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Seamus, AKA Sebastian Baker


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Personally I think it's incredibly thematic. You're alone in the dark with one of the most evil beings Malifaux has to offer. Your extra gimmicks aren't gonna save you. Also there are plenty of abilities that just specify a range versus an aura. We are legion comes to mind. 

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34 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

This seems to be the least broken way to play it. The Aura still exits, but cannot affect any model that is within Alone in the Dark range. 

I feel like they forgot an 'other' in action. "Ignore and ignored by 'other' enemy auras". Maybe I'm wrong though. 

An enemy model would still be able to benefit from its own Aura that checks for models in range, like Violation of Reality, if it was limited to other enemy Auras. In which case you would only need the “ignored by”.

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1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

His summons are incidental - sure first turn summon a Doxy, maybe second turn something else, but after that only if you really need to do it to win the game. Otherwise I think his actions will be better spent elsewhere. 

I don't know. It's 1 Ap. Unless you really need something dead this activation it seems worthwhile. A summoned Belle can potentially let Seamus attack 3, or even more, times.

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17 minutes ago, touchdown said:

Yeah I think you want to summon turns 1-3 almost every game

Turn 4, maybe 5 in certain Schemes or if you expect certain Strats are as yet unrevealed.

While summons can't easily score points, Lure and Take By The Hand can position/deposition a model that can score, and Mourn The Dead and Proper Murder Mystery can get around the inability to interact. And as l but Lure are bonus actions, they have the ability to walk before doing so, extending the range.

Which in some circumstances is going to be worth a single AP.

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The cost of summoning is pretty high, though.

Either stabbing your own models (2 health and a card for the crow), a corpse (hire a corpse maker and provide a 10+ of crows, so probably a stone and a card), etc. The whisper does make it a little easier sometimes, but you can't amputate and summons from the whisper easily.

So I think like McMourning 2, the summoning may be more trouble than it is worth many games (particularly past turn 1).

On leylines, etc, it'll probably still be worthwhile having more strategy a relevant AP.

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2 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

I feel like they forgot an 'other' in action. "Ignore and ignored by 'other' enemy auras". Maybe I'm wrong though. 

Resser cards and other, man :P

But yeah I'm not sure how alone in the dark means you can't see or consider yourself

 

As for how alone in the dark works, I chatted with wulf about it and he responded with stuff like scamper doesnt work, and 

"They ignore all friendly auras. So they cant benifit from any friendly aura whilst in seamus' aura. Can't use unionised, gremlin general etc

They are ignored by all friendly auras so other models cant benifit from them being inside their aura
Wouldnt count for bayou bash, or soulstone cache.

The auras arent being turned off though so gremlin general could buff a model that is outside of seamus' aura if lenny was in it, lenny ignores the aura but still has it." And that makes sense to me

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44 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The cost of summoning is pretty high, though.

Either stabbing your own models (2 health and a card for the crow), a corpse (hire a corpse maker and provide a 10+ of crows, so probably a stone and a card), etc. The whisper does make it a little easier sometimes, but you can't amputate and summons from the whisper easily.

I think getting a fresh corpse shouldn't be hard, from killing, bringing a model that makes them, or your opponent killing something.  If you're making the 6+ attacks at turn with Seamus you want to be making, you should be hitting a couple Amputation triggers purely by accident. An Unsuited 10, a moderate, gets you a Belle.

I think the biggest issue I see is that you might have to burn a soulstone on a "stale" corpse, if you want Seamus activating early in the turn to get his aura up sooner.

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6 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I think getting a fresh corpse shouldn't be hard, from killing, bringing a model that makes them, or your opponent killing something.  If you're making the 6+ attacks at turn with Seamus you want to be making, you should be hitting a couple Amputation triggers purely by accident. An Unsuited 10, a moderate, gets you a Belle.

I think the biggest issue I see is that you might have to burn a soulstone on a "stale" corpse, if you want Seamus activating early in the turn to get his aura up sooner.

Note none of those corpses that drop outside his activation provide the bonus, but yeah, incidental corpses are probably the way to go.

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[quote] This seems to be the least broken way to play it. The Aura still exits, but cannot affect any model that is within Alone in the Dark range. 

I feel like they forgot an 'other' in action. "Ignore and ignored by 'other' enemy auras". Maybe I'm wrong though. [/quote] 

 

Not necessary. "Other" would mean "other than AitD" in their usual rules lingo, and AitD is already not included due to 'enemy aura'. 

Generally speaking: I see why they've wrote the aura as they did, but it's very confusing to read for sure.

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17 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Note none of those corpses that drop outside his activation provide the bonus, but yeah, incidental corpses are probably the way to go.

Thanks! For some reason I read it as "if the target was dropped this turn" instead of "this activation".

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11 minutes ago, Graf said:

 

Not necessary. "Other" would mean "other than AitD" in their usual rules lingo, and AitD is already not included due to 'enemy aura'. 

Generally speaking: I see why they've wrote the aura as they did, but it's very confusing to read for sure.

aitD?

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5 hours ago, fire5tone said:

The auras arent being turned off though so gremlin general could buff a model that is outside of seamus' aura if lenny was in it, lenny ignores the aura but still has it." And that makes sense to me

My issue with this interpretation of the ability is that AitD specifies that models "ignore and are ignored by all enemy :aura" When people are saying that auras don't turn off near Seamus, I haven't seen anyone specify what it means to ignore an aura and how that differs from being ignored by the aura.

For example (Bolds added for emphasis), Gremlin General: Friendly Big Hat models within :aura8 receive +1 to duels performed outside of their Activation." If a Bayou Gremlin is near Seamus it is Ignored by the aura and doesn't get the bonus. If Lenny is near Seamus, he is Ignored by his own aura and doesn't get the benefit. If that's the case, then what does Ignore friendly auras mean?

The way I see it, the Insignificant ability actually does a really good job of showing how things are ignored. A model with Insignificant is Ignored by all schemes and strategies. This makes it so the model counts as not existing to those schemes and strategies. The strategies and schemes don't "see" the model when determining any effects.

On the flip side, some abilities allow models to Ignore Insignificant. When a model Ignores Insignificant, it blanks out the ability. It's as if the model did not have Insignificant printed on its card.

By that logic, a model near Seamus is Ignored by friendly auras, meaning that the auras do not count the model as existing and therefore cannot effect the model or count the model towards any "count the models in range" effects. Additionally, a model near Seamus Ignores its auras, meaning that they are blanked out as if they weren't printed on the card.

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4 minutes ago, Rufess said:

If a model ignoring auras of itself means the model loses auras on its card, then what happens if both players playing Seamus2 and standing within 6" of each other with the Alone in the Dark aura activated?

Haha I have wondered about that as well. No idea how that resolves.

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54 minutes ago, Deathinabox said:

 

On the flip side, some abilities allow models to Ignore Insignificant. When a model Ignores Insignificant, it blanks out the ability. It's as if the model did not have Insignificant printed on its card.

Certainly, and thats what I still sorta believe, (I even mentioned insignificant in this thread) I simply don't have the care (or ability) to argue on that one convincingly, but I find myself largely alright with wulf's interpretation listed

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32 minutes ago, touchdown said:

I believe active player resolves first. So it would ping pong back and forth. Sounds fun actually :D

I didn't think about Active Player resolution. I think this is mostly correct. However, consider the following: Seamus A and B both have the aura up. Player A is the active player. Seamus A removes Seamus B's aura. Player B becomes the active player but Seamus B does not currently have an aura and therefore has nothing to resolve. However, if Seamus B exits Seamus A's aura in any way, even for an instant, Seamus B has an aura again and can turn off Seamus A's aura. You basically end up with a minigame of breaking range or LOS between the Seamuses by pushing them into and out of range and by pushing models between them to break LOS. Sounds like a blast!😄

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21 minutes ago, Deathinabox said:

I didn't think about Active Player resolution. I think this is mostly correct. However, consider the following: Seamus A and B both have the aura up. Player A is the active player. Seamus A removes Seamus B's aura. Player B becomes the active player but Seamus B does not currently have an aura and therefore has nothing to resolve. However, if Seamus B exits Seamus A's aura in any way, even for an instant, Seamus B has an aura again and can turn off Seamus A's aura. You basically end up with a minigame of breaking range or LOS between the Seamuses by pushing them into and out of range and by pushing models between them to break LOS. Sounds like a blast!😄

I'm pretty sure it just ping pongs but that would be really fun

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The situation is funny enough, but I don't think Along in the Dark aura would completely remove any aura ability within range. Because A) the two AitD situation, and B) there are some abilities in the game have multiple effects while aura is only part of it, like the Surplus of Life ability of Jedza2 or Lost in the Moment ability of Tara2, and ignoring the whole ability just because part of it contains an aura effect could break the game.

There is a guideline in the rule sub-forum, and the first rule is

Quote
  • Constructively:  Where there are several ways to interpret the rules; the one that doesn't break the rest of the game will be right.

 

IMO the AitD does the following:

  1. Ignore enemy aura: Prevents enemy from gaining benefit directly from enemy aura: Enemy Bayou Gremlin within range cannot gain the +1 bonus from Gremlin General.
  2. Ignored by enemy aura: Prevents enemy from counting toward enemy aura: Enemy Bayou Gremlin within range does not count for Bayou Bash ability on other models outside of range.

And it does not stop enemy using any ability with aura, as long as the ability does not work against the above 2 points. Enemy can still heal with Life Leech ability, can still push with Scamper ability, can still affect other models with aura like Boring Conversation or AitD.

Edited by Rufess
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Just played a game with Seamus 2.

Some thoughts...

He is a lot weaker when the opponent builds for Seamus 2 instead of Seamus 1, so you really have to lean into the title advantage.

The 'bubble of death' take is probably not a good one. It is just not strong enough. Seamus' AP feels pretty weak/unimpactful (and even the distraction aura isn't doing THAT much damage). It also is all-in on the distraction plan - if you face a crew that can handle distracted, it becomes pretty weak.

Right, so what are the upsides? The summoning was more potent than I expected. These are some of the tankiest summons in the game (outside of Cadmus or similar level), so this crew can just really bog down a game. I think the correct builds will just seek to bog down the game rather than create a bubble of death (which incidentally also just dies to Pale Rider ;P)

My corrupted leylines list was:

  • Dead Rider
  • Sybelle
  • Jaakuna (doesn't quite offer enough, but is almost good enough)
  • Some Belles
  • A doxy w/ GST
  • Only 3 stones (definitely not enough).

He beat Seamus down to 5 health on turn 1 which was really bad with an executioner alpha strike. Kinda recovered but not really.

Seamus is just too squishy to be near enemies that aren't fully bogged down by models and distracted, so can't really play aggressive. He can kinda claim territory, but I'm not sure the bubble is lethal enough to really claim territory. It's great at body blocking chokepoints though.

EDIT: Not sure when you would take this Seamus over McMourning 2, but maybe that's a separate issue.

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4 hours ago, Rufess said:

If a model ignoring auras of itself means the model loses auras on its card, then what happens if both players playing Seamus2 and standing within 6" of each other with the Alone in the Dark aura activated?

I don't think a model ignoring auras is incapable of generating an aura, they just aren't effected by it. So 2 Semus both with Alone in the dark is just Both Seamus ignoring any friendly auras to them.

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12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just played a game with Seamus 2.

Some thoughts...

....He is a lot weaker when the opponent builds for Seamus 2 instead of Seamus 1, so you really have to lean into the title advantage.

My corrupted leylines list was:

  • Dead Rider
  • Sybelle
  • Jaakuna (doesn't quite offer enough, but is almost good enough)
  • Some Belles
  • A doxy w/ GST
  • Only 3 stones (definitely not enough).

He beat Seamus down to 5 health on turn 1 which was really bad with an executioner alpha strike. Kinda recovered but not really.

Seamus is just too squishy to be near enemies that aren't fully bogged down by models and distracted, so can't really play aggressive. He can kinda claim territory, but I'm not sure the bubble is lethal enough to really claim territory. It's great at body blocking chokepoints though.

EDIT: Not sure when you would take this Seamus over McMourning 2, but maybe that's a separate issue.

Well, any master can be built against. I'm not sure Jaakuna brings enough for 8ss. I'd rather bring the White Hat Co. for the hats to help block dmg. I think the biggest negative in keyword is healing, so bringing something to help with that is pretty important imo. Sybelle's little incidental heal is too weak. Card draw is missing too.

With his models being relatively cheaper, I do see him bringing more models to help clog things up and give out distracted/ping damage. 

Were you at least able to kill the executioner in return? With Sybelle and Seamus' aura's up to give Distracted and 1 dmg every time a bell moves it (and at a neg wp if you move someone in) you should have gotten some free attacks. Not sure who you were facing and deployments (wedge doesn't leave much time to get prepped). And how are they handling distracted? I find once you stack 3-4 Distracted on a model it has a real hard time interacting with you. Condition removal or something else?

I don't think he's going to necessarily be 'easy' to learn, but I do think he will be fun. It seems like activation order on him and sybelle are tricky. Both are beater-esque models, which like to activate later, but they both have aura's that need to go up early in the turn. I'm also not sure he's great for Leylines. I want his models using their movement tricks on enemy models whenever possible, not friendly. 

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