Does aura affect a model that generates it if the model itself is buried?

[Zoer]

Let's say we have a game with Titania vs. Tara. Titania has her "Cruel Disappointment" which changes any severe damage she would suffer to moderate instead. At some point in the game Tara buries Titania and attacks her. As the result of the attack Titania has to suffer severe damage. Would "Cruel Disappointment" still work and the damage would be changed to moderate?

I've spent some time reading the rules and I couldn't find anything that prevents this. To me, aura effect just specifies which area is affected. Taking into account the fact that abilities work constantly, aura affects its creator and a model always has LoS to itself, I would say that the aura should still work.

The only thing that mentions abilities in buried state says that a model can't be targeted by an ability, which aura does not require. It's more about the fact that an aura cannot affect anything that is still on the table.

What do you think?

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

Oh I agree. But that would mean if Maxine is inside, no one benefits from her Aura, but if Beebe is inside, he can benefit from Maxine's Aura no?

I do not think Area effects draw range to a specific model, and instead draw range to an area of the table. Since Beebe is not on the table while Buried, I don't think he can ever be in range of the Aura's effect. When a model draws range to another model, I think of the targeting step for resolving an Action.

[Mycellanious]

23 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I do not think Area effects draw range to a specific model, and instead draw range to an area of the table. Since Beebe is not on the table while Buried, I don't think he can ever be in range of the Aura's effect. When a model draws range to another model, I think of the targeting step for resolving an Action.

I dont think the rules support this interpretation personally. An Aura is Range and LoS from the generating model, including the generating model. Buried Beebe fits all those requirements

[touchdown]

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

I dont think the rules support this interpretation personally. An Aura is Range and LoS from the generating model, including the generating model. Buried Beebe fits all those requirements

otoh, you can't drawn range and LOS while buried unless the ability or action specifically tells you to

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I dont think the rules support this interpretation personally. An Aura is Range and LoS from the generating model, including the generating model. Buried Beebe fits all those requirements

Bebee is not on the table, and area effects are an area of the table. Bebee is never possibly within the Aura's area to trigger a range/LoS check while buried. I'm in Here seems to me to allow the ability to target either Calypso or Beebe, and not as a method to safely double dip on friendly effects. All rules pertaining to model position disallow two models in the same place on the table, so I don't see why this would grant permission to ignore that without being more explicit.

[santaclaws01]

13 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Bebee is not on the table, and area effects are an area of the table. Bebee is never possibly within the Aura's area to trigger a range/LoS check while buried. I'm in Here seems to me to allow the ability to target either Calypso or Beebe, and not as a method to safely double dip on friendly effects. All rules pertaining to model position disallow two models in the same place on the table, so I don't see why this would grant permission to ignore that without being more explicit.

You're adding a restriction that isn't in the aura rules. All that is required is that the model has to be within the area(in range) and in LoS. Any model with the upgrade satisfies both conditions so long as Calypso is within the Aura.

[santaclaws01]

41 minutes ago, touchdown said:

otoh, you can't drawn range and LOS while buried unless the ability or action specifically tells you to

The model that generates the aura is the one that is drawing LoS to see what is affected by the aura. "For example, 3 means that everything within 3" and LoS of the object is affected by the Aura"

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

8 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You're adding a restriction that isn't in the aura rules. All that is required is that the model has to be within the area(in range) and in LoS. Any model with the upgrade satisfies both conditions so long as Calypso is within the Aura.

You're right, the restrictions are in the Area Effects and Table rules (which Auras must still adhere to). Calypso would be the model that triggers any Aura effect, and the upgrade doesn't let Beebe benefit from effects affecting Calypso or let you redirect effects to Beebe. 

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, touchdown said:

otoh, you can't drawn range and LOS while buried unless the ability or action specifically tells you to

I'm in Here! Does specifically say you can draw Range and LoS!

[Mycellanious]

12 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

You're right, the restrictions are in the Area Effects and Table rules (which Auras must still adhere to). Calypso would be the model that triggers any Aura effect, and the upgrade doesn't let Beebe benefit from effects affecting Calypso or let you redirect effects to Beebe. 

That isnt a restriction I see on the page

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

You're right, the restrictions are in the Area Effects and Table rules (which Auras must still adhere to). Calypso would be the model that triggers any Aura effect, and the upgrade doesn't let Beebe benefit from effects affecting Calypso or let you redirect effects to Beebe. 

You're confusing a quick description to full on rules. For example, in the table it says "Malifaux is played on a surface that measures 3 feet wide by 3 feet across. This space is referred to as the “table.” This area is where the battle will take place."

Guess that means that Scion of the Void can't attack other burried models while it is itself burried, because the battle wouldn't be taking place on the table at that point.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

You're adding a restriction that isn't in the aura rules. All that is required is that the model has to be within the area(in range) and in LoS. Any model with the upgrade satisfies both conditions so long as Calypso is within the Aura.

The problem here is you've added range to the sentence. The rules don't quite actually say that. It's a reasonable assumption and shorthand that they mean a model has to be in range and line of sight, but the aura rule don't actually say that. They say the range creates an area of the table, and models in that area and los will be effected. 

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

The problem here is you've added range to the sentence. The rules don't quite actually say that. It's a reasonable assumption and shorthand that they mean a model has to be in range and line of sight, but the aura rule don't actually say that. They say the range creates an area of the table, and models in that area and los will be effected. 

Yeah, the range creates an area. It is entirely interchangeable.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

9 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

You're confusing a quick description to full on rules. For example, in the table it says "Malifaux is played on a surface that measures 3 feet wide by 3 feet across. This space is referred to as the “table.” This area is where the battle will take place."

Guess that means that Scion of the Void can't attack other burried models while it is itself burried, because the battle wouldn't be taking place on the table at that point.

No, it is a game term definition as denoted by the 'referred to as the "table"'. All rules after that point which say table are specifying that they only apply to the 3x3 surface unless otherwise stated (like Buried).

Except Scion has an ability which explicitly says it can target a Buried model... which is exactly what Buried rules require for permission to target a Buried model. So I'm not sure how you made that logical leap with Scion. Regardless, you do not target when resolving an Aura, making Scion's ability to target Buried models moot. 

Letting an Aura hit Beebe seems like generalizing Targeting to all forms of drawing range/LoS. Since area effects don't target, this would be a pretty big contradiction to the rules.

 

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Except Scion has an ability which explicitly says it can target a Buried model... which is exactly what Buried rules require for permission to target a Buried model.

Considering you're not counting the "I'm in here ability" to allow a buried model count as being on the table for other friendly models I figured you'd ignore other abilities that provide similar exemptions to how the base rules work.

[Adran]

26 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Considering you're not counting the "I'm in here ability" to allow a buried model count as being on the table for other friendly models I figured you'd ignore other abilities that provide similar exemptions to how the base rules work.

This is a bad faith argument as far as I'm concerned. "I'm in here" doesn't let you count as being on the table for anyone. It lets other people count as being able to see you and draw range to you IF they can see and draw range to something else (Calypso). Those aren't the same thing. 

If Beebe takes an action whilst Calyspso is in hazardous terrain against Sonnia 2, there is still no Hazardous terrain to resolve, because Beebe is not in Hazardous terrain, even though the model he is drawing range and lien of sight from is. 

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

This is a bad faith argument as far as I'm concerned. "I'm in here" doesn't let you count as being on the table for anyone. It lets other people count as being able to see you and draw range to you IF they can see and draw range to something else (Calypso). Those aren't the same thing. 

If Beebe takes an action whilst Calyspso is in hazardous terrain against Sonnia 2, there is still no Hazardous terrain to resolve, because Beebe is not in Hazardous terrain, even though the model he is drawing range and lien of sight from is. 

Was more shorthand, because there's nothing that actually cares about being on the table itself rules wise. The things that matter are being able to take actions and draw range and LoS while buried or not. Any model with the pilot upgrade gets ways to do all of those while buried(although only Beebe can take his own actions freely), and that short descriptive texts about the generalities of a rule shouldn't be taken as the actual rule in and of itself. I've also already had that particular conversation with them before regarding other places in the rules where one thing references a rule and how it references it isn't how the rule actually plays out (soulstone usage).

[Adran]

32 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Was more shorthand, because there's nothing that actually cares about being on the table itself rules wise. The things that matter are being able to take actions and draw range and LoS while buried or not. Any model with the pilot upgrade gets ways to do all of those while buried(although only Beebe can take his own actions freely), and that short descriptive texts about the generalities of a rule shouldn't be taken as the actual rule in and of itself. I've also already had that particular conversation with them before regarding other places in the rules where one thing references a rule and how it references it isn't how the rule actually plays out (soulstone usage).

There is a difference in wording between Auras that are an ability and Auras generated by an action, which doesn't help here. (actions mention being in  range, abilities generally don't)

The rules for Auras in the book never mention a range. The rules on Maxines aura never mentions a range. (Range does mention auras, but that doesn't have to mean every aura is automatically a range).

If you were to look at Haka as an action that generates an aura, it does mention being in range. 

I think about the only difference this causes is when models are capable of drawing range from somewhere they are not. Now I couldn't tell you if this was an intentional difference or not. 

How would you answer the original question about Titania? Because you obviously disagree with my justification as to why it wouldn't work, but I can't see how it could work in the rules. 

EDIT - A side issue. Based on your viewing of the rules, if Beebe was buried in Calypso, but standing in an enemy Vent steam  would he take hazardous damage after resolving one of his actions?  And why? 

Vent Steam 3" - - -
Until the End Phase, models within range have Concealment. Non-Construct enemy models also treat the area as Hazardous Terrain.

[Mycellanious]

26 minutes ago, Adran said:

There is a difference in wording between Auras that are an ability and Auras generated by an action, which doesn't help here. (actions mention being in  range, abilities generally don't)

The rules for Auras in the book never mention a range. The rules on Maxines aura never mentions a range. (Range does mention auras, but that doesn't have to mean every aura is automatically a range).

If you were to look at Haka as an action that generates an aura, it does mention being in range. 

I think about the only difference this causes is when models are capable of drawing range from somewhere they are not. Now I couldn't tell you if this was an intentional difference or not. 

How would you answer the original question about Titania? Because you obviously disagree with my justification as to why it wouldn't work, but I can't see how it could work in the rules. 

EDIT - A side issue. Based on your viewing of the rules, if Beebe was buried in Calypso, but standing in an enemy Vent steam  would he take hazardous damage after resolving one of his actions?  And why? 

Vent Steam 3" - - -
Until the End Phase, models within range have Concealment. Non-Construct enemy models also treat the area as Hazardous Terrain.

No, Vent Steam would not apply because the enemy model cannot draw range or LoS to Beebe and Beebe cannot draw range or LoS to them

[Adran]

Just now, Mycellanious said:

No because the enemy model cannot draw range or LoS to Beebe and Beebe cannot draw range or LoS to them

But Beeb can draw range and line of sight to them. Master Pilot lets him.

If the action taken was "Bleeps and sweeps" then Beebe has had to draw range and line of sight to the model to give them Injured +1

[Mycellanious]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

But Beeb can draw range and line of sight to them. Master Pilot lets him.

If the action taken was "Bleeps and sweeps" then Beebe has had to draw range and line of sight to the model to give them Injured +1

So firstly, the model generating the aura needs LoS and to Range to the affected model. Secondly, drawing Range and LoS *from* a model (like Zoraida) is different from what I'm In Here says, that if you have range and LoS to Calypso you also have range and LoS to Beebe. Drawing LoS *from* Calypso does not imply that the Vent Steam model has Range and LoS to Beebe, in the same way that Zoraida wouldnt suffer Hazardous from Eyes in the Night. They are two distinct scenarios

[santaclaws01]

24 minutes ago, Adran said:

The rules for Auras in the book never mention a range. The rules on Maxines aura never mentions a range. (Range does mention auras, but that doesn't have to mean every aura is automatically a range).

It doesn't say the word range, but it does say this" An Aura extends out in all directions from an object a number of inches equal to the listed distance in inches, as measured from the edge of the object’s base. For example, a3 means that everything within 3" and LoS of the object is affected by the Aura."

And range is defined as "Many times, a player will need to determine if an object is in range of another. This is referring to the distance between the two objects. An object is within range if any portion of that object’s base is at that distance or closer. Any effect that references an object being “within” a distance is talking about range."

Based on how range is defined, it is talking about range.
 

28 minutes ago, Adran said:

How would you answer the original question about Titania? Because you obviously disagree with my justification as to why it wouldn't work, but I can't see how it could work in the rules. 

I would say it doesn't work because the rules say that actions that can target buried models ignore auras.
 

33 minutes ago, Adran said:

EDIT - A side issue. Based on your viewing of the rules, if Beebe was buried in Calypso, but standing in an enemy Vent steam  would he take hazardous damage after resolving one of his actions?  And why? 

Vent Steam 3" - - -
Until the End Phase, models within range have Concealment. Non-Construct enemy models also treat the area as Hazardous Terrain.

I'm just gonna convert this question to asking about a hazardous aura that can hit friendly models, as "I'm in here!" only lets friendly models draw range and LoS to the pilot, and my answer would be yes, the pilot model would suffer hazardous damage each time it takes an action or moves(so, mostly only if Beebe uses his welding torch or bleeps and sweeps)

[Sprixus]

On 9/24/2021 at 8:05 AM, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

 

 

"Buried models cannot be the target of any ... Abilities..."

Auras don't have targets. But auras do only affect models, including the model the model casting the aura, within the area. Auras have no area when the model is buried, so the buried model is not within the aura. Other abilities on the card still work, such like armoured, hard to wound etc. Even parry would work. But auras do not.