed to discuss masters & keywords - Theorycrafting is a major part of the game.

Malifaux is, without a doubt, the greatest game in the world. But it still has errors, and I personally think a few of the titles seem untested. A healthy amount of sceptism combined with the knowledge that you might not know everything, is a good middle way. That, and testing your theory 😃

[ShinChan]

16 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fantastic attitude  Wish everyone did this xD

I still stay but my words that Reva2 is terrible, like way worse than Reva1 before the buff. And I'm saying it without taking into account the RAW interactions that allow to kill herself or the Lampad automatically dying. 

Also Parker2 is really bad.

I haven't played either and I am certain of that, just by having played 50+ games of Reva1 and 30+ of Parker1. 

 

Going back to the Bayou, Mah2 is definitely way worse than Mah1 (after 2 games) if we don't take into account the "Rule of Cool".

Som'er2 feels bad, but I haven't played him enough yet and neither played Som'er1 after he was crippled by the last errata, so jot jumping to conclusions yet, still trying to figure him out. 

Ulix2 it's more or less like Ulix1, with his niche good games and other really bad matchups depending on enemy keyword and specially the map.

Ophelia2 is great, similar power level of Ophelia1, but now she plays "supportish" instead of a mix of Rambo and Manji (from the Sword of the Immortal).

Wong2 is more reliable than Wong1, and so, strictly better, although Wong1 has some nice tricks.

Those are my impressions, but as I said again, I still need more games with most of them. For example my opinions on Ulix2 are based on me playing him once and watching 2 games. 

Zipp&Zoraida are masters I don't play (although I'm falling for their v2 version, I already play 22 masters, need to contain myself... XD) 

[Thatguy]

16 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fantastic attitude  Wish everyone did this xD

I disagree. Where would the internet be without loud uninformed opinions?

[Omenbringer]

On 10/12/2021 at 8:07 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Somer2 is a complete dud. Somer1 was nerfed massively but is still somewhat playable in the right circumstances but the new version has a playstyle that doesn't mesh with his keyword and requires a ton of hoops for very little payback. To top it all off, he isn't even interesting design-wise. I really had high hopes for this one and Somer is definitely my biggest disappointment with the new titles. It's weird this got through playtesting.

This is the issue...Som'er doesn't feel like Som'er at all. None of his keyword really functions with his crappy gimmicks. Even hiring out of Keyword doesn't really do anything for him (the only ones that really make any sense are Piglets, Wild Boar, Warpigs, and the Rooster Riders). As has been pointed out already, the gimmicks are really, really dependent on your opponents assistance in gaining any benefit from them. That is aside from "Work Together Would Ya!" ability which is a huge debuff to gain a small buff in return. Perhaps it might be more useful if his keyword had access to Reckless, but it doesn't (Funny that Bayou Gremlins couldn't have it because it was so "borken" but the much, much better Pistolero De Latigo can and they are still considered to suck so much that Perdita 2 has them as a summon with upgrade that makes them better to encourage folks to buy them and play them).

It says a lot about Bayou Gremlin's "value" in this edition that they are now a consolation summon for a Friendly Big Hat model removing a scheme marker. Of course you still have to discard a Control Card to pay for it and it will give your opponent a Pass Token. I really can't see a reason to give up so much to summon such a worthless, Insignificant model.

I have been playing Som'er since way back in 1st edition, he is now so different (has any other Master experienced this much change edition after edition without really being a consistent top 10 tournament contender in any edition?) that I don't even recognize him and can't bring myself to even play him anymore. Som'er 1 (this edition) sucks and now Som'er 2 makes that version look decent. Hopefully, 4th edition will bring him full circle, would love to see a return of the "Hog Boss" Som'er from 1st edition (and no I am not talking about returning his obviously exploitative infinite bull crap). Win or lose, that Som'er was a blast to run.

This is one I will be passing on, at least there is Ulix.

Apologies for the negative tone, but when you have played Som'er as long as I have (contributing several 1st edition tacticas for him, none of which revolved around the stupid Infinite loop exploits) and seen errata after errata (most of which I consider unnecessary for a crew that rarely broke top 10 in competitive play) is difficult to get excited about yet another crappy version to play.

[ShinChan]

8 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

This is the issue...Som'er doesn't feel like Som'er at all. None of his keyword really functions with his crappy gimmicks. Even hiring out of Keyword doesn't really do anything for him (the only ones that really make any sense are Piglets, Wild Boar, Warpigs, and the Rooster Riders). As has been pointed out already, the gimmicks are really, really dependent on your opponents assistance in gaining any benefit from them. That is aside from "Work Together Would Ya!" ability which is a huge debuff to gain a small buff in return. Perhaps it might be more useful if his keyword had access to Reckless, but it doesn't (Funny that Bayou Gremlins couldn't have it because it was so "borken" but the much, much better Pistolero De Latigo can and they are still considered to suck so much that Perdita 2 has them as a summon with upgrade that makes them better to encourage folks to buy them and play them).

It says a lot about Bayou Gremlin's "value" in this edition that they are now a consolation summon for a Friendly Big Hat model removing a scheme marker. Of course you still have to discard a Control Card to pay for it and it will give your opponent a Pass Token. I really can't see a reason to give up so much to summon such a worthless, Insignificant model.

I have been playing Som'er since way back in 1st edition, he is now so different (has any other Master experienced this much change edition after edition without really being a consistent top 10 tournament contender in any edition?) that I don't even recognize him and can't bring myself to even play him anymore. Som'er 1 (this edition) sucks and now Som'er 2 makes that version look decent. Hopefully, 4th edition will bring him full circle, would love to see a return of the "Hog Boss" Som'er from 1st edition (and no I am not talking about returning his obviously exploitative infinite bull crap). Win or lose, that Som'er was a blast to run.

This is one I will be passing on, at least there is Ulix.

Apologies for the negative tone, but when you have played Som'er as long as I have (contributing several 1st edition tacticas for him, none of which revolved around the stupid Infinite loop exploits) and seen errata after errata (most of which I consider unnecessary for a crew that rarely broke top 10 in competitive play) is difficult to get excited about yet another crappy version to play.

Som'er pre-nerf was winning quite consistently (he still had terrible matchups tho), but apart from that, sometimes things get nerfed because it's just not funny to play against them, becoming a NPE (negative play experience, like Nexus and Ivan pre-errata), and Som'er could definitely but that level of oppression. That they nerfed him into the ground and on top of that they made him lose a bunch of charisma? Definitely.

I agree that all the Bayou Gremlin engine from Som'er 2 looks like a lot of investment for such a ridiculous benefit (specially the discarding a card in a crew that is full or discarding mechanics and has a ridiculously low amount of card draw), however I'm planning on trying a full elite list for a couple of games more and see how it goes before putting Som'er back into the shelves.

PS: Don't even get me started on the Perdita bullshit-summoning mechanics and how efficient is the card cycling they have...

[Omenbringer]

Which major or even minor events was he winning consistently? From the reports I read on here he was not winning much if anything, though I concede that I may have missed them.

You do hit on the heart of my argument though. Som'er has been heavily errata'd every edition (often several times in an edition) and yet there are way more potent crews and models that are huge NPE's left untouched.

I have said, edition after edition, Som'er tends to look really potent until you figure out that he has an awful lot of foils that can take him down hard and quick. I consider myself a fairly competent Som'er player since way back in 1st edition and despite this, my local metas (and I have played in several around the US) have rarely struggled to counter his potency. He has a lot of bad match ups, particularly in an edition that punishes you for summoning, having large crews, small hand size, low wounds and/or clumping in small bubbles. Som'er suffers from Menoth Syndrome. In other words, when everything lines up and he has all the toys he can appear potent; however, getting everything to line up is difficult, while keeping it from happening isn't.

Keep in mind, I am not asking for broken, I am asking for him to function without having to jump through a myriad of often times counter productive hoops to get it to work. I can't think of another crew that has this.

Until such time, I will be playing Ulix (both versions) who is way more fun and versatile in play (and likely way more of a NPE than Som'er ever could hope to be).

 

[Thatguy]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

(he still had terrible matchups tho)

I think this was my big problem with the nerf. He had a lot of bad match ups. The Errata pushed him down in every match up though. He went from good to "not terrible" unless he faced a hard match up.

I really liked Defensive Bayou Two Card. It gave you a good way of shooting yourself in the foot and making things worse when you cheat to try not to be hit and increase give the opponent a positive damage flip. I think I would have preferred to lose Gremlin General to be honest. 

16 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

I will be playing Ulix (both versions) who is way more fun and versatile in play

This is big for me. I don't mind losing. But I want to at least have fun doing it. Otherwise why play Gremlins?

[Omenbringer]

Some of my favorite games were huge losses.

[HomelessOne]

21 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fantastic attitude  Wish everyone did this xD

Funny, I don't recall five test games before you starting doomsaying about Hoffman2! (I'm kidding, don't take this too seriously people)

[Math Mathonwy]

On 10/19/2021 at 7:10 PM, Omenbringer said:

I have been playing Som'er since way back in 1st edition, he is now so different (has any other Master experienced this much change edition after edition without really being a consistent top 10 tournament contender in any edition?) that I don't even recognize him and can't bring myself to even play him anymore. Som'er 1 (this edition) sucks and now Som'er 2 makes that version look decent. Hopefully, 4th edition will bring him full circle, would love to see a return of the "Hog Boss" Som'er from 1st edition (and no I am not talking about returning his obviously exploitative infinite bull crap). Win or lose, that Som'er was a blast to run.

I feel that Som'er1 feels quite "Som'ery" but the problem is his crew. The way it revolves around Lenny and G&O and has so many support pieces with very few options for actually performing and making proper use of that support that it's just a bit awkward to play. And the positioning is crazy delicate. Once the opponents focus their attention on the key pieces the crew kinda ceases to function. And now, after the nerfs, the crew is kinda middling even when everything is working.

(Compare to Dreamer who was way more oppressive than Som'er and got nerfed twice and is still super competitive.)

Back in M1e my favourite part of Som'er was the intricate interplay between the Skeeters, the Pigs, and the Gremlins. Especially the expendable parts of the equation, which, to me, epitomized the Som'er way. 

[Omenbringer]

8 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I feel that Som'er1 feels quite "Som'ery" but the problem is his crew. The way it revolves around Lenny and G&O and has so many support pieces with very few options for actually performing and making proper use of that support that it's just a bit awkward to play. And the positioning is crazy delicate. Once the opponents focus their attention on the key pieces the crew kinda ceases to function. And now, after the nerfs, the crew is kinda middling even when everything is working.

(Compare to Dreamer who was way more oppressive than Som'er and got nerfed twice and is still super competitive.)

Back in M1e my favourite part of Som'er was the intricate interplay between the Skeeters, the Pigs, and the Gremlins. Especially the expendable parts of the equation, which, to me, epitomized the Som'er way. 

I can't agree more.

Som'er is really the sideshow in his M3e crews (I am including his Titled version as well). And again you all are proving my point about the supposed potency of Som'er. When piloted well, against a neutral or favorable match-up, and with favorable flips he can appear to be really good and yet it requires careful positioning that limits the crew, support bubbles with fairly small radius which again limit maneuverability, and easily disrupted activation order.

Perhaps, had I never played 1st edition, the current Som'er might be less disappointing. I loved the lead from behind combined arms style of 1st ed Som'er and the ability to transition between different styles in game. He really didn't need the massive changes he has received edition after edition.

[Thatguy]

 miss "Rambo" Som'er. With Dumb/Thinking Luck he had a gun that rivaled Seamus and with squeal he was hard to pin down.  That and the ability to dump one/both players hands made him a terror.

I was really hoping to see that sort of playstyle, or something similar, come back instead of what we got. 

I honestly am perplexed on how we got what we did. Like the same round of play testing that saw new Somer give friendly models the ability to spend 2ap and a card to summon a 2ss insignificant model saw new Kirai's models force a test to get 4ss significant models. 

 

[Mr Oogie Boogie]

so does every model of som'er have different rules then? you cant use one som'er and just use the different rules?