Hamelin's Unclean Influence and Tangle Together

[Kharnage]

Hamelin uses Unclean Influence on a pack of 4 Malifaux Rats. The first Malifaux Rat takes Tangle Together, replacing the other Malifaux Rats and himself with a Rat King. Do the 3 remaining accumulated actions that were generated for the original Malifaux Rats now get carried over to the Rat King?

[Jesy Blue]

No, only the model taking the Tangled action is the one being replaced... the rest no longer exist.

[Kharnage]

"If the new and original models belong to the same Crew, one new model becomes the target of any effects that targeted or chose any original models, such as Schemes, Leader designation, or lasting game effects. That new model is always considered a legal target for those effects."

6 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

No, only the model taking the Tangled action is the one being replaced... the rest no longer exist.

Is there a reason that step 4 wouldn't carry over any "lasting game effects", such as actions waiting to to be taken by the replaced models?

[Jesy Blue]

1. If the first Rat's action was to attack the second Rat and kills it, does Rat 2 get an action or is he already dead?

2. The other Rat's are not in the Rat King; they are removed. Do not confuse thematics with rules.

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Jesy Blue said:

1. If the first Rat's action was to attack the second Rat and kills it, does Rat 2 get an action or is he already dead?

2. The other Rat's are not in the Rat King; they are removed. Do not confuse thematics with rules.

You're the one getting into thematics here. The rules say that lasting game effects that targeted any of the original models target the new model. The question comes down to are the generated actions considered lasting game effects.

[Jesy Blue]

3 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You're the one getting into thematics here. 

Oh, how so?

[Kharnage]

11 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Do not confuse thematics with rules.

Either way, this was unnecessarily condescending, and didn't address my thesis. 

[santaclaws01]

3 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Oh, how so?

Because you're wondering how a model that isn't on the table anymore can still take an action, when it's not that model taking an action. It's the effect on the model being carried over as the rules say to do.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

The lasting game effects clause only specifies effects which targeted or chose any of the original models. Unclean Influence does neither, since the words target or chose are absent from the text. I would also say that a “lasting game effect” is one that has a defined endpoint, like “Until the end of this model’s Activation” or “Until the End Phase”, or lasts for the duration of the entire game, like Schemes. To me, a lasting effect is one that is already resolved, so I don’t consider an unresolved effect a lasting effect. I think the onus would be on you to prove that Unclean Influence targets or choses all rats, or that an Action is a lasting effect. I think that will be a hard sell since it gives a 7SS model w/ Onslaught 3 free AP.

[Kharnage]

36 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

The lasting game effects clause only specifies effects which targeted or chose any of the original models. Unclean Influence does neither, since the words target or chose are absent from the text. I would also say that a “lasting game effect” is one that has a defined endpoint, like “Until the end of this model’s Activation” or “Until the End Phase”, or lasts for the duration of the entire game, like Schemes. 

I think we get into annoying territory with this interpretation either way. If a 4 hp Mounted Guard gets hit by Candy's Burn Out trigger on Glimpse of Insanity, does the old model dying to her Misery on his fast and a Lyssa's ping on his Stunned, then also immediately die because the Guard Patrol is now not carrying over any lasting game effects and getting pinged by Pandora and a Sorrow for the 'new' model's Fast and Stunned? I would initially assume that "have I been pinged for gaining this" carried over but now you've got me wondering. 

[Jesy Blue]

1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

Either way, this was unnecessarily condescending, and didn't address my thesis. 

Wasn't intending to be condescending; it's just how I come off. I get called on it often, I'm trying to be better.

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Because you're wondering how a model that isn't on the table anymore can still take an action, when it's not that model taking an action. It's the effect on the model being carried over as the rules say to do.

I still don't see how it carries over when the single model left has already been affected by the Action and taken it's action.

Even in the grand scheme of things, at most what we are looking the possibility of taking all 12 Rats on the table, morphing them into a single Rat King, then taking ELEVEN actions in a row, on an entirely different model's activation.

Nay I say! Even if the rules say it's legal!

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

20 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I think we get into annoying territory with this interpretation either way. If a 4 hp Mounted Guard gets hit by Candy's Burn Out trigger on Glimpse of Insanity, does the old model dying to her Misery on his fast and a Lyssa's ping on his Stunned, then also immediately die because the Guard Patrol is now not carrying over any lasting game effects and getting pinged by Pandora and a Sorrow for the 'new' model's Fast and Stunned? I would initially assume that "have I been pinged for gaining this" carried over but now you've got me wondering. 

Misery is once per activation for the model which has the ability, it would not trigger again when the new Guard Patrol gains Fast and Stunned. Only if there were two other models that could ping it for those conditions, like Pandora and another Lyssa, would it be killed in this example.

Abilities do not target as an additional factor that makes this example different from Unclean Influence, and Misery does not have you chose a model.

[Maladroit]

16 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I think we get into annoying territory with this interpretation either way. If a 4 hp Mounted Guard gets hit by Candy's Burn Out trigger on Glimpse of Insanity, does the old model dying to her Misery on his fast and a Lyssa's ping on his Stunned, then also immediately die because the Guard Patrol is now not carrying over any lasting game effects and getting pinged by Pandora and a Sorrow for the 'new' model's Fast and Stunned? I would initially assume that "have I been pinged for gaining this" carried over but now you've got me wondering. 

If the Mounted guard was in all 4 Misery aura's at the same time then all 4 would be triggered as sequential effects, and you'd have to pick which of the overlapping aura's to apply (I think - aura's are one effect in the game that are specifically defined as lasting effects, but that is the aura itself - not an effect generated by the aura). And because these are once per activation they have already been applied to the mounted guard model so would not be able to be applied to the guard. However, if the new guard model was placed such that it was in Pandora's aura when the mounted guard was not, I don't see why Misery wouldn't ping.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Another point of contention is that targeting and choosing models for actions occurs prior to the flip, during the targeting and pay costs steps. Unclean Influence skips those and rats are not selected to perform an action until after the flip.

[Maladroit]

12 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Misery is once per activation for the model which has the ability, it would not trigger again when the new Guard Patrol gains Fast and Stunned. Only if there were two other models that could ping it for those conditions, like Pandora and another Lyssa, would it be killed in this example.

Abilities do not target as an additional factor that makes this example different from Unclean Influence, and Misery does not have you chose a model.

Maybe this is more accurate than what I said.

[Adran]

Away from rules, so this is quite possibly wrong. Unclean influence doesn't give them actions it gives them permission to take an action, and so when they join together the permission doesn't stack, it's just One permission to take an action ( although I'm not sure if the fact it'd already taken an action from it means it can't take more from that action)

 

Edit also just to say that this question has been discussed before, and I think the consensus was  that you don't get3 extra actions. But I'm on a phone so can't easily search for the discussion

[Maladroit]

A related question then, the Direct Control tigger hands out Focus to each Malifaux rat, I'm assuming that if you decided to form the rat king first, for . . . reasons . .  . you wouldn't get Focus - the Focus is applied when resolving, which means that you resolve the replace effect first and then the trigger effect - meaning that the rat king is no longer a rat? I mean this should almost never be an issue - you can just work through the rats without using the move or taking an action to pile on the focus. But just checking my rules understanding.

Edit to add: Unless only one rat is in range obviously . . .

Edited September 20, 2021 by Maladroit
Clarification

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

14 minutes ago, Maladroit said:

A related question then, the Direct Control tigger hands out Focus to each Malifaux rat, I'm assuming that if you decided to form the rat king first, for . . . reasons . .  . you wouldn't get Focus - the Focus is applied when resolving, which means that you resolve the replace effect first and then the trigger effect - meaning that the rat king is no longer a rat? I mean this should almost never be an issue - you can just work through the rats without using the move or taking an action to pile on the focus. But just checking my rules understanding.

Edit to add: Unless only one rat is in range obviously . . .

All Malifaux Rats will move 3” and gain Focus+1 before the first Malifaux Rat’s action is resolved since generated Actions are only resolved once the initial Action is completely resolved. So Rat King forms with Focus+2.

[Maladroit]

10 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

All Malifaux Rats will move 3” and gain Focus+1 before the first Malifaux Rat’s action is resolved since generated Actions are only resolved once the initial Action is completely resolved. So Rat King forms with Focus+2.

Okay, I think I've got it. So say four rats get pulsed by Unclean influence, you choose one rat (all rats are acting simultaneously) move the rat if you choose, you don't even choose an action at this point as that is part of the resolving an action, gain focus 1 from the trigger, then move on to rat number 2 and repeat? Then all four rats choose an action - and resolve each action in any order you choose. 

[solkan]

30 minutes ago, Maladroit said:

Okay, I think I've got it. So say four rats get pulsed by Unclean influence, you choose one rat (all rats are acting simultaneously) move the rat if you choose, you don't even choose an action at this point as that is part of the resolving an action, gain focus 1 from the trigger, then move on to rat number 2 and repeat? Then all four rats choose an action - and resolve each action in any order you choose. 

Pretty much, yeah.  Just remember that that last part us “Then each rat resolves its action, remembering that declaring which action a model is going to take is step one of resolving an action.”

 

[solkan]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Away from rules, so this is quite possibly wrong. Unclean influence doesn't give them actions it gives them permission to take an action, and so when they join together the permission doesn't stack, it's just One permission to take an action ( although I'm not sure if the fact it'd already taken an action from it means it can't take more from that action)

 

Edit also just to say that this question has been discussed before, and I think the consensus was  that you don't get3 extra actions. But I'm on a phone so can't easily search for the discussion

I’d provide you a link to the Turbo Rat King “Is this really what Wyrd intended?” discussion thread, and say that the only thing that appears to have changed between then and now is that there’s a cap on Focused.

 

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

3 hours ago, solkan said:

I’d provide you a link to the Turbo Rat King “Is this really what Wyrd intended?” discussion thread, and say that the only thing that appears to have changed between then and now is that there’s a cap on Focused.

 

 

They also got rid of highest value condition, so one replacing many gains a combined value of any conditions with a value. One model replacing 3 models with Distracted+2 each would end up gaining Distracted+6. 

One model replacing many also now gains all summon upgrades of replaced models.

Coryphee problem is also fixed with: “if any of the original model(s) has activated, all new models are considered to have activated”. 

I think all 3 problems are fully addressed with the rules as is. The change to Replace was made back in the 2020 errata.

[Rufess]

1 hour ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Coryphee problem is also fixed with: “if any original model has activated, all new models are considered to have activated”. 

The Duet is not activated when replaced with 2 Coryphees so this part does not affect them. It is added to prevent forming a Rat King with new summoned Rats.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

19 minutes ago, Rufess said:

The Duet is not activated when replaced with 2 Coryphees so this part does not affect them. It is added to prevent forming a Rat King with new summoned Rats.

Not related to the problems specified in the thread linked by solkan, but correct on both counts. Was merely commenting that the problems with replace in 2019 do not exist anymore when it was implied many still did.