Showgirl Help

[Jordon]

Hey, I'm wondering how people are finding showgirls? I myself have not really gotten them to work since the start of M3E and I've basically stopped running them entirely.

My issue with them is that I just don't know what they're supposed to be doing. They're so flimsy and hit like a wet noodle and are not even all that great at scheming. At 4ss I find mannequins just bring so much more. Lure is cool and all, but it usually just ends up getting me killed. Manipulative is just not enough to keep these models from getting focused to death in a single shot.

I'm not sure if it's just faction envy but I look at the Belles and Beckoners as just better versions within their respective keyword. They seem to tie into their mechanic more fluidly than Showgirls.

Celebrity and DMM is nice and does make them better in interact heavy pools, but I just rarely find I need them and they don't really seem to bring anything to their own keyword. I find Saboteurs just better versions in terms of raw scheming potential.  

Maybe I'm just missing something but I found them much more appealing in M2E when they gave out reactivate to their keyword upon death (a good reason to hire them in theme). They could also nuke scheme markers from range which came in handy and kept them out of harms way. 

I feel like your "supposed" to be running them with Mannequins, who can take the hit and also heal them. However at 9ss, the due still can't compete with other 9ss options (both in and out of theme). 

How are other people using showgirls and achieving success? 

[HomelessOne]

I've barely gotten any games in, but! I feel like the big uses are their relative cheapness. They're a Presto-Chango vector that you trade up with pretty easily, or they can carry MT for you since they're Living. Seduction is great if you can set it up on something that stacked Focus, but it's pretty situational and the stars don't always align.

[dancater]

Generally I agree, the Showgirl model is underwhelming. No damage to speak of, highly conditional defences which can be worked around with relative ease. Reasonable speed. With Don't mind me and Celebrity they can scheme OK, but up close they are only going to do so for an activation or two before they are dead. 

I bring one along because; Living so Magical Training, Lure and Seduction. Keep her back,, benefit from the extra card, activate her late and then either sneak to a isolated place to drop a useful scheme marker (either to score or deceive) or throw out the Lure and/or Seduction to disrupt my opponents plan, while still staying well back. She works for Colette's movement shenanigans in this position, another useful thing. Then in turns 4-5 I can run her in, ideally late turn 4 and then reactivate early turn 5 and throw out as much distraction as I can to mess with my opponent, put her in a place where they likely need to waste an activation to kill her.

So one is useful. More, not so much. But the Performer keyword has so many premier expensive models, Harata, the Duet, Cassandra and Carlos, and Angelica isn't cheap. Add to that some great Arcanist versatiles (notably at 4SS the Effigy is preferable to a Showgirl at 5SS and a Saboteur at 5SS competes) and the Showgirl is a tough include, especially because, as you say, the Mannequin is cheaper, arguably tougher and, unlike the Showgirl, brings some healing and defence to a crew which needs it, at least more than they need the distraction and schemes which are the Showgirls main schtick.

This is also my main disappointment with Smuggler Colette. While she introduces new play and threat vectors she only really buffs Mechanical Doves in her keyword. The Showgirl sees nothing, nor do the even less desirable (and more costly) Ice Dancers. So Smuggler Colette crews are, fore all intents and purposes, identical to OG-Colette's, which I feel was an opportunity missed. 

The Showgirl is not awful, but in a crew which runs on a razors edge (I find that the Performers played well are very powerful, but if played incorrectly useless), with many useful models that do much of what the Showgirls does, but better, that she simply rarely makes the cut except as a cheap, living Magical Training bearer with a little synergy and utility.   

[Jordon]

I suppose they are one of the only in keyword options for Magical Training. However, once again, I look to the Saboteur who is equally as good. You loose out on manipulative but gain disguised. 

It's just with the new models, these subpar models get tougher and tougher to hire. Now we have showgirls competing with Dorian. Now he's offering something different than a showgirl, but he's really offering a lot for just 2 more stones. 

I'm not sure what I'd change on them to make them more appealing. I'd really want them to have more of a defined role aside from arcane reservoir caddy. Or to offer more to the crew itself. Maybe using distracted in more interesting ways instead of defence or the very rare damage boost. 

 

[Plaag]

both saboteur and showgirl are useless

[dancater]

8 hours ago, Jordon said:

Now we have showgirls competing with Dorian. Now he's offering something different than a showgirl, but he's really offering a lot for just 2 more stones. 

As a Enforcer Dorian really competes more with Harata at 9SS and Angelica at 7SS, especially Angelica than he does the sub 6SS minions. But I do agree he is a good model that further tightens the soul stone crunch, 50SS only goes so far.

8 hours ago, Jordon said:

I'd really want them to have more of a defined role aside from arcane reservoir caddy.

But, lets be honest this is a damn big reason for taking a cheap Arcanist minion in any list.

8 hours ago, Jordon said:

I look to the Saboteur who is equally as good. You loose out on manipulative but gain disguised. 

Yeah, this is a tough call, I probably marginally prefer the Showgirl in a Performer crew, I like Manipulative and Celebrity better than Set Up For Success and Disguised. Also the Showgirl does have Performer synergy, whereas the Saboteur does not. Although in a scheme heavy pool, which ironically is the preferred Performer pool, the Saboteur brings good anti-scheme tech as well with Arson and Sabotage Their Plans. 

To be honest I can see both being occasionally useful outside of Magical Training caddy, so its choose as you prefer. You can't expect to much out of the 4-5SS bracket in terms of reliable game impact, and I'm fine with that. But at 5SS I do wish the Showgirl brought a little bit more, or better a little something different. 

But at 5SS I do almost feel like they are a +1SS tax on Magical Training for a model which would probably only be worth 4SS otherwise. Still is I was going to vigorously demand a Performer rework then I think the Ice Dancer, at a SS more than the Showgirl has no place in Performers, and not much of a place, if any, in Raspy's Frozen Heart. 

[HomelessOne]

10 hours ago, dancater said:

This is also my main disappointment with Smuggler Colette. While she introduces new play and threat vectors she only really buffs Mechanical Doves in her keyword. The Showgirl sees nothing, nor do the even less desirable (and more costly) Ice Dancers. So Smuggler Colette crews are, fore all intents and purposes, identical to OG-Colette's, which I feel was an opportunity missed.

I am curious what could've been done here to satisfy this without just buffing the Performer models already being run. You could restrict an ability or action to "friendly Performer minion" but that does feel more like forcing you to play certain models rather than encouraging use of under-used models.

[dancater]

10 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

I am curious what could've been done here to satisfy this without just buffing the Performer models already being run.

I haven't given it huge thought to be honest, more trying to parse the new rules than imagine what is missing. But for a number of the revealed masters Wyrd has done an excellent job of changing the way they play and incorporating more rarely seen keyword models, it is therefore notable that Smuggler Colette did not really address the weaker crew choices in her keyword. How they could have done it is debatable, I've certainly been surprised by how this has been achieved in some lists.

 

[Adran]

7 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

I am curious what could've been done here to satisfy this without just buffing the Performer models already being run. You could restrict an ability or action to "friendly Performer minion" but that does feel more like forcing you to play certain models rather than encouraging use of under-used models.

Its possible that you can "boost" what a model does, and in some ways I think that is what Dorian does. He makes distracted a better condition to hand out. You could look at Semus Aka Sebatian Baker with urban legend, or Youko Unseen with Whispered lies as ways to make distracted better as well. The Showgirls are probably the best performers to hand out distracted, so that aproach could have worked. Also an ability to make a model take an interact action would also have helped Showgirls more than other performers, at least in raw efficiency

[Jordon]

I think if they had a demise that allowed them to perform an interact action, I would be satisfied. Then I wouldn't be as bothered to play them more forward as they'd likely get a chance to do what you hire them to do before their inevitable death. 

Alternatively giving them built in suits versus distracted models would also be a really nice boost. 

Oh one other thing that has always bothered me about showgirls is the Expensive Gift trigger on seduction. It really bothers me that you can't draw a card when you force them to discard. I've never had my opponent give me a soul stone ever. It's already hard enough targeting a soul stone user, but to then get this trigger AND have them choose a soul stone is just not happening. Besides Celebrity is just a better version of seduction at a slightly reduced range. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 hours ago, Adran said:

Its possible that you can "boost" what a model does, and in some ways I think that is what Dorian does. He makes distracted a better condition to hand out. You could look at Semus Aka Sebatian Baker with urban legend, or Youko Unseen with Whispered lies as ways to make distracted better as well. The Showgirls are probably the best performers to hand out distracted, so that aproach could have worked. Also an ability to make a model take an interact action would also have helped Showgirls more than other performers, at least in raw efficiency

One issue is that I don't think it works out very well still.

For instance, Seamus buffs distracted, but still works better with Yin + Dead Rider than most of the keyword I feel. Yin can do 12 damage on minimum damage in an activation (2 yin attacks, 2 seamus attacks, 4 distracted pings) if in Sybelle's aura.

So I worry the same would happen here. There's only so much you can do to buff an underperforming model through text on another model's card.

[DuBlanck]

On 9/15/2021 at 3:05 PM, Jordon said:

I think if they had a demise that allowed them to perform an interact action... Alternatively giving them built in suits versus distracted models

I like both of these options - probably more the former than the latter, since my experience was that they get killed off the board before doing useful things.

The Distracted = Suits idea also puts their melee damage output somewhere between respectable and ridiculous with the Unexpected Ferocity trigger (adds damage equal to Distracted). Free Tomes seems fine though?

Unrelated, thematically odd that they have only Attack actions.

[kodenameV]

I've only played my Mr. Cooper crew a couple times, but I found them to be pretty handy in combination with the mannequins, and especially the coryphee, by giving those things extra movement. Also, handing out conditions is always cool! Granted, my opponent and I were both pretty new to the game, relatively speaking.

[AllistorPreist]

Keep in mind, I have only had a few games in the 3.0 world. No matter how hard I try and include them they are always just not quite what I need for the cost. Like if lure had a built in book or seduction was stat 6. I need to try them out more, but they feel just a little short of my other choices. 

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, AllistorPreist said:

Keep in mind, I have only had a few games in the 3.0 world. No matter how hard I try and include them they are always just not quite what I need for the cost. Like if lure had a built in book or seduction was stat 6. I need to try them out more, but they feel just a little short of my other choices. 

they are just useless

look at rotten belle and u will see what dancer colette need))

also resers can give gst with great bonus action, but in arcanists we have no bonuses on upgrades