Marcus - Alpha- Thoughts?

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, extremor said:

Don’t get the 2 from Myranda… she gets one for free. But where does the second one come from? Even if she did get one from Marcus/Initiate she only gets one for free. 
 

I think I like Marcus running around in little packs. And Initiates I already love. 
BUT I’m afraid that his Neverborn side will be unnecessary to the max. Adaptive Evolution seems to be the key and with taxed in beasts… well…

Myranda can make another model discard with the tome trigger

[extremor]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Myranda can make another model discard with the tome trigger

Doesn’t the „once per activation“ phrase say: either „aspects of the wild“ and pass the upgrade on OR „flames of change“ and pass the upgrade on?? 
At least that’s how I read it… or is it once per activation & per model? 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

18 minutes ago, extremor said:

Doesn’t the „once per activation“ phrase say: either „aspects of the wild“ and pass the upgrade on OR „flames of change“ and pass the upgrade on?? 
At least that’s how I read it… or is it once per activation & per model? 

 

I think it is probably once per activation total, but...

Turn 1, Myranda gives herself an upgrade with her bonus action, then uses tome trigger to give someone else an upgrade.

The crew has 2 more upgrades after her activation turn 1 if you do it this way.

On future turns, she can discard an upgrade (giving it away) and create one for herself, so can net one extra upgrade (same as marcus/initiates).

[Maniacal_cackle]

So if you're maximising upgrade production with Myranda + Initiate + marcus, you should have 6 by end of turn 1 and 9 by end of turn 2 I think (and 10 is the limit, so you're basically capped at that point, although can still shuffle them around after that).

[Adran]

Totally agreeing with Maniacal cackle here. 

On turn 1 Myranda has 0 upgrades. She uses her aspects of the wild to gain an upgrade. +1 (no need to discard because she doesn't have 1)

She targets a model with an upgrade with her primal flame and uses a 6 to make them discard an upgrade and gain a new one. Since this is the first upgrade discarded this activation it will move to another model, so its +1 upgrade. 

At end of activation crew has +2 upgrades. 

3 hours ago, extremor said:

Doesn’t the „once per activation“ phrase say: either „aspects of the wild“ and pass the upgrade on OR „flames of change“ and pass the upgrade on?? 
At least that’s how I read it… or is it once per activation & per model? 

 

So whilst only 1 mutation discard per activation can cause a mutation to move, the above set up only causes 1 discard. From turn 2 onwards Myranda is only going to generate +1 upgrade (unless she doesn't have an upgrade on her for some reason) an activation. 

Aspects of the Wild allows you to generate Upgrades without having to discard upgrades (if you don't have any) so is the only new upgrade generation.

Upgrade cycling (Aspects of the wild if you have one already and Primal flame) when you have pack leader will allow upgrade generation because of the discarded upgrade still going to the crew. 

Upgrade discarding (Adaptive evolution and Creature of Cannogborg) is mitigated to cycling once per activation because of Pack leader.

 

[Barmution]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So if you're maximising upgrade production with Myranda + Initiate + marcus, you should have 6 by end of turn 1 and 9 by end of turn 2 I think (and 10 is the limit, so you're basically capped at that point, although can still shuffle them around after that).

If you're bringing Vasilisa/BBS/Doll then Vasi can use Pulling the Strings on an Initiate for even more upgrade cycling after she's done with the BBS (or if you didn't get the extra corpse marker needed t1).

[LexLock]

Is this version of Marcus busted? At what point does a beater become too fast/tanky/hitty and begin to warp the game? It'll be interesting to see people get some games in and see how Barkus works in practice.

[Maniacal_cackle]

14 minutes ago, LexLock said:

Is this version of Marcus busted? At what point does a beater become too fast/tanky/hitty and begin to warp the game? It'll be interesting to see people get some games in and see how Barkus works in practice.

I think he looks quite busted, but he has difficulty getting lots of positives to damage flips, so often is doing 2 damage on hits.

[extremor]

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think he looks quite busted, but he has difficulty getting lots of positives to damage flips, so often is doing 2 damage on hits.

And on top of that you have to either bubble up (and get vulnerable to blasts etc) or get 4 upgrades on Marcus (which can be realized turn 3+) but leaves the other beasts too easy to kill. But that’s theory faux. We will see if he and/or the other titles are busted… I really hope not. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

In some ways I think he is more like Zipp - you throw him into the enemy crew to slow them down/disrupt.

If they try to kill him, great, it will probably take a lot of resources. But more likely they'll try to get on with their day and go win the game around him.

Of course, this Marcus can interact... He seems wildly powerful on symbols, for example...

[Thatguy]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

In some ways I think he is more like Zipp - you throw him into the enemy crew to slow them down/disrupt.

If they try to kill him, great, it will probably take a lot of resources. But more likely they'll try to get on with their day and go win the game around him.

I agree. With Camoflage and Feathered Wings he's damn near untouchable and puts a big annoying piece of area terrain in the middle of thier crew. 

And even with just two upgrades he hits pretty hard. And will continue to get more agressive as he stacks upgrades and gets stuff like puncture, charge through and Onslaught. 

3 hours ago, extremor said:

get 4 upgrades on Marcus (which can be realized turn 3+) 

I think I'd do it turn 1. And then let the opponent deal with charged up Marcus from turn 1, while the rest is the crew wanders towards objectives. 

 

[Barmution]

5 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I think I'd do it turn 1. And then let the opponent deal with charged up Marcus from turn 1, while the rest is the crew wanders towards objectives. 

You can't. Pack Leader explicitly only allows a model to attach a single model per turn through that ability.

[Thatguy]

3 minutes ago, Barmution said:

You can't. Pack Leader explicitly only allows a model to attach a single model per turn through that ability. 

You're right. My mistake. 

3 upgrades Turn 1 is still pretty good. An armored, disguised, stealthy, butterfly jumping Marcus in the enemy crew turn one will still be a huge disruption. 

[Adran]

3 hours ago, extremor said:

And on top of that you have to either bubble up (and get vulnerable to blasts etc) or get 4 upgrades on Marcus (which can be realized turn 3+) but leaves the other beasts too easy to kill. But that’s theory faux. We will see if he and/or the other titles are busted… I really hope not. 

I'm not sure if 4 upgrades on Marcus is really the best idea - that's a lot tied up in just 1 model. But I haven't tried. I'm sure that sometimes its useful. 1 thing I think is important with this title is that you value aggressive upgrades differently to defensive upgrades. You actively want to discard the aggressive upgrades in your turn once you've used them, so other models also get to use them. You probably want Camoflage and plates stuck in place, but the more people that get to use Horns, Wings and Teeth each turn the better. (Although butterfly jump on the wings might mean it doesn't get moved around as much)

 

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

You're right. My mistake. 

3 upgrades Turn 1 is still pretty good. An armored, disguised, stealthy, butterfly jumping Marcus in the enemy crew turn one will still be a huge disruption. 

I can't see a way to get Marcus past 2 upgardes on turn 1. 

[Thatguy]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I can't see a way to get Marcus past 2 upgardes on turn 1. 

You're right. For some reason I thought Myranda let you get up to Three. 

Man, New Markus just keeps getting worse. Lol

 

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I'm not sure if 4 upgrades on Marcus is really the best idea - that's a lot tied up in just 1 model. But I haven't tried. I'm sure that sometimes its useful

I think, with a couple upgrades, Barkus is the most defensive model in the game. Stealth and Butterfly jump is an amazing combo. On top of having Disguised and Gravity Well and a severe terrain aura, even fast beaters like Lady J aren't going to be able to take more than one swing a turn. 

Which I guess isn't too say that it's a good investment. But it's a pretty safe one.

[SEV]

7 hours ago, LexLock said:

Is this version of Marcus busted? At what point does a beater become too fast/tanky/hitty and begin to warp the game? It'll be interesting to see people get some games in and see how Barkus works in practice.

 I only play to game with him yet (one win and one lost both again better player than me). Here's my tough on Barkus.

1) he's definitely better than OG Marcus. You're missing a bit of card draw but you gain raw efficiency and power.

2) He's not OP but definitely a tournament quality master. He's vulnerable to stun (2/4/6 no trigger is not super good and he really want his bonus action so it's basically-1 ap). You have less leeway with your upgrade in this crew and upgrade management is the name of the game. His crew is still squesshy and you need to operate in small bubble of 2 to 3 models for upgrade efficiency wich is easy to disrupt.

3) you need Initiate (at least one, but honestly i think 2 are needed if you want enough upgrade t1) and Myranda. So you have less flex spot. You probably at least want an other beast, ideally with adaptive evolution, to pass upgrade. So NB beast are significantly worst and you don't have a lot of flex spot (especially since you have to pay the taxes on OOk beast). You probably also want 2x AP to a) compensate for the lack of card draw and b) win initiative so your huge beating master can go and delete a key piece if needed... All that doesn't left a lot of room to adapt your crew... Like fitting the BBS - Vasi combo will be hard (I have yet to try it with Barkus). 

4) I tried the Emissary in both game and it was fine, but the combo with Barcus aura doesn't make him much better (just a little, but I wouldn't take him just for that).

5) I think the play style is fast agrro (like Nekima). Marcus can hold is ground alone and than you operate with mini bubbles of 2 chimera models (including at least one initiate myranda). The keyword is not super durable so you can't engage in a trench war but Marcus is tough (especially with Myranda support) and he can act as a tarpit... But I don't think it's the best use for him. Noted. After T1 I much rather leap than use the bonus to attach a new upgrade, So I don't count Marcus as a reliable source to pass upgrade. 

I definitely enjoyed to play him (much more than OG Marcus) and I definitely think he's tournament worthy.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@SEV interesting. Why did you feel one initiate and myranda wasn't enough upgrades turn 1?

2 initiates and myranda are 8 upgrades turn one, which seems like overkill to me.

I also wonder if this Marcus just mostly ignores beasts and spends maybe 20 stones on keyword and beasts and the rest is flex slots.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another thought is I tend to cap out at about one upgrade per model for most of my crew with Marcus one (cojo is worth two upgrades, but Cerberus usually one get one).

That seems like it'd be even more the case here, so having models that are happy with one upgrade seems good (Cerberus, grootslang, bandy, Scorpius, etc).

Upgrade passing seems like it is more trouble than it is worth after turn 1 (other than maybe a turn 2 special delivery to get Marcus up to 3). The juggling back and forth for adaptive evolution seems like it has too big an opportunity cost (Marcus likes to spread out).

Just my initial impression of course!

[SEV]

26 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@SEV interesting. Why did you feel one initiate and myranda wasn't enough upgrades turn 1?

2 initiates and myranda are 8 upgrades turn one, which seems like overkill to me.

I also wonder if this Marcus just mostly ignores beasts and spends maybe 20 stones on keyword and beasts and the rest is flex slots.

Well it's 8 upgrade if you abuse myranda tome trigger (so you need the tome and /or use stone and also spend Myranda activationdoing nothing)... it's most likely 2 from Barkus, 2 from OI and 1 to 3 from Myranda. Marcus needs his 2 upgrade as does Myranda. The initiates will have one each, so you have 2 upgrade to spear. So probably one one on a beast and one on the rabbit...

I much prefer a second initiate than spending Myranda t1 activation doing nothing and burning stone. 

Than I really think that you want 2 initiate to be paired with an other beast so they can still generate upgrade and swap them when needed. 

I guess if you main goal is to buff Barkus you can go down to 1 OI +Myranda (or even just Myranda) and than go heavily OOk... It's a playstyle that I didn't try yet.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Hmmm... My myranda usually prefers to backline nowadays, so I often hold her in the deployment zone anyway.

Though granted she sometimes wants to turn into a rougarou, so can't generate her own mutation turn 1.

Maybe something like this is what I'd try for my first attempt, but mysterious emissary may be too slow for most pools:

New Marcus Crew (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Marcus
Totem(s):
  Jackalope
Hires:
  Order Initiate
    Ancient Pact
  Sabertooth Cerberus
    Ancient Pact
  Myranda
  Mysterious Emissary
  Black Blood Shaman
References:
  Armored Plates
  Natural Camouflage
  Formidable Horns
  Serrated Teeth and Claws
  Feathered Wings
  Bestial Form
  Mature Nephilim

Hinmatsu is good for card hungry crews so may fit well here. I imagine the double mature build also does really well here, and could conceive of a world where we drop Myranda.

Turn one, initiate can give a buff to Cerberus, myranda to Marcus,  and Marcus can either buff myranda or leap.

What were your lists like? It seems to me like a second initiate just locks down your list too hard.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I do like the idea of Myranda tome trigger for a buff, then shapeshift to push emissary up the board.

Less upgrades turn 1, but a lot of action...

I suspect a big tension for this crew will be do you go for lots of upgrades or a strong turn 1. I am leaning towards a strong turn 1 and just getting some incidental upgrade value over the game...

If you only hire models that are good even without upgrades (like Cerberus), then you don't need to worry as much about scrambling to put out upgrades.

[extremor]

8 hours ago, SEV said:

and 1 to 3 from Myranda

Isn’t it a requirement for the flames of change trigger to discard an upgrade TO attach a different upgrade? 
I am a little confused, so maybe I will put Marcus on the table today and try. If I get it right I only see the possibility to get 1-2 upgrades from Myranda. One via aspects of the wild and one via flames of change trigger. And the once per activation phrase on Marcus pack leader ability restricts a second usage of flames of change. 

[extremor]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you only hire models that are good even without upgrades (like Cerberus), then you don't need to worry as much about scrambling to put out upgrades.

That may be the exact advantage of alpha Marcus. While og Marcus heavily tended towards beasts, alpha theoretically has the ability to use reasonable counter play/anti pics. ESP. since you have to pay tax for most models now anyway. And because a few chimera/beasts (primarily: Myranda, initiates and Cerberus) may already be enough for alpha. They can walk up the board as little packs while the versatile/ook act independently. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

19 minutes ago, extremor said:

Isn’t it a requirement for the flames of change trigger to discard an upgrade TO attach a different upgrade? 
I am a little confused, so maybe I will put Marcus on the table today and try. If I get it right I only see the possibility to get 1-2 upgrades from Myranda. One via aspects of the wild and one via flames of change trigger. And the once per activation phrase on Marcus pack leader ability restricts a second usage of flames of change. 

Flames of change gives you a way to get a discard with Myranda before she puts an upgrade on. So she makes one for herself with a bonus, and makes someone else discard/add one. The discard is what gives you another upgrade.

[extremor]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Flames of change gives you a way to get a discard with Myranda before she puts an upgrade on. So she makes one for herself with a bonus, and makes someone else discard/add one. The discard is what gives you another upgrade.

I do get that. @SEV wrote 1-3 upgrades and i only get 1-2 upgrades for Myranda. Therefor I am confused.