When do non-Trigger "After killing" effects resolve?

[NerdKaiser]

I'm wondering exactly when a killing-based Scheme checks to see if it's target has been killed. Does it use the Damage Timing rules?

When looking at the Death Beds scheme ("After killing an enemy model within both 2" of one or more friendly scheme markers and one or more of the secretly chosen markers...") and evaluating it for the Bandit crew, I wondered if the Fistful of Scrip ability on Parker, Mad Dog, and Sue ("After this model kills an enemy model, it may Drop a Scheme Marker into base contact with the killed model") allowed me to score Death Beds easily. If I'm allowed to drop Markers before revealing the scheme, then I can choose Corpse (or Scrap) Markers, and drop both relevant markers when killing an enemy to easily score the Reveal condition. This seemed too good to be true, but I wanted to check the rules to verify it couldn't work. 

But looking at the two relevant sections of the rulebook, I feel like the rules contradict themselves on this point. The Damage Timing rules on page 34 list a detailed order of operations. On this list, 6a deals with healing or replacing a killed model, then 6b tells you to "Resolve any After killing Triggers", but I assume this means only literal triggers of actions and not all effects (The rules for Triggers describe them as additional results of a duel which require a specific suit, which means the definition used in the rule book is very narrow.) Then step 6c is "Any effects that resolve after the model is killed (such as placing any Corpse or Scrap Markers) resolve at this point." This seems to imply that both the Fistful of Scrip ability to drop a scheme marker, and the Reveal effect of the scheme, both occur in this step. If that's true, the rules for simultaneous effects mean the Active Player (in this case, the Bandit player) can choose the order of resolving their effects. Meaning I can drop the scheme marker from Fistful of Scrip, then drop a Corpse marker, and then reveal Death Beds, scoring the point.

However the rules for Killed, on page 25, state (emphasis mine): "When a model is killed, any Healing effects or effects that result in the killed model being Replaced happen first, followed by any other effects that occur when, if, or after the model is killed. Then, the killed model Drops any Markers as a result of being killed and is removed from the game (including its Stat Card and Attached Upgrades). For more information on timing, see page 34."

This list begins and ends the same as step 6 of the damage timing, but it gets fuzzy in the middle. It seems to imply that all "After killing" effects happen in step 6b of Damage Timing, not just Triggers. This would mean that Death Beds checks its Reveal condition in step 6b, and Fistful of Scrip (as well as dropping a Corpse Marker) occur afterwards in step 6c, and I don't score the point. Regardless of the specifics of this question, I feel like this section is not an accurate summary of the Damaging Timing rules.

Is there something I'm missing that defines when a killing-based Scheme resolves? If not I assume it's part of "Any effects" in step 6c. And, separately, is there a discrepancy between the Killed rules on page 25 and the Damage Timing on page 34, or am I misreading it? I appreciate any help with resolving this!

 

 

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

I think no, because the sheme of "A Fistful of Scrip" appears after you killed the model and therewith it isn't there in the moment you do the kill.

 

look. P.34/ 6c

 

There it is.

[NerdKaiser]

I also thought it would not work, until I read the rules. I mentioned p34 step 6c several times. I think it actually works in favor of dropping markers at the same time as resolving the Death Beds scheme, since they are both "After Killing" effects (and are not triggers that would resolve in 6b). If both occur during 6c, that means the active player can resolve them in whichever order they want, and score Death Beds immediately by dropping a Corpse and Scheme Marker before resolving Death Beds (and before the model is removed from the table in 6d). 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time a scheme wasn't actually compatible with the rules... But I don't think this quite works the way you're hoping.

Death Beds:

Quote

After killing an enemy model within 2" of both one or more friendly scheme markers and one or more of the secretly chosen markers...

Simultaneous effects refers to generated effects. At the time of step 6c of damage timing, you do not meet the criteria (killing an enemy with 2" of both markers).

Now, granted, measurement timing is ambiguous... But I think most things in the game work if you measure conditional effects upon generation. So I think the most reasonable order is:

• Check what to generate at step 6c.
  • Check for effects like Fistful of Scrip - generate a scheme marker.
  • Check for Death Beds - did you meet the criteria? If so, generate the effect.
• Take all generated effects and order them.
• Resolve one at a time.

So I don't think you generate Death Beds effect in the first place to score it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

To give a similar example... If you have two things...

• At the start of a model's activation, push 3 inches.
• At the start of a model's activation, if it is within 3 inches of a scheme marker, gain focus +1.

If you have a situation like this, you cannot push to within 3" of a scheme marker and then claim you get the start of activation focus. You check for all the effects, generate them, then resolve them.

It'd be a bit different if it said "after killing you may remove a scheme marker within 2", but since it is a conditional statement I don't think it works.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Dead beds and Fistful of Scrip are both effects that occur when a model is killed, and resolve at the same time in Damage Timing and Killed sections. A killed model drops the marker(s) in the the section you bolded, so this only refers to the markers it drops based on its characteristics. 

Like Maniacal stated, Death Beds effect will not be generated if there is not a scheme marker in range prior to step 6c. If there was a scheme marker in range already, then yes you would resolve both Fistful of Scrip and Death Beds and could choose the order. You could remove Fistful of Scrips marker instead of the initial scheme marker, but that is the only interaction it will have with the generation/resolution of Death Beds effect.

[NerdKaiser]

Edit: I misunderstood your point, and responded to an argument you weren't making.

I appreciate your answers. I'm not really sure about the idea that effects are generated at the beginning of a step, and then resolved at the end of the step (as opposed to being generated and resolved one at a time). I can see how that is implied on pg 34 in the Sequential Effects section. It does use the language of generated and resolved, but doesn't spell out what those mean or when they happen.

But I'll accept that as the best answer and the rules as intended. Thanks for your help. 

 

What about the more general question of whether the Damage Timing on pg 34 disagrees with the rules for Killing on pg 25? The rules in the Killed section seem to imply that the order of effects after killing is a) Heal/Replace b) all effects that generate after killing that don't place markers c) all effects that place markers d) remove the model

Damage Timing gives the order as a) Heal/Replace b) all Triggers (and only Triggers) that occur after killing c) all other effects, including marker placement d) remove the model. 

Why the discrepancy between when non-Trigger after-killing effects that don't place markers resolve? Are they in substep b or c? If the answer is just inaccurate wording, then I assume the Damage Timing table takes precedence. 

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 hour ago, NerdKaiser said:

bout the more general question of whether the Damage Timing on pg 34 disagrees with the rules for Killing on pg 25? The rules in the Killed section seem to imply that the order of effects after killing is a) Heal/Replace b) all effects that generate after killing that don't place markers c) all effects that place markers d) remove the model

Damage Timing gives the order as a) Heal/Replace b) all Triggers (and only Triggers) that occur after killing c) all other effects, including marker placement d) remove the model. 

 

Your c) for Killed is incorrect. b) covers all effects after a model is killed, including abilities which have an effect that causes a marker to be dropped. The part of Killed you are naming c) only covers the killed model dropping markers as it relates to Markers and Killed Models on the same page. By the time you get to c) in the Killed section, all Trigger/Ability effects that occur from a model being killed will have resolved.

Damage Timing goes into greater detail saying that all Trigger effects from after killing resolve prior to non-Trigger effects. Yes 6c does lump in Ability after killing effects with the killed model dropping a marker, but the killed model dropping a marker based on the stat card or upgrade characteristics will resolve after all other effects because the Killed section specifies it.

In short, Damage Timing specifics Triggers before other after "killing/killed" effects, and Killed specifies the killed model drops its death marker after all other "after killing/killed effects". So you have a) heal/replace b) all triggers c1) all other effects c2) killed model's death marker d) remove model. I think they just need to remove Step 6 from damage timing, specify Killed is the last effect resolved in Step 5, and then wholly break down Killed in bullet format in the Killed section to improve clarity.

[NerdKaiser]

I think you are correct. What I was incorrectly reading was in the Killed section, it says "Then, the killed model Drops any Markers as a result of being killed." So an effect by another model that drops a Marker is not included in that statement. This does create a functional step 6c2 as you described where the model dropping it's own death markers is forced to occur after all other effects, although technically within the same step. That should certainly be rewritten but at least it's not an outright contradiction. Thanks for clarifying.