Abominable Rasputina

[Jinn]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Becoming one thing doesn't stop you from being another thing (for instance, if you become friendly to something, you're still enemy to it. You can be friendly and enemy).

So I don't think there is any justification to stop treating an ice pillar as an ice pillar (it can just gain the corpse quality as well).

My justification is that I really want it to be true.

Please Wyrd, Acolytes really need this. Give us the FAQ we desire.

[Jordon]

8 hours ago, Jinn said:

My justification is that I really want it to be true.

Please Wyrd, Acolytes really need this. Give us the FAQ we desire.

To be fair, I think Acolytes need this change, not Raspy2. If not then they're still DOA for Raspy1

[Euryale]

If anyone has tried them, how are Hoarcats now? Both as a summon and as a tech. They look like they could be quite defensive but they don't seem to "do" anything in particular. 

[Peturd]

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Becoming one thing doesn't stop you from being another thing (for instance, if you become friendly to something, you're still enemy to it. You can be friendly and enemy).

So I don't think there is any justification to stop treating an ice pillar as an ice pillar (it can just gain the corpse quality as well).

Schrodingers marker: simultaneously height 4 and 0! Haha

Just kidding there, though I don’t think it’s quite the same as friendly/enemy as there is no mutually exclusive aspects. I tend towards agreeing with your take for sure, just saw the discussion on this had dropped off. Whenever there isn’t a 100% clear answer I’d rather interpret it in the way that favors my opponent anyway.

[solkan]

On 9/27/2021 at 9:27 AM, Peturd said:

Schrodingers marker: simultaneously height 4 and 0! Haha

There are enough models that run around getting treated as corpse markers that you're not going to get anywhere there.

More importantly, a Corpse Marker has -no- distinguishing characteristics apart from being named a Corpse marker.  The marker rules say that a particular marker is Ht 0 unless the rules say otherwise, and a Ht4 Blocking, Impassable marker is saying otherwise just as much as a Sz mindless zombie is.  (There isn't any reason a model couldn't have a rule like "This model drops a Ht4 impassable Corpse marker when killed".    )

 

[Plaag]

i think kaltgeist is useless, also shielded works with any push-charhe or disengage

[Plaag]

On 9/20/2021 at 8:34 AM, Jinn said:

Had a Leylines game against Titania 2 yesterday that ended in a close draw. I think I would lose the rematch though. I was able to Ice Pillar off Killjoy for most of the game (only a part of that was Creeping Ice, mostly just Silent One goodness) and in the post-game discussion my opponent regretted hiring him into this matchup and will take the Emissary in future. I'll post the lists and then talk about the Summons and after that the new models/Title.

This was my list:

Rasputina, Abominable - 10SS Cache

• Wendigo
• Envy with Diesel Engine
• Silent One with Magical Training
• Blessed of December
• Kaldgeist x 3

vs.

Titania, Autumn Queen - 2SS Cache

• Gorar
• Killjoy
• Rougarou
• Erymanthian Boar
• Autumn Knight x 2, both with the Killjoy upgrade
• Changeling with Ancient Pact

This list was very strong despite Killjoy making only 1AP of attacks against a Kaldgeist (which lived) over the entire game. My opponent was able to draw 6 additional cards every turn using Titania + the Changeling copying Titania which is very potent. On to what I learned.

Summons:

I think the worst summon in general is the December Acolyte, even if you have the card. Summoning one up the board on turn 1 before crews engage has some justification, especially if you can Tools for the Job the summon card back to your hand without your opponent interrupting you. The Ice Pillars being cover just kills this model, and while the Armour +1 helps, it does nothing to fix the models role in the crew. I am still desperately hoping that I've somehow misunderstood the Cryosleep ability and that by treating an Ice Pillar as a Corpse Marker you can also stop treating it as an Ice Pillar temporarily (problematically, this would allow you to walk on it), but as far as I know that is not the case. More on that later as it also hurts Rasputina.

Silent Ones as always are excellent. I summoned one on turn 3 and it was immediately able to start dropping pillars or healing as needed, and with Armour +1 and being able to target through Ice Mirror it is very hard to remove.

I summoned an Ice Dancer on turn 4 that may have been able to help me score the Strat that turn, and definitely would have helped the next turn. Butterfly Jump, Armour +1, and easy healing is a good combo. These are definitely good summons sometimes due to the ease of leaving engagements and the synergy with Kaldgeists.

Finally, I summoned a Hoarcat on turn 1 because my highest card was a 9. I severely underrated these as summons purely due to how effective Manipulative is when you can place the model up the board unactivated. These guys with Armour +1 are amazing tar pits, and the range you can summon them is amazing. On turn 1 I was able to summon one engaged with two Autumn Knights (both had already activated, but Titania hadn't so this blocked her free movement aura) which delayed my opponents entire game plan. My opponent went with Titania and used her, plus a triggered attack from an Autumn Knight, to deal four damage to it after Armour and move it out of Engagement with one of the Knights. Then it went at the end of the turn walked back into engagement (it was still Engaged with one so couldn't charge) and ate an Ice Pillar to heal up 2 ready for next turn with Manipulative back up. Later in the game when I summoned a December Acolyte I sent it in to do a similar tar pit role (as I couldn't shoot ANYTHING with all the Concealing Markers + all the Cover my markers provided) and it just folded.

Kaldgeists:

They are amazing. I strongly recommend keeping one back in your crew to stack shielded on your backline when necessary. Otherwise, a pair of these make for excellent schemers surprisingly while also acting as forward nodes. Their Jagged Ice action is quite good when you're just trying to annoy models that you've pinned down on the other side of a wall of Ice with Silent Ones or Raspy. The only problem I have with them is that Frostbite actually has very little synergy with the rest of the crew as it has very little synergy with the Mutilate trigger, which is how most of the crew gives Slow. Mutilate checks if they have Slow already and only tries to apply it if they don't, which means this aura is still bad even now that you have it on a minion that is actually good, with the mobility to get it near enemies and good ways to give out Slow.

Raspy:

Abominable Rasputina is way better than Raspy1. But like Raspy1 I found her shockwave to be the only good attack action she has. She also has the Summon, which is very, very good, but I'm just talking about the attacks here. I copied Fissure of Frost almost every turn with the Wendigo just for the extra Pillar, the range, and the chance of card draw, and it's what i had the most success with on Raspy's turns as well. The other attacks have a few problems that work against them, but they aren't competing for AP with Fissure of Frost so it is more a disappointment or personal gripe about how this version of Raspy is similarly Shockwave focused in the end.

The problems with Northern Winds are that it doesn't ignore Friendly Fire, and that the damage will usually be at an extra negative on an already terrible spread due to cover from Ice Pillars unless you want to discard a card for every trigger due to Ice Mirror (which still sucks).

Cold Snap is decent but it has some problems as well. The good parts, you can use it on a charge (which will probably give a Shielded due to Ice in the Veins) and the Rift of Snow trigger can get you out of engagement. The bad part is that it's range 1" and you never want to put your Ice Pillars within 1" of your enemy as that saves them an AP to remove it. The Rift of Snow trigger helps if you can land it, but it still might be a better option to just Create the Pillar 2" away and not attack with the melee, thereby guaranteeing that your enemy will have to spend an extra AP to remove the pillar. Still a good attack, just not the focus of her offensive combat like I'd hoped. If they release a Focus spamming model in the Arcanist starter box this attack gets way better.

 

Overall what this crew is missing is card draw, and a way for the crew to ignore Ice Pillars. If Cryosleep was intended to do that and they FAQ it I will be very happy with the crew. If Hoarcats, Ice Dancers, and December Acolytes (along with Ice Gamin, Snow Storm, and maybe a Laugh Off equivalent ability while touching an Ice Pillar for the Ice Golem) are buffed for Raspy1 then that could also bring up the crew and fix the most egregious Ice Pillar problem (which is definitely December Acolytes).

always summon acolyte, 2 silent ones need to be hired at a start and even with cover they can build in crow with tools to give opp slow

[Jordon]

8 hours ago, Plaag said:

i think kaltgeist is useless, also shielded works with any push-charhe or disengage

Care to elaborate on that? I sort of feel like Kaltgeist are beyond useful, borderline required hiring. Nearly all December models interact with ice pillars in some capacity. Having mobile ice pillars makes those interactions so much easier to use. 

I'm on the fence on whether I'd hire three of them, but almost certainly I'm taking two every time. Of course this is all just speculation at this point. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Jordon said:

Care to elaborate on that? I sort of feel like Kaltgeist are beyond useful, borderline required hiring. Nearly all December models interact with ice pillars in some capacity. Having mobile ice pillars makes those interactions so much easier to use. 

I'm on the fence on whether I'd hire three of them, but almost certainly I'm taking two every time. Of course this is all just speculation at this point. 

i dont see any place for them, also cannt find any situation where they will be more useful then other models(i hire 2 silent one+1train, blessed, ice golem with cash, storm)

[default_108]

So, I've been out of the raspy game this edition and only got back into it.  I'm pretty sure I love this new version but why all the hate for Acolytes?  Their gun is pretty strong.  And it hit me mid-typing this message it's because we summon Ice Pillars everywhere and they act as cover for enemy models making them useless isn't it?

So if that's the biggest problem the only change he would really need is "Ice Sight - Ignores Ice Pillar Markers when taking attack actions" or something like that but worded by a writer instead of me.

[Jordon]

19 minutes ago, default_108 said:

And it hit me mid-typing this message it's because we summon Ice Pillars everywhere and they act as cover for enemy models making them useless isn't it?

Bingo! And it’s more of a crew issue than specifically a Acolyte one.

Additionally, I find them to lack a real purpose in the list. Silent Ones can do ranged damage better, for cheaper, and bring a ton of additional utility. Acolytes don’t scheme, can’t take a hit, and lack any meaningful synergy within the crew. 

[default_108]

Going back to review their cards side by side instead of individually....okay yeah I can see why they suck.  It's less the model and more the "why take X when Y is so much better" same problem the Gamin will face with these Katilgeists.  Thanks for mentioning that, it will inform my future crew builds better.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

On 10/18/2021 at 4:17 PM, Plaag said:

i dont see any place for them, also cannt find any situation where they will be more useful then other models(i hire 2 silent one+1train, blessed, ice golem with cash, storm)

interesting, personally I find Snow Storm pretty bad and would rather hire two Kaltgeists.

[Trimasel]

Storm gives additional mobility to slow Golem. If you don't take it, then opponent can easy avoid Golem. I'm also prefer take two of them or none.

Additionally I find Mechanical Rider quite helpful to draw a cards that are required for hungry Raspy. Otherwise list almost the same (if I don't need special tech). 

[Jordon]

I find SnowStorm to be pretty meh with Raspy1. They're mostly there as a Golem/Raspi taxi. I still find it inexplicable that they cannot use ice mirror given the Snow part of Snowstorm. 

I will say that they at least look a lot better with Raspy2. Easily able to hand out shielded to the whole team since all they do is push friendly models around. 

I still haven't used Kaltgeist yet but I honestly don't see how they aren't an auto include for either version of Raspy. Even Raspy1 gets a significant boost with these guys IMO.

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thing to note about snowstorm is that it can be pretty lethal. 2/4/6 damage tracks are amazing with positive flips, and between focus, charge through, and 1-2 puncture, you can hit for 6 damage a surprising amount of the time with that sort of ability.

So good to leverage that lethal damage potential.

[admiralvorkraft]

59 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing to note about snowstorm is that it can be pretty lethal. 2/4/6 damage tracks are amazing with positive flips, and between focus, charge through, and 1-2 puncture, you can hit for 6 damage a surprising amount of the time with that sort of ability.

So good to leverage that lethal damage potential.

Her shockwave is also surprisingly potent. 

[Euryale]

Has anyone tried Cerberus in Rasputina (either the alt or the normal)?

I've played quite a bit with her, and like a lot of people I think the best thing in December is the Blessed (maybe tied with the Silent Ones). In quite a few games, I've wished I could take more than one Blessed, until I realised that I kind of can.

The Cerberus is a very similar model to the Blessed, with the biggest difference being terrifying vs better stats, hard to wound, and slightly better healing and triggers. There are quite a few other differences, but they're relatively minor and leave both models on a relatively equal playing field.

With Abominable Rasputina, you do need to consider the fact only the Blessed can eat Ice Pillars and get shielded, but even then, the Blessed usually has pretty much no synergy and survives off great abilities and stats. In addition, when putting a Soulstone Cache on Cerberus it counts as a minion so benefits from the second + ability, unlike the Blessed.

You would need to pay the extra Soulstone for a Cerberus, but the amount of times I've thought "if only the Blessed came in multiples", I'm thinking it could be worth it. 

Of course, if anyone has any contradictory experience, I'd appreciate hearing it.

[Cats Laughing]

On 11/13/2021 at 6:26 PM, Euryale said:

Has anyone tried Cerberus in Rasputina (either the alt or the normal)?

Of course, if anyone has any contradictory experience, I'd appreciate hearing it.

Unfortunately my experience with this is from M2E (and M1E) where Raspy could give them Armor 2 and make them frozen heart (making them ice mirrors for her and getting over their WP issues). In those versions they were fast killy models made more survivable by Raspy and slightly more killy (immunity to Terror was a small buff to killing).

 

M3E Raspy (either version) doesn't give them much of anything, but you could still use them in the manner you mention.

 

[Cats Laughing]

On 9/27/2021 at 10:26 AM, Euryale said:

If anyone has tried them, how are Hoarcats now? Both as a summon and as a tech. They look like they could be quite defensive but they don't seem to "do" anything in particular. 

Haven't used new Raspy yet, but an idea I have kicking around in my head is that new Raspy can toss out her bonus action Ice Pillar shockwave 12" away, slow a few enemy models any/or thin opponent's hand, then she can charge and cold snap twice from that new pillar (off the charge and action #2), then she can summon off the ice pillar or a resulting corpse if flips have gone well.  IMHO, the Hoarcat is the best summon if you're gonna summon in your opponent's face, as it's the most melee of the living December minions and with manipulative and armor it's most likely to survive being in an opponent's face.  Stealth can even play a part with preventing long distance attacks.

If you've managed to kill something with Raspy's 2 attacks, then the Hoarcat will potentially be able to benefit from tundra hunter (as you'll either have a corpse or pillar nearby) which can make them decently killy for a cheap minion.

 

This isn't omgwtf top tier, but I think it'll be reasonable.

[Euryale]

1 hour ago, Cats Laughing said:

Unfortunately my experience with this is from M2E (and M1E) where Raspy could give them Armor 2 and make them frozen heart (making them ice mirrors for her and getting over their WP issues). In those versions they were fast killy models made more survivable by Raspy and slightly more killy (immunity to Terror was a small buff to killing).

 

M3E Raspy (either version) doesn't give them much of anything, but you could still use them in the manner you mention.

 

Thanks for the response

I did actually do a bit of testing with the Cerberus. Unfortunately it was against Collodi and we only had time for two rounds; it was probably Collodi's game, partially because he's not exactly well balanced, but mostly because I cocked up quite badly (got greedy with the Blessed - it killed three little models in one activation, but did not realise how quickly the Coryphee Duet can move with Collodi (or know about his free focus for all) and I just forgot about its soulstone cache for defence. I also mind blanked and thought I started with 2 silent ones as that's what I normally do, forgetting that my initial plan was to summon one turn 1. If I'd have remembered these two things, my Blessed wouldn't be minced meat turn 1 and that may have changed the game).

However, I did test out two Cerberi and can say this:

+ I really liked how fast they were; it's my favourite thing about the Blessed, and I like it here

+ Terrifying seems good when hunting small, low WP models

+ Min three damage is really nice

+ Rams being an easy heal is nice

+ Easy + flips with soulstone cache is great (though I did black joker mine...)

- If the opponent gets passed their terrifying (likely), they lack shielding, high defence, and hard to wound; I thought terrifying would make up for this, but unfortunately not. The blessed was clearly ahead defence-wise simply for the fact it was easier to draw or beat high power attacks

- Their leap needing a 7 vs the Blessed 6 came up quite a bit in all honesty; partially luck, but still significant

- Their damage capping at 5 means they can struggle to one shot when needed - the blessed can get 7 relatively easily should it need it

- It's not really a negative for the cerberus, but I do like the Blessed getting Pouncing Strike. I understand the cerberus not getting it, but I think it leaves its attack as slightly worse

 

Overall I did like them, but their biggest weakness without a shadow of a doubt was their defence. I don't think I'd take two again, but I would be tempted to take one and an ice golem. The cerberus can flank on the weaker side while the blessed clears the stronger and the golem surges down the middle (with a Creeping Ice Ice Pillar down so no one can bury or place them away).

It's very scheme dependant, but I think December's 'scheme runner' the Ice Dancer just doesn't have the offensive or movement capabilities to safely send them to scheme on their own. The Blessed and the Cerberi on the other hand can move very quickly out of combat (leap away so no need to disengage) and can't really be stopped by anything not substantial. Yes you're paying a lot of extra stones, but I'd rather pay the extra and have something that will immediately disrupt and take stones away from the opponent, than have two things that don't really threaten (scheme wise or offensively) and can be easily killed.

I'll hopefully test again soon against a non-dead man's hand master and see how it goes.

[Jordon]

22 hours ago, Euryale said:

Thanks for the response

I did actually do a bit of testing with the Cerberus. Unfortunately it was against Collodi and we only had time for two rounds; it was probably Collodi's game, partially because he's not exactly well balanced, but mostly because I cocked up quite badly (got greedy with the Blessed - it killed three little models in one activation, but did not realise how quickly the Coryphee Duet can move with Collodi (or know about his free focus for all) and I just forgot about its soulstone cache for defence. I also mind blanked and thought I started with 2 silent ones as that's what I normally do, forgetting that my initial plan was to summon one turn 1. If I'd have remembered these two things, my Blessed wouldn't be minced meat turn 1 and that may have changed the game).

However, I did test out two Cerberi and can say this:

+ I really liked how fast they were; it's my favourite thing about the Blessed, and I like it here

+ Terrifying seems good when hunting small, low WP models

+ Min three damage is really nice

+ Rams being an easy heal is nice

+ Easy + flips with soulstone cache is great (though I did black joker mine...)

- If the opponent gets passed their terrifying (likely), they lack shielding, high defence, and hard to wound; I thought terrifying would make up for this, but unfortunately not. The blessed was clearly ahead defence-wise simply for the fact it was easier to draw or beat high power attacks

- Their leap needing a 7 vs the Blessed 6 came up quite a bit in all honesty; partially luck, but still significant

- Their damage capping at 5 means they can struggle to one shot when needed - the blessed can get 7 relatively easily should it need it

- It's not really a negative for the cerberus, but I do like the Blessed getting Pouncing Strike. I understand the cerberus not getting it, but I think it leaves its attack as slightly worse

 

Overall I did like them, but their biggest weakness without a shadow of a doubt was their defence. I don't think I'd take two again, but I would be tempted to take one and an ice golem. The cerberus can flank on the weaker side while the blessed clears the stronger and the golem surges down the middle (with a Creeping Ice Ice Pillar down so no one can bury or place them away).

It's very scheme dependant, but I think December's 'scheme runner' the Ice Dancer just doesn't have the offensive or movement capabilities to safely send them to scheme on their own. The Blessed and the Cerberi on the other hand can move very quickly out of combat (leap away so no need to disengage) and can't really be stopped by anything not substantial. Yes you're paying a lot of extra stones, but I'd rather pay the extra and have something that will immediately disrupt and take stones away from the opponent, than have two things that don't really threaten (scheme wise or offensively) and can be easily killed.

I'll hopefully test again soon against a non-dead man's hand master and see how it goes.

Personally, I'd never hire a single cerberous. Not because they are a bad option, but mostly because hiring Myranda is almost always going to be a better idea.

Raspy is the only other master who gains access to beasts. Myranda makes those beasts so much better. She can move/charge Hoarcats, which allows them to keep their manipulative.

More importantly, she can give herself a mutation and on the following turn, shape change into a better version of a Cerberous. Defense is definitely a big problem for the Cerberous and the mutations help address that. You also gain the versatility of changing into another Blessed if your hired one died (again a better version of it).

So not only do you get your big cat, but you actually can benefit from some synergy with Myranda that you wouldn't otherwise have by just hiring a cerberous.  

[Euryale]

49 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Personally, I'd never hire a single cerberous. Not because they are a bad option, but mostly because hiring Myranda is almost always going to be a better idea.

Raspy is the only other master who gains access to beasts. Myranda makes those beasts so much better. She can move/charge Hoarcats, which allows them to keep their manipulative.

More importantly, she can give herself a mutation and on the following turn, shape change into a better version of a Cerberous. Defense is definitely a big problem for the Cerberous and the mutations help address that. You also gain the versatility of changing into another Blessed if your hired one died (again a better version of it).

So not only do you get your big cat, but you actually can benefit from some synergy with Myranda that you wouldn't otherwise have by just hiring a cerberous.  

Thanks for pointing out, I totally overlooked her (for some reason I thought she was Neverborn so I just didn't even look at her). 

She definitely brings more utility to the crew, especially with her ability to turn into a Blessed or Cerberus at will, and then move Hoarcats the Blessed about. 

I shall definitely look into her!

I would debate her vs the Blessed, but I think I'd rather take both, and then have her turn into the Blessed if things go south. I really like the speed of the Blessed, so it would be good to have the options for her to either stay and support, and then transform later when the Blessed is already away.

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thing to note about Myranda gaining a mutation is you can't leap until turn 3.

So if you need to leap faster than that, she starts to look a bit dicier.

But also she can transform into other forms like Scorpius.

[Jordon]

I'm wondering about Mech Rider with Raspy2 since she essentially drops ice pillars now (corpses that are treated as ice pillars).

It also seems like there are many instances of mutilate within the crew that Mech can give out using her Innovation trigger. 

Not to mention that ice mirror is still very much a thing and so card draw is always a very welcomed trait to have.

With Raspy2 ability to summon, it also opens up a bit more hiring options so the 11ss cost doesn't necessarily take away from the crew as much as it would for Raspy1