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Does aura affect a model that generates it if the model itself is buried?


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Let's say we have a game with Titania vs. Tara. Titania has her "Cruel Disappointment" which changes any severe damage she would suffer to moderate instead. At some point in the game Tara buries Titania and attacks her. As the result of the attack Titania has to suffer severe damage. Would "Cruel Disappointment" still work and the damage would be changed to moderate?

I've spent some time reading the rules and I couldn't find anything that prevents this. To me, aura effect just specifies which area is affected. Taking into account the fact that abilities work constantly, aura affects its creator and a model always has LoS to itself, I would say that the aura should still work.

The only thing that mentions abilities in buried state says that a model can't be targeted by an ability, which aura does not require. It's more about the fact that an aura cannot affect anything that is still on the table.

What do you think?

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15 minutes ago, Adran said:

Because it is possible for an ability to target a model. I can't think of an example at the moment, but it is possible for it to happen. 

Actually, I might be wrong here. Target only matters in step 3 of the resolving action process, so I can't see how an ability could target. 

But that doesn't change my view that choosing a model or affecting a model are not the same as targeting a model, and you need the word Target for it to target. 

(So you can hit a terrifying model with shockwaves without having to take a terrifying test because it was not the target)

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On 9/24/2021 at 1:24 PM, Adran said:

No they aren't. This ability doesn't target a model. It does affect Tara, but it doesn't target Tara. 

Likewise if an ability asks you to choose a model (Such as Celebrity on Cassandra/showgirl) that model has not targeted the the chosen model. 

First of all I want to say that I want no bad Blood. Nor do I sit here and ask myself which possibilities I have to stress any of the very helpfull and dedicated People in this this Forum.

Therefore don´t get my constanly replies on this topic, as some hostile action.

Also keep in mind that I need to use the dictionary in many cases. So there will be moments where I misunderstand things.

And I'm also awere of the Fact that you are obviously more experienced, than I am. Much more.

But none the less can also a very good teacher misunderstand something because nobody is perfect. And I think thats the case here.

 

I think the phrase on P. 33 is not, like Maniacle_cackle stated, "pointless or redundant".

I think its written there with reason.

But I have say that this rule is unclear described. In my Opinion.

 

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1. Use of target/ special restriction terms

Who gets affected? Its not only the Modell with the Ability. And what/ whom do the ability affect?

If you look at P.23/ Step3: Targeting

It says: "In addition to costs, special restrictions are also written in italics and restrict the Action in some way, such as limiting the Action to targeting Friendly models only, or non-Construct models only."

 

a) YES! I know it says "written in italics and restrict the Action" so It don't apply here because we are talking about Abilities, not Actions.

      But if you look at this Step (Step3: Targeting) and at the Special Restriction Box at P.23, you will see that there are the same Terms like the ability descriptions.

      Why is that? Because an Ability needs a Target which is then affected by the  effect of this Ability.

 

b) You stated somewhere above: "No they aren't. This ability doesn't target a model. It does affect Tara, but it doesn't target Tara."

     (sorry I'm not sure how to quote in the middle of a reply)

     I say the effect which is triggerd, when the Special restrictions are fulfilled is the thing which affects the Target.

     In your example it would be Tara.

c) You also wrote somewhere above: "Just to say that you are not "targeted" by an aura. Target is a game term, and if an action or an ability does not say that it targets a model, then the models it effects are not targeted by that action/ability.  (Can matter for things like Terrifying which will only happen if you target that model. ) "

     If the underlined part is true, then a normal attack action couldn't be taken. I mean none of them specify a Target. I mean it's neccesary to have one, but there is

     no target described.

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2. Term: Abilities (the what)

    !!! Entries regarding the Term ablity are only on Page 4/5/24 !!!

a) On P.24/ Abilities is written: "Models have a range of Abilities that affect how they function on the table."

    In my opinion these Sentence does not say Models are affected by an ability. But rather it says the the way how a Modell works/function is affected.

b) P.4/ Models/ 3rd paragraph says: "Each model also has Abilities, which grant the character unique ways to deal with situations. This can include immunities,

    special ways to defend or move, or anything that isn’t already described by the model’s statistics."

 

    This sentence predicates pretty much the same like the sentence above (a)). At least in my opinion.

    Models have abilities which alteres the way they work by giving them "...immunities, special ways to defend or move..." and other things.

 

c) P.4/ Stat Cards/ nr.7 Abilities says: "Models have Abilities that change how they interact with the rules, such as making the model difficult to damage or

    changing how it moves. A model’s Abilities are always considered to be active during an Encounter unless otherwise indicated in their description."

    The underlined part predicates once again, the same like a) and b) allready do.

   Lets keep the second Part in Mind for later. Look under 3. Abilities (when)

 

d) P.33/ "Once per" effect says: "A model can only take an Action or Ability that is once per Activation once during an Activation. A model can only take an Action

     or Ability that is once per Turn once on any given Turn."

     So once again abilities are in most/ some cases an aktiv thing. You have tu take/use that Ability.

 

     Further more it says in the last paragraph: "Some of these effects have additional modifiers, such as being limited to targeting a specific model once per

      Activation. These work the same way, with the specific limitations mentioned."

     One could argue that this only applys to "once per" effects. But why do a whole lot of other Abilities have this restriction too?

 

e) P.5/ green box bottom right says: "The big things to remember: Abilities ... are things that your characters are always doing, and Actions ... are things that they

    do when it’s their time to shine (aka their Activation)."

 

Here it says that caracters are doing Abilities. so it is somehow an action. I don't mean the game term I mean its something that the Model is actually doing.

Not something which affects the Model.

 

This is everything which I could found regarding the definition of the term abilities, as I looked it up.

Like I wrote at the start of this post, nobody is perfect. So let me know if I missed something.

If I don't missed something, than your Statement: "This ability doesn't target a model. It does affect Tara, but it doesn't target Tara." is false.

Because an ability does't affect a model but rather the effect which is caused by the Ability when the Special restriction are fullfilled...

 

AS LONG... they are activ (look up 3.)

 

My Definition of Ability:   

1. An Ability is (Surprise) an ability which  can/ must(?) be taken if they are activ.

2.Which grants effects that alter the gameplay of this model.

2a) This can be passive, so that this ability is always concidered as aktiv.

2b) Or it can be activ, which means it can/needs (?) to be taken when the restrictions for this ability are fullfilled.

 

 

3. Abilities (the when)

a) P.24/ Abilities/ 2nd paragraph says: "Most Abilities are passive, meaning that they are always in effect. Some Abilities, however, are active and create

     certain effects in reaction to other events on the table. When an active Ability goes into effect, resolve the effect step by step in the order it is listed on the Ability."

 

a1) Passive "Most Abilities are passive, meaning that they are always in effect..."

     E.g. Hard to wound, Ruthless, Armor, Beyond Time (Tara), Flameborn (Banasuva), Eyes on the Prize (Lord Cooper), gunfighter (Sue)

     All this abilities have one thing in common. They have no special restriction terms like: when model do this, at the start of the activation, etc.

     Thats why these Abilities are always in effect aka. passive.

 

a2) Activ "Some Abilities, however, are active and create certain effects in reaction to other events on the table"

       E.g. Demise/ elemental breakdown (Banasuva), Entropy (Ashen Core), The most dangerous Game (Lord Cooper) AND Cruel Disappointment (Titania)

       And this ability was the starting point.

       All this abilities have another thing in common. They need to be taken if the special restriction are fullfilled.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   

Round Up:

 

The Ability in question is: Cruel Disappointment (Titania) which reads as follow:

"When a friendly model within:aura3 would suffer severe damage, it suffers Moderate damage instead. "

Do this ability work if Titania is buried and loose due to an Attack all its Healtpoints.

 

I say no because:

1. its an aktiv Ability and has to be taken(Look up 3.)

2. Buried Models can't be targeted by abilities which do not specifically target buried models. (P.33/ Bury)

3.It has aditional modifiers/ restrictions which dictates a target (The underlined parts of the rule are the restrictions, the Target is written in Fat letters )

4. The Aura is only the effect of this ability. So it doesnt matter what's written on P. 30/ Area effects because the abililty which grants this aura can't be taken.

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 I think I have a lot of real good arguments on my side. But like I said: "Nobody's perfect."

I'm typing since aproximatly 5h. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so. But if yes, i could train my english skills a bit.👍

 

And since I typed ability so often, I will do it once more and tell you that I have an ability, which alters my letters and therewith possibly the grammar.

Is reads as follow: "If you type sOme Text oN The Computer, You may may press Often The ShifT Botton. You may read the Whole Text again to correct it, but you dont have to."

This is the reason for any wrong capital letters.

 

cheers

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4 hours ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

4. The Aura is only the effect of this ability. So it doesnt matter what's written on P. 30/ Area effects because the abililty which grants this aura can't be taken.

Area Effects is probably the most important rule to not allow the ability in question , as Area Effects states that they are an area of the table. So models not on the table can’t benefit from or be affected by Area effects, which an Aura is.

Edited by PiersonsMuppeteer
Focus the quote to the relevant portion
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Hi. I'd like to say I am not angry, and I'm sorry if my short replies have implied I am.  I sometimes think I have two types of answer, ones with too much information and one's with too little. 

I'm generally very happy to answer questions here, and if I don't want to I just won't answer. So please feel free to ask away. If I think we're getting too off topic I sometimes take it to private message but I want people to understand the rules and so am happy to discuss. I don't know all the rules And I agree I can be wrong. I'm also impressed by multi lingual people who play in a language that isn't their own.

I am now on my phone so I'm less likely to be able to quote, so sorry for that. There is a lot in your post and I haven't taken it all in yet, so I may answer more later.

The first thing I wanted to answer was

1 hour ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

 

c) You also wrote somewhere above: "Just to say that you are not "targeted" by an aura. Target is a game term, and if an action or an ability does not say that it targets a model, then the models it effects are not targeted by that action/ability.  (Can matter for things like Terrifying which will only happen if you target that model. ) "

     If the underlined part is true, then a normal attack action couldn't be taken. I mean none of them specify a Target. I mean it's neccesary to have one, but there is

     no target described.

 

 Every attack action ( except shockwaves) tells you it has a target. They often say things like target takes 1/2/4 damage or push target 2'. Both are mentioning they have a target. 

Attacks target 1 model as a default, but they all tell you what they do to the target. They may do things to other models, but those other models aren't the target.

Tactical actions only target if they refer to a target in the action. 

That might not be related to what you are saying, but target is a game term and if the action doesn't need a target then it doesn't target. 

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17 hours ago, Adran said:

1. ) ... Every attack action ( except shockwaves) tells you it has a target. They often say things like target takes 1/2/4 damage or push target 2'. Both are mentioning they have a target. 

Attacks target 1 model as a default, but they all tell you what they do to the target. They may do things to other models, but those other models aren't the target.

Tactical actions only target if they refer to a target in the action. ...

2. ) ....but target is a game term and if the action doesn't need a target then it doesn't target. 

1. ) No. Every Attack Action tells you It has to have a Target.

P.23/ step 3: Targeting/ Parapraph 2 says: "If the Action requires a target, the target must be declared at this step."

Attack actions are Actions that require a Target. And you have to specify the target.

If I take an Attack Action then I name the Target. Lets say the Target is Tara.

So I could also write "Tara suffers 2/3/4 damage" on the Card of my Attacking model instead of "Target suffers 2/3/4 damage"

But since you can take Attack Actions agains any model there is only written "Target"

Lets say this Attack Action could hit all enemy models with in range. (Obviously this would be totaly insane and OP, but it would possible)

Then it would have something written there like "Targets suffers 2/3/4 damage" and therewith I could write "Enemy Models suffers 2/3/4 damage" if  I would choose to attack the enemy.

 

2.) Where is this Term defined?

I get you right you refer to  P.23/ step 3: Targeting/ Parapraph 2.

If thats the case I have to mention that this is just a part of the explaintion how Actions are resolved, at least in my opinion.

Because there are certain Actions wich can be used on different targets and therefor needs the Target to be specified.

Thats the reason why this step exists in this part of the manual.

If every action would have a clear target, this step would be unnecessary.

 

If you still not convinced than look at

P.33/ "once per" effects

 

It says in paragraph 1 : "A model can only take an Action or Ability"

Like an action I have to take abilities (If they are not passive).

 

 

It says furthermore in paragraph 3: "...so a given model could... take multiple (once per Activation) effects so long as they were on different Actions or Abilities. ..."

So thats my point, an Action or Ability has an effect which comes into effect when the action or ability is taken.

To take an action or  active ability one must fullfill the special limitation requirments.

You argue it says "once per Activation" and therewith isn't relevant to our discussion. But I think this is the part of the manual where it is unclear.

 

furthermore says the last paragraph: "Some of these effects have additional modifiers, such as being limited to targeting a specific model..."

It says there are modifiers which limits a effect his available targets.

But It has a target.

 

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43 minutes ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

2.) Where is this Term defined?

I get you right you refer to  P.23/ step 3: Targeting/ Parapraph 2.

If thats the case I have to mention that this is just a part of the explaintion how Actions are resolved, at least in my opinion.

Because there are certain Actions wich can be used on different targets and therefor needs the Target to be specified.

Thats the reason why this step exists in this part of the manual.

If every action would have a clear target, this step would be unnecessary.

 

To be fair, the game term target is never explicitly defined. However, to target is when a player declares which model will be affected by the effects of an Action. The game term does have meaning as well, Terrifying uses the moment of being targeted to trigger the effect.

Attack Actions also do not require a target, it is only often required. Many attack Actions simply drop a shockwave, like Shadow Emissary’s Lightning Strike, and never target another model. A target is only required when an Action specifies that an effect will affect a target (many Attack & Tactical Actions).

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5 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

To be fair, the game term target is never explicitly defined. However, to target is when a player declares which model will be affected by the effects of an Action. The game term does have meaning as well, Terrifying uses the moment of being targeted to trigger the effect.

Attack Actions also do not require a target, it is only often required. Many attack Actions simply drop a shockwave, like Shadow Emissary’s Lightning Strike, and never target another model. A target is only required when an Action specifies that an effect will affect a target (many Attack & Tactical Actions).

Ok. The main qestion is: Do abilities have Targets?

 

Adran says no. Or to be fair he says the anwser might be wrong. (Thats one point where my english lacks training, but I think I got this right.)

On 9/24/2021 at 2:09 PM, Adran said:

Actually, I might be wrong here. Target only matters in step 3 of the resolving action process, so I can't see how an ability could target. 

But that doesn't change my view that choosing a model or affecting a model are not the same as targeting a model, and you need the word Target for it to target. 

(So you can hit a terrifying model with shockwaves without having to take a terrifying test because it was not the target)

But I say: I think they have targets.

Mainly because of two entrys in the manual.

Both on P.33

1. Bury/ Paragraph 2: "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities..."

2. "once per" Effects/ Parapraph 4: "Some of these effects have additional modifiers, such as being limited to targeting a specific model..."

 

The first indicates that there are abilties which targets something.

And the second as well, because I cant be limited in targeting, when there is no targeting.

 

In my opinion is the phrase "this model" or specific name a declaration of a Target.

While phrases like: a friendly model, a enemy model are unspecified target declarations.

Even if activ abilities goes automatically in effect as soon as the requirements are fullfilled, does they have a Target, which defines on what the effect appeals.

 

So? What do you think?

Do abilities have targets?

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3 hours ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

Ok. The main qestion is: Do abilities have Targets?

 

Adran says no. Or to be fair he says the anwser might be wrong. (Thats one point where my english lacks training, but I think I got this right.)

But I say: I think they have targets.

Mainly because of two entrys in the manual.

Both on P.33

1. Bury/ Paragraph 2: "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities..."

2. "once per" Effects/ Parapraph 4: "Some of these effects have additional modifiers, such as being limited to targeting a specific model..."

 

The first indicates that there are abilties which targets something.

And the second as well, because I cant be limited in targeting, when there is no targeting.

 

In my opinion is the phrase "this model" or specific name a declaration of a Target.

While phrases like: a friendly model, a enemy model are unspecified target declarations.

Even if activ abilities goes automatically in effect as soon as the requirements are fullfilled, does they have a Target, which defines on what the effect appeals.

 

So? What do you think?

Do abilities have targets?

No, specifying a model and targeting a model are different things. Do you target a model when you choose it? No, choosing is part of paying costs for an Action or a Trigger, or part on an Ability’s effect. Adran specified he was wrong in agreeing that abilities have targets, and was clarifying that only Actions use the targeting step where a target is declared.

Abilities having a target is moot for Auras anyway, they do not target. A player never declares a model for the Aura to affect, the model is just affected if in range. 

Now I think that an Ability could target something, but it would need to have “target” in the effect text. I could be wrong, but I do not think a single Ability contains the word “target”. So no current Ability targets, but the rules have the design space to allow a future Ability to target.

The Once Per paragraph is defining once per turn and once per activation, it is not defining that abilities target. The paragraph you quote is specifically mentioning special restrictions (p. 23), which do not spell out that something can target. Special restrictions only define that the Action/Trigger/Ability is limited in what it targets (if it targets) or affects.

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6 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

No, specifying a model and targeting a model are different things. Do you target a model when you choose it? No, choosing is part of paying costs for an Action or a Trigger, or part on an Ability’s effect. Adran specified he was wrong in agreeing that abilities have targets, and was clarifying that only Actions use the targeting step where a target is declared.

Abilities having a target is moot for Auras anyway, they do not target. A player never declares a model for the Aura to affect, the model is just affected if in range. 

Now I think that an Ability could target something, but it would need to have “target” in the effect text. I could be wrong, but I do not think a single Ability contains the word “target”. So no current Ability targets, but the rules have the design space to allow a future Ability to target.

The Once Per paragraph is defining once per turn and once per activation, it is not defining that abilities target. The paragraph you quote is specifically mentioning special restrictions (p. 23), which do not spell out that something can target. Special restrictions only define that the Action/Trigger/Ability is limited in what it targets (if it targets) or affects.

OK. I have to think about this.

Right now I'm not realy convinced, that you are right.

But I'm also not convinced anymore, that I'm right.

Actually I'm confused because one of my post`s has been marked as the answer. Who can do this? Does this mean my perspective is correct?

 

 

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12 hours ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

OK. I have to think about this.

Right now I'm not realy convinced, that you are right.

But I'm also not convinced anymore, that I'm right.

Actually I'm confused because one of my post`s has been marked as the answer. Who can do this? Does this mean my perspective is correct?

 

 

Sorry that might have been me on my phone, it sometimes clicks things that I don't notice...

Wyrd does not give an official answer on this forum, so this forum shouldn't use that feature ( at least as far as I know, but I don't really understand the forum software) or have it mean anything formal. 

Certainly the once per argument you put is not correct, because there are once per effects that clearly don't target ( such as charge, which this edition doesn't target).

But I will admit that part of my certainty that actions that target all have the word target in someplace in their wording is in part due to the rules over th e full history of malifaux, and at times the new edition rules sort of following on from previous editions when things don't change. 

Choosing a model isn't the same as " targeting" and being effected also doesn't make you a target. 

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On 9/25/2021 at 3:34 PM, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

 

Lets say this Attack Action could hit all enemy models with in range. (Obviously this would be totaly insane and OP, but it would possible)

Then it would have something written there like "Targets suffers 2/3/4 damage" and therewith I could write "Enemy Models suffers 2/3/4 damage" if  I would choose to attack the enemy.

This exists in various forms. But its a tactical action, because it doesn't have a target. Destructive performance on all the Crossroads 7 models is the first example I came across to illustrate the point, but Arcane burst on the Arcane emissary also works as a tactical action that affects all enemy models in range. It doesn't target any of the models, but they are all affected. 

 

On 9/25/2021 at 3:34 PM, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

If you still not convinced than look at

P.33/ "once per" effects

It says in paragraph 1 : "A model can only take an Action or Ability"

Like an action I have to take abilities (If they are not passive).

It says furthermore in paragraph 3: "...so a given model could... take multiple (once per Activation) effects so long as they were on different Actions or Abilities. ..."

So thats my point, an Action or Ability has an effect which comes into effect when the action or ability is taken.

To take an action or  active ability one must fullfill the special limitation requirments.

You argue it says "once per Activation" and therewith isn't relevant to our discussion. But I think this is the part of the manual where it is unclear.

furthermore says the last paragraph: "Some of these effects have additional modifiers, such as being limited to targeting a specific model..."

It says there are modifiers which limits a effect his available targets.

But It has a target.

 

This paragraph talks about Actions and Abilities,  just because an example is given of an additional modify is given, it doesn't automatically apply to all instances. It says that there might be a limit to the targeting, which is not the same as saying everything that this paragraph talks about automatically has to have a target.

That's Why I don't think its relevant to the discussion. 

Flurry is an ability that is once per activation, and does not require you to target, it just allows you to take the just resolved action again. 

 

On 9/24/2021 at 5:13 PM, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

 

e) P.5/ green box bottom right says: "The big things to remember: Abilities ... are things that your characters are always doing, and Actions ... are things that they

    do when it’s their time to shine (aka their Activation)."

 

Here it says that caracters are doing Abilities. so it is somehow an action. I don't mean the game term I mean its something that the Model is actually doing.

Not something which affects the Model.

 

This is more a case of "flavour text". I wouldn't like to try and use it to argue any points of the rules. Lets look at a few abilities. 

Armour is something my character is wearing. I wouldn't say wearing armour is doing something.

Incorporeal is more the physical state of the model, its not really "doing" anything

Hard to wound is just more of a case that my model is likely to take less significant damage for some reason (that probably varies from model to model. I think undead thematically have it because they are powered by magic so a blow that might have severed an artery in a living human doesn't have the same effect on an undead body because it isn't powered by blood pumping around)

None of them are really the model doing any form of action, its just the "always on" state for them. 

 

 

Lets look at breath of fire as an action

Breath of Fire 6" 5 Df -
Target suffers 2/3:blast/4:blast:blast damage. Models damaged by this Action gain Burning +1.

It is an attack action, so we know it has to have a target. (I will also say that look it uses the word target, which is my test for if an action has a target or not) The Target suffers 2/3/4 damage, There is also the:blast blast effect that may damage other models. These models are NOT targets of the attack, even though they might suffer effects from the attack. And all models damaged will gain burning, regardless of if they were the target or not. 

It also often has the trigger (Not always but breath of fire I think exists in in nearly every faction, and the trigger is on at least 3 factions versions)

:tomeBlaze: Models damaged by this Action gain Burning +1 for each :tome in this Action's final duel total (to a maximum of Burning +2).

lets compare this to another trigger

:ramCritical Strike:  When resolving, the target suffers +1 damage for each :ram in this Action's final duel total (to a maximum of +2).

One of these will only affect the Target, the other trigger will apply to all models that the action effects (Damaged in this case). So if the Critical strike trigger was declared on an action that did :blast, only the target will suffer the extra damage, all other models would suffer the normal blast damage. 

 

 

Since the rules have effects that apply when things are targeted, then we have to have something to clarify when something targets. To me, its fairly simple, if you go through step 3 of resolving an action and pick a model as the target here, then it has a target. You only need to do this is the action calls out for a target. Almost all attack actions do this (shockwaves are the exception) because an attack action is defined as an action that has an opposed duel (Again, shockwaves are slightly different to normal attack actions as they don't have an opposed duel, but I think they got called attack actions so that abilities like Incorporeal would still work) and we need to know who is going to take the duel. But even Tactical actions can have a target, if the action calls for a target by using the word target somewhere in the action description. If the action never mentions the word target, then you never need a target. The definition of a target (in this edition) is all just in that step of the resolving action process. 

 

 

Hopefully this explains where I stand. I have changed my mind during this discussion, as I looked more carefully into target, and decided that Abilities can't target, because they don't go through the targeting step, where as I used to assume they could target if they stated "Target" somewhere in the ability.

Tara is NOT the target of her beyond time ability. She is the model it affects but it does not target.  

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So wait a minute, does this mean that even if friendly models can draw range and LoS to a buried Beebe, and Beebe can draw range and LoS to them while buried, that Beebe can't be affected by their Auras nor Targetted by their abilities? I have been playing that very wrong then, and it is a very significant nerf to the model. It also seems, unintentional? What would be the point of drawing LoS to Beebe be then? 

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7 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

So wait a minute, does this mean that even if friendly models can draw range and LoS to a buried Beebe, and Beebe can draw range and LoS to them while buried, that Beebe can't be affected by their Auras nor Targetted by their abilities? I have been playing that very wrong then, and it is a very significant nerf to the model. It also seems, unintentional? What would be the point of drawing LoS to Beebe be then? 

Firstly, I don't think any ability actually "targets".

If an ability says "heal a model in range" then you can draw range to a buried Pilot Beebe, so he can be healed. So I think most abilities will work exactly as you expected because they don't target they just "choose" a model in range and Line of sight, which the Pilot upgrade allows them to have to Beebe. Drawing Line of sight and range to Beebe does allow you to "attack it" or do tactical actions to it. 

Aura may be a harder thing. I think that a buried Beebe doesn't benefit from auras because he isn't in the area the aura effects. And drawing range and Line of sight don't help you be in an area. 

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1 minute ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

Where can I find the Pilot upgrase? In the app (browser) is no such upgrade.

 

I have a copy of it in the explorers book. It ought to be in the App in the explorers section. It is applied by Calypso Mk II. It is called Belly of the machine, (in its Limitations it is a pilot upgrade)

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6 hours ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

Where can I find the Pilot upgrase? In the app (browser) is no such upgrade.

 

It should be in the app, there is a thread to report issues though if you still can't find it. This is from the browser version.

chrome_screenshot_1632778756677.thumb.png.1e012147e5410a258db1cdcaaf71067d.png

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2 hours ago, Maladroit said:

It should be in the app, there is a thread to report issues though if you still can't find it. This is from the browser version.

chrome_screenshot_1632778756677.thumb.png.1e012147e5410a258db1cdcaaf71067d.png

Yeah, I found after Adran told me. I thought the upgrade  card itself is called Pilot.

But thank you. Very kind of you.👍🙃

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On 9/27/2021 at 8:32 AM, Adran said:

Firstly, I don't think any ability actually "targets".

If an ability says "heal a model in range" then you can draw range to a buried Pilot Beebe, so he can be healed. So I think most abilities will work exactly as you expected because they don't target they just "choose" a model in range and Line of sight, which the Pilot upgrade allows them to have to Beebe. Drawing Line of sight and range to Beebe does allow you to "attack it" or do tactical actions to it. 

Aura may be a harder thing. I think that a buried Beebe doesn't benefit from auras because he isn't in the area the aura effects. And drawing range and Line of sight don't help you be in an area. 

Reading it again, I think Beebe is affected. The book defines "Aura 3" to mean "Everything within 3 inches and LoS of the object [generating the Aura] is affected by the Aura."

All an Aura is is Range and LoS, and the Upgrade says that Friendly models are able to draw Range and LoS to the Buried model (if they can to Calypso)

I think the oddest thing is that there is no text allowing Beebe to draw Range and LoS BACK to those friendly models, and there is no text saying that LoS is reciprocal. So Maxine has LoS to Beebe, but Beebe doesn't have LoS to Maxine. But the Aura is on Maxine's card, so it probably uses her LoS to determine if he is in range no?

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13 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Reading it again, I think Beebe is affected. The book defines "Aura 3" to mean "Everything within 3 inches and LoS of the object [generating the Aura] is affected by the Aura."

All an Aura is is Range and LoS, and the Upgrade says that Friendly models are able to draw Range and LoS to the Buried model (if they can to Calypso)

I think the oddest thing is that there is no text allowing Beebe to draw Range and LoS BACK to those friendly models, and there is no text saying that LoS is reciprocal. So Maxine has LoS to Beebe, but Beebe doesn't have LoS to Maxine. But the Aura is on Maxine's card, so it probably uses her LoS to determine if he is in range no?

It's true that model with the pilot upgrade attached to it ("the pilot") doesn't have a way to draw line of sight and range to other models while buried (even though the pilot upgrade allows other models to draw line of sight and range to it).

I think it's a pretty much deliberate arrangement, because it'd be just silly if you could just have Maxine sit around using the Calypso as an armored suit instead of having Dr. Beebe piloting.  Especially since Dr. Beebe's Master Pilot ability does have the extra text to make his Bleeps and Sweeps pulse work while he's piloting the Calypso.

 

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

It's true that model with the pilot upgrade attached to it ("the pilot") doesn't have a way to draw line of sight and range to other models while buried (even though the pilot upgrade allows other models to draw line of sight and range to it).

I think it's a pretty much deliberate arrangement, because it'd be just silly if you could just have Maxine sit around using the Calypso as an armored suit instead of having Dr. Beebe piloting.  Especially since Dr. Beebe's Master Pilot ability does have the extra text to make his Bleeps and Sweeps pulse work while he's piloting the Calypso.

 

Oh I agree. But that would mean if Maxine is inside, no one benefits from her Aura, but if Beebe is inside, he can benefit from Maxine's Aura no?

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