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Reva and pyre markers


Khormy

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Hi,

I am fairly new to Reva, so a question came up during my last game regarding pyre markers. Both Reva, Vincent and most of the crew has an ability called funeral pyre.

Funeral Pyre says: After this model kills another model, it may drop a 50mm hazardous (burning+1) Pyre marker into base contact with the killed model.

Reva's totems, the corpse candles have the following abilities:

Demise (smoldering heart): After this model is killed, Drop a 50mm Hazardous (burning+1) Pyre marker into base contact with this model.

Walking dead: When declaring or resolving  friendly actions or abilities, this model may count as a Corpse Marker. If the Corpse Marker would be removed, this model is killed and does not drop a Corpse Marker.

So to my understanding, if Reva kills the corpse candle (or uses it as a corpse marker to summon a new corpse candle ) the model will drop one pyre marker because of funeral pyre and one because of the demise ability. Is this correct?

My second question is related to Vincent's ability, Cremation: Target a Corpse Marker. Drop a 50mm Hazardous(burning+1) Pyre marker into base contact with the target, then remove the target.

So in this case how many Pyre markers are droped if vincent uses cremation on a corpse candle? I would say 3. One because he replaces the corpse marker(corpse candle ) with a pyre marker. However if I look at the rest of the crews abilities I would say the demise of the corpse candle is and funeral pyre also drops a pyre marker each, because walking dead states the corpse candle counts as killed in this case. Is this correct?

 

 

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2 i believe, i think the line of semantics goes that cremation isnt killing the target, its effectively the candle killing itself cause the deaths on its card (so funeral pyre doesnt proc)

however my ability to remember resser stuff is not a shot short of shoddy so if anyone corrects it, probobly take their word quicker

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I am also of the opinion that the model that removes the marker does not count as killing the corpse candle. If the corpse marker is removed, then the model gets killed by the walking dead ability, so for rules purposes it is killed by the corpse candle. 

So if Reva uses a corpse candle to summon a corpse candle it only produces 1 pyre. If she kills one with feed on grief (for example), then 2 pyres would be created. 

So cremation would produce 2 pyres, one for Vincent creating one, and one for the corpse candles demise

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I'm not sold on the Corpse Candle's Walking Dead ability being the effect which kills the model. Walking Dead looks like a passive ability, so the effect is constant and is never generated. Killed specifies that the model which generated the effect which killed the model gets kill credit. Vincent's Cremation is the only Action/Ability generated during the removal of the Corpse Marker, so I think 3 Pyre Makers should be dropped. Is there anywhere that specifies more on passive abilities and whether or not they generate an effect? I use generate in the specific sense that simultaneous effects uses it, actively resolved.

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Basically no, nowhere will tell more on passive abilities that in the ability section. I follow the idea that if you are killed by damage you are killed by the action/ ability that causes the damage and if you are killed by a written effect that says you are killed then it's the ability with the word killed that did the killing. It certainly is true in 99.9% of the cases, and unclear either way in the remaining 0.1%. 

Passive abilities can generate effects, armour has a damage reduction effect. 

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6 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I'm not sold on the Corpse Candle's Walking Dead ability being the effect which kills the model. Walking Dead looks like a passive ability, so the effect is constant and is never generated. Killed specifies that the model which generated the effect which killed the model gets kill credit. Vincent's Cremation is the only Action/Ability generated during the removal of the Corpse Marker, so I think 3 Pyre Makers should be dropped. Is there anywhere that specifies more on passive abilities and whether or not they generate an effect? I use generate in the specific sense that simultaneous effects uses it, actively resolved.

You’re trying to make a distinction that the rules don’t.  There’s no such distinction made between “active” and “passive” as abilities far as responsibility for killing a model in the rules for killing models.

 

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9 hours ago, Adran said:

Basically no, nowhere will tell more on passive abilities that in the ability section. I follow the idea that if you are killed by damage you are killed by the action/ ability that causes the damage and if you are killed by a written effect that says you are killed then it's the ability with the word killed that did the killing. It certainly is true in 99.9% of the cases, and unclear either way in the remaining 0.1%. 

Passive abilities can generate effects, armour has a damage reduction effect. 

Passive Abilities are always in effect, and to me reads as though the effect is always "resolved" and not ever generated/resolved. To give an example, Armor does not have a "when resolving" effect to resolve in step 3 of damage timing, the reduction is just simply applied as per the first sentence. Active Abilities would be the ones that generate/resolve an effect imo.

I would be more accepting of Walking Dead being the effect that killed the model if it was in active voice, "If the Corpse Marker is removed, kill this model". The passive voice use makes it seem like the effect removing the marker is implied to be the "kill this model" effect.

I suppose maybe I'm hung up on "generated effect", but that just seems to be a prominent factor since it is explicitly stated.

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7 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I suppose maybe I'm hung up on "generated effect", but that just seems to be a prominent factor since it is explicitly stated.

Effects are always generated. The only difference between passive and active abilities in malifaux is if you need to make a choice to generate the effect or not.

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1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Effects are always generated. The only difference between passive and active abilities in malifaux is if you need to make a choice to generate the effect or not.

Is there somewhere in the rules that states something to that effect, or is it something assumed from previous editions? (Just a curiosity question)

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13 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Is there somewhere in the rules that states something to that effect, or is it something assumed from previous editions? (Just a curiosity question)

Effects are always referred to as being generated. It's the whole basis for how the timing structure works. If an effect isn't generated then we have no basis for how it resolves in the timing structure.

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1 minute ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Is there somewhere in the rules that states something to that effect, or is it something assumed from previous editions? (Just a curiosity question)

 

8 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Passive Abilities are always in effect

As stated on page 24 

Most Abilities are passive, meaning that they are always in effect. Some Abilities, however, are active and create certain effects in reaction to other events on the table. When an active Ability goes into effect, resolve the effect step by step in the order it is listed on the Ability.

I really dislike this as it doesn't really say anything. I still can't tell you what is passive and active in terms of an ability. What happens if an ability has some passive parts and some active parts?

But despite those problems:

This can certainly be read that the abilities effect is always in effect. It doesn't really matter if its passive or active, when it does something it is doing its effect. And it is the effect of Walking dead that killed the model, because nothing in Cremation would give the killed effect.  The being killed part of the effect only happens when the model would be removed after being used as a corpse marker. That sounds like an "active" ability. 

 

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2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Effects are always referred to as being generated. It's the whole basis for how the timing structure works. If an effect isn't generated then we have no basis for how it resolves in the timing structure.

Actions are always referred to as being generated, Ability effect generation is only mentioned in the Killed section. Considering that Active Abilities are the only Ability that mentions resolving the effect, which is falls in line with Actions, I think only Actions/Active Abilities generate actions. Take Insignificant, there is no resolution timing in the ability so nothing is generated in reaction to something and resolved.

 

2 hours ago, Adran said:

 

As stated on page 24 

Most Abilities are passive, meaning that they are always in effect. Some Abilities, however, are active and create certain effects in reaction to other events on the table. When an active Ability goes into effect, resolve the effect step by step in the order it is listed on the Ability.

I really dislike this as it doesn't really say anything. I still can't tell you what is passive and active in terms of an ability. What happens if an ability has some passive parts and some active parts?

But despite those problems:

This can certainly be read that the abilities effect is always in effect. It doesn't really matter if its passive or active, when it does something it is doing its effect. And it is the effect of Walking dead that killed the model, because nothing in Cremation would give the killed effect.  The being killed part of the effect only happens when the model would be removed after being used as a corpse marker. That sounds like an "active" ability. 

 

Active Abilities read as being resolved like an Action, by performing the entire text in the order presented. Walking Dead would make for a pretty convoluted Active Ability with multiple resolution timings. 

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37 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Actions are always referred to as being generated, Ability effect generation is only mentioned in the Killed section. Considering that Active Abilities are the only Ability that mentions resolving the effect, which is falls in line with Actions, I think only Actions/Active Abilities generate actions. Take Insignificant, there is no resolution timing in the ability so nothing is generated in reaction to something and resolved.

Insignificant doesn't have an effect that gets generated. However take something like black blood. It is inarguably a passive ability. If you damage multiple models with black blood at the same time, we would have no idea what order to resolve those generated effects in conjunction with the other unresolved damage effects because sequential effects only tells us the order for resolving generated effects.

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10 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Insignificant doesn't have an effect that gets generated. However take something like black blood. It is inarguably a passive ability. If you damage multiple models with black blood at the same time, we would have no idea what order to resolve those generated effects in conjunction with the other unresolved damage effects because sequential effects only tells us the order for resolving generated effects.

What? Black Blood: “After this model takes damage…”,  that looks like a timing structure and is in reaction to an event. This is a prime example of what an Active Ability is…

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13 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Active Abilities read as being resolved like an Action, by performing the entire text in the order presented. Walking Dead would make for a pretty convoluted Active Ability with multiple resolution timings. 

O.K. lets try another one

Through the Muck: This model is unaffected by Severe Terrain. After this model moves, if it came into base contact with any terrain, it gains Shielded +1.

Is this active or passive? I would say the first part is passive and the second part is active. So if we broke it into 2 abilities we would get the following

Ability 1 :This model is unaffected by Severe Terrain. -Passive ability

Ability 2: After this model moves, if it came into base contact with any terrain, it gains Shielded +1. - Active ability. 

But its 1 ability. 

 

You can get some pretty convoluted actions with multiple timing resolutions. So that doesn't really stop anything.

Lets take pine box as one that jumps to mind as having multiple timing resolutions. 

Target gains Distracted +1 and is Buried. When the target Activates, it must attempt a TN 13 Wp duel. If it passes, or if this model is killed or Buried, Unbury it in base contact with this model.

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2 hours ago, Adran said:

Lets take pine box as one that jumps to mind as having multiple timing resolutions. 

Target gains Distracted +1 and is Buried. When the target Activates, it must attempt a TN 13 Wp duel. If it passes, or if this model is killed or Buried, Unbury it in base contact with this model.

Even moreso when you take into account the Leeching Strength trigger. The timing on it is pretty clear if you've got a good grasp of the timing rules, but I would put a significant sum down, that this has been misplayed on at least the first couple times by at least half the people who have declared the trigger.

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12 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

What? Black Blood: “After this model takes damage…”,  that looks like a timing structure and is in reaction to an event. This is a prime example of what an Active Ability is…

And there is part of the problem. You're using a disinction in abilities that the rulebook doesn't make to try and say they work differently but there's not even a clear agreement on what a "passive" ability is and what an "active" ability is.


If you need to make up terms that aren't used by the rule book to try and create a distinction between two versions of something that's should be your first clue that you're probably not coming to the right conclusion.


EDIT: Just me being wrong and 3e actually making a distinction.


As for if Walking Dead is passive or active under the given definition, it's both. First part is passive, 2nd part is active because it creates an effect(kill this model) in reaction to another event(the marker being removed).

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