Seamus, AKA Sebastian Baker

[Thatguy]

Yeah. I should have been more clear. 

You'd still need a crow, but it could be a low one. And to put ~ 2 wounds and distracted on a friendly model. And a Master ap... Unless you've got a good target, it might just be easier to burn the stone or find another source of corpses.

I like Seamus's summoning. Unsuited +4 makes it one of the easiest to get off. 

[Arlos896]

So the alone in the dark trigger, someone earlier mentioned it shuts down scamper. Does it also shut down things like Dark Deception on Ivan and Ice Mirror and  Ice Shield on Rasputina? Guess I am unsure of what kinds of auras he shuts down. 

[Graf]

19 minutes ago, Arlos896 said:

So the alone in the dark trigger, someone earlier mentioned it shuts down scamper. Does it also shut down things like Dark Deception on Ivan and Ice Mirror and  Ice Shield on Rasputina? Guess I am unsure of what kinds of auras he shuts down. 

First: It must be an enemy aura

Second: you mast have a (or multiple) model within range (which excludes Ice Mirror, as it deals with markers not models, same with Ivan) 

Third: all affected enemy models don't gain any benefit from enemy auras (no matter if the origin is within Seamus' range) and are ignored for any other effects the aura might have. 

Imagine sth. like "heal X where X is the number of models in aura range", it would still work but you wouldn't count models in Seamus aura. 

[Arlos896]

3 minutes ago, Graf said:

First: It must be an enemy aura

Second: you mast have a (or multiple) model within range (which excludes Ice Mirror, as it deals with markers not models, same with Ivan) 

Third: all affected enemy models don't gain any benefit from enemy auras (no matter if the origin is within Seamus' range) and are ignored for any other effects the aura might have. 

Imagine sth. like "heal X where X is the number of models in aura range", it would still work but you wouldn't count models in Seamus aura. 

So what if Ivan or Rasputina are within the aura? They are technically benefiting from their own aura correct? As they would have to ignore their own aura from the trigger and if they ignore that then they can't determine if there is a marker in range. I understand I might be reaching but just want to be sure I got this correct before playing with it. 

[Graf]

If they are within Seamus' aura, I agree they won't be able to make use of their own aura.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

3 hours ago, Graf said:

If they are within Seamus' aura, I agree they won't be able to make use of their own aura.

Ignoring an Aura would be like an Ashigaru ignoring Toshiro’s Leadership since the Ashigaru is affected by the Aura. I don’t think a model can ignore an Aura which doesn’t affect them. So Rasputina and Ivan still create the Aura for the effect, but Seamus’s Aura shutdown does nothing because their Auras affect markers.

Edit: Maybe a better example would be Asami ignoring her Charge Aura, since she is affected by it herself when Charging.

Would being in Seamus’s Aura actually make something like Ice Mirror unlimited range? Raspy ignoring the Aura would make the ability have no range check, right?

[Arlos896]

I would agree except it says, when this model suffers damage it may remove specified marker within aura 2. It is benefiting from it's own aura, and alone in the dark says ignore ALL enemy auras which includes their own. That's my hang up with it. 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

2 hours ago, Arlos896 said:

I would agree except it says, when this model suffers damage it may remove specified marker within aura 2. It is benefiting from it's own aura, and alone in the dark says ignore ALL enemy auras which includes their own. That's my hang up with it. 

It isn’t as clear as I first thought now. In my mind, all enemy Auras become “Pulses” (not an actual Pulse) and enemy models ignore “Pulses” generated by other enemy models. However, I can see multiple ways to read the ability now… another one for the FAQ I suppose.

[Maniacal_cackle]

It just says "ignored by all enemy ", which to me says that you basically are treated as not being in the aura if you're a model. So I think Raspy/Ivan would still work, since it doesn't matter if the models themselves are in the aura. It doesn't say that you can't benefit from the aura. Also not sure it shuts down scamper.

7 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Yeah. I should have been more clear. 

You'd still need a crow, but it could be a low one. And to put ~ 2 wounds and distracted on a friendly model. And a Master ap... Unless you've got a good target, it might just be easier to burn the stone or find another source of corpses.

I like Seamus's summoning. Unsuited +4 makes it one of the easiest to get off. 

I think the most common case of amputating a friendly for summoning will be turn 1, when you can set it up to charge an ally and gain movement and a corpse in the same action.

Later on, it'll be more a situational thing (lucky amputation, or you have a moderate crow you can trade up, or a kill).

6 hours ago, aquenaton said:

I find quite amusing that, right now, when announcing Seamus, it is really hard to tech against. As regular Seamus is a very independent master, that tends to bring a very OOK crew, with mobility and diverse, you cannot be ready to face him and ALSO a redchapell crew, with most models forming a strong bubble and bringing people into the party to desmember one by one. If you bring many shockwaves, the OG Seamus all-stars will not suffer about it at all

I think this was inevitable for Seamus & Ivan and similar masters. Masters that completely warp how you have to build your list had a high likelihood of being extremely good at the title game.

This Seamus benefits massively from people building like they're facing Seamus 1, I think.

[Deathinabox]

So this is what forums are for. I came in thinking new Seamus was awful and added nothing to the game. Now I'm pretty convinced that he has a place and I'm excited to try him out. Thank you guys!

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Deathinabox said:

So this is what forums are for. I came in thinking new Seamus was awful and added nothing to the game. Now I'm pretty convinced that he has a place and I'm excited to try him out. Thank you guys!

Yeah, I initially wasn't sold, but it seems like one of the most powerful bubble crews available to Ressers.

And you can't just shoot down the master to break the bubble, cuz the master has stealth!!!

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also I've always thought that triple belle is REALLY powerful, but just didn't quite fit into any crew (15 stones for Seamus, or 18 stones for Molly).

Now here's a crew that will regularly do triple Belle! Wouldn't be surprised if this crew starts with like 2 belles, one doxy, summons a third belle for the full pack. Maybe 2 doxies, but then your summons may be a bit funky.

[Deathinabox]

Yin and jakuna both seem like they'll be great with Sebastian. They both have a bunch of ways to move models around and terrifying and serene are really good defensive abilities in the crew

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, Deathinabox said:

Yin and jakuna both seem like they'll be great with Sebastian. They both have a bunch of ways to move models around and terrifying and serene are really good defensive abilities in the crew

Yeah, was just thinking about how much Jaakunas hazardous adds to the crew!

Didn't even think about him, but seems solid.

[Graf]

21 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

In my mind, all enemy Auras become “Pulses” (not an actual Pulse)

I don't know where you read that in Seamus' ability.

 

19 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It just says "ignored by all enemy ", which to me says that you basically are treated as not being in the aura if you're a model. So I think Raspy/Ivan would still work, since it doesn't matter if the models themselves are in the aura. It doesn't say that you can't benefit from the aura.

When I look at Seamus ability in the context of e.g. Rasputina being in range, it would say: "Until the End Pase, Rasputina ignores Ice Mirror".

Ergo: No Ice Mirror for her.

[fire5tone]

1 hour ago, Graf said:

 

When I look at Seamus ability in the context of e.g. Rasputina being in range, it would say: "Until the End Pase, Rasputina ignores Ice Mirror".

Ergo: No Ice Mirror for her.

Yeah it's ignored *and* ignore all enemy auras, meaning it straight deletes all enemy auras in it 

What I'm unsure of is if it blocks auras going out, so does somer 2 just have no front of card at all in that bubble (eg would work together would ya still work elsewhere if he's in it, amusingly, that ability has 3 spots it could break, 1 from somer, 1 from the model taking the action, and 1 from the model getting slow)

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 hour ago, Graf said:

I don't know where you read that in Seamus' ability.

 

When I look at Seamus ability in the context of e.g. Rasputina being in range, it would say: "Until the End Pase, Rasputina ignores Ice Mirror".

Ergo: No Ice Mirror for her.

A Pulse is essentially an Aura that the model producing ignores... so exactly what Seamus's rule is saying when I read it. Seamus does not say "enemy models ignore abilities which produce an Aura", it just says "enemy models ignore Auras". An important caveat to this is: Auras still exist. Models just do not gain any effects from the Aura because they essentially do not exist within range of the Aura while within range of Seamus. Ice Mirror does not grant an effect from the Aura, it imposes a range limitation on targeting an Ice Pillar. If you ignore the Aura, Ice Mirror technically gets unlimited range (probably a stretch, but I can see argument for/against) since there is no range for targeting an Ice Pillar anymore. Seems broken to me, so I think that Auras which are ONLY imposing a range limitation on checks for objects other than a model, ie terrain or marker, for the effect's resolution can be ignored for Seamus's purposes. In contrast, Reva Luminary's Enkindle the Cult is affected by Seamus since it is targeting models. Seamus would force Reva to ignore friendly models within range of Seamus, but I don't see why you cannot kill a model outside of Seamus's Aura.

Again going to Asami's Violation of Reality; she would ignore her own Aura, if within range of Seamus, because it checks her model's position within the Aura for the effect. Violation of Reality still produces an Aura, and should resolve on other models outside of Seamus's Aura. Ice Mirror, and equivalent abilities, do not ever check the producing model's position in relation to the Aura for the effect to resolve, they are essentially "Pulses" outside of Ivan standing perfectly overlapping a shadow marker (or other masters overlapping other non-impassable markers).

[fire5tone]

39 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Seamus would force Reva to ignore friendly models within range of Seamus, but I don't see why you cannot kill a model outside of Seamus's Aura.

 

the issue here is that it specifically says they are ignored by enemy auras. and ignore all enemy auras, so i believe that its fully shut off if reva is in range.

as for the ice mirror example you arent stopping the abilities the moment an aura is mentioned, your completely canceling its effects, its kinda like insignificant 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

25 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

the issue here is that it specifically says they are ignored by enemy auras. and ignore all enemy auras, so i believe that its fully shut off if reva is in range.

as for the ice mirror example you arent stopping the abilities the moment an aura is mentioned, your completely canceling its effects, its kinda like insignificant 

To ignore an Aura would mean the Aura still exists, Seamus doesn’t stop effects from creating an Aura. Rethinking it based on your argument, the unlimited range on Raspy is probably too much of a stretch.  

I’m still not convinced that ignoring an Aura is the same as preventing the Aura from even existing, seems too powerful to kill all enemy Auras instead of stopping enemy models from counting as inside an enemy Aura.

[Graf]

Yes, the enemy aura still exists and isn't "shut down". Seamus just stops any interplay between enemy auras and models within Alone in the Dark range.

 

3 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Ice Mirror does not grant an effect from the Aura

That's where you are wrong imho. "When taking non- Actions, this model may draw LOS and range from Ice Pillar Markers [...]" is part of the effect and therefore ignored. You don't get to pick and choose and ignore only the range restriction of the aura when Raspy is within AitD range.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

18 minutes ago, Graf said:

Yes, the enemy aura still exists and isn't "shut down". Seamus just stops any interplay between enemy auras and models within Alone in the Dark range.

 

That's where you are wrong imho. "When taking non- Actions, this model may draw LOS and range from Ice Pillar Markers [...]" is part of the effect and therefore ignored. You don't get to pick and choose and ignore only the range restriction of the aura when Raspy is within AitD range.

Yea I agreed that the ignoring the range and performing the rest of the effect was a stretch.  However for Ice Mirror, or similar abilities that use markers vice models, the Aura still exists and the marker is not ignored due to Seamus. Seamus would have to prevent enemy model’s abilities/effects from resolving, which is far beyond ignoring or being ignored by an Aura during resolution imo, to stop marker based effects.

[Paddywhack]

On 9/10/2021 at 11:13 AM, Thatguy said:

I knew that much. I was more wondering if they would give an explanation for the -3Wp and +2Df in the fluff.

On 9/10/2021 at 10:55 AM, aquenaton said:

I think he has major impulse control problems, hence the lower WP.  But yes, Wp4 is going to hurt for a Master, but I love the Df6! That with Stealth and Talent Scout are pretty decent protection. Especially with all the movement tricks his keyword models can do to help get him out of a jam. And hey! He helps his keyword models be actually useful now. I'm looking forward to getting him on the table!

On 9/10/2021 at 10:13 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I wasn't initially that keen on this Seamus, but now wonder if it is one of our strongest bubble crews.

There's so many combos and ways to get lots of damage + distracted, can be very difficult to chew through this very tanky crew when you're on a bunch of distracted.

The auras and Talent Scout seem massive. I can see models just getting distraction-locked for an entire game (though note you still hit a reasonable number of attacks when on a minus).

Amputation not being built in seems like quite the issue, since the summons will be tricky. But 2 summons in a game may be plenty to get through the game.

Yes - Distracted is a such a huge negative and being able to ping for damage at the same time - yikes!

I think, as I often do, that thinking of him primarily as a summoner is where you go wrong. You want him getting his bubble up and getting in as many out of activation free attacks as you can. His summons are incidental - sure first turn summon a Doxy, maybe second turn something else, but after that only if you really need to do it to win the game. Otherwise I think his actions will be better spent elsewhere. 

Urban Legend with Alone in the Dark is really nasty.... 

[Paddywhack]

22 hours ago, Graf said:

Yes, the enemy aura still exists and isn't "shut down". Seamus just stops any interplay between enemy auras and models within Alone in the Dark range.

 

This seems to be the least broken way to play it. The Aura still exits, but cannot affect any model that is within Alone in the Dark range. 

I feel like they forgot an 'other' in action. "Ignore and ignored by 'other' enemy auras". Maybe I'm wrong though. 

[Arlos896]

Personally I think it's incredibly thematic. You're alone in the dark with one of the most evil beings Malifaux has to offer. Your extra gimmicks aren't gonna save you. Also there are plenty of abilities that just specify a range versus an aura. We are legion comes to mind. 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

34 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

This seems to be the least broken way to play it. The Aura still exits, but cannot affect any model that is within Alone in the Dark range. 

I feel like they forgot an 'other' in action. "Ignore and ignored by 'other' enemy auras". Maybe I'm wrong though. 

An enemy model would still be able to benefit from its own Aura that checks for models in range, like Violation of Reality, if it was limited to other enemy Auras. In which case you would only need the “ignored by”.