Waldo's Weekly - Old Ghosts

[Kyle]

Hey Wyrdos,

This week, after our big Malifaux Burns announcement, Waldo joined a volunteer fire department. As soon as he realized that firefighters don’t start fires and instead extinguish them, he lost interest.  

So, while we put on a streaming campfire video to keep Waldo occupied, let’s take one last look at The Other Side’s Starter Box before its pre-release at Gen Con!

In previous Waldo’s Weeklies, we’ve shown off what the Guild looks like in both Malifaux and The Other Side, including how Sonnia plays in both games, but we’ve only covered Kirai for the Court of Two and Resurrectionists thus far. Today we’re changing that!

In case it bears repeating, The Other Side’s upcoming Starter Box will be compatible with both The Other Side and Malifaux Third Edition. While the Starter Box is predominantly focused on The Other Side, each character included will have an associated Malifaux stat card so that they are playable in both games.

Let’s take a look at what the Gwisin and Enslaved Spirits will look like once they cross the Breach over to Malifaux:

The Gwisin are faceless, vengeful spirits. Despite having already completed their life-debt against those who once wronged them, the Court of Two have forcibly brought them back into this world to distort their need for vengeance and use that unending desire for their own whims. They have followed Kirai from Earth to Malifaux, crawling on their bellies, until their usefulness has run out.

On the Malifaux table, these 6 Soulstone Incorporeal models will help keep nearby friendlies alive with Take the Hit and will make opponents question whether their attacks are worth the risk, thanks to Vengeance +2. On top of that, both the Gwisin and their crew’s Leader will be hard to take down with their Feast of Vengeance and Tear Off A Bite triggers healing them both back up.

No matter what Resurrectionist crew you plan on putting on the table, there’s a lot of utility in these vengeful spirits that make them well worth the cost.

On Earth, Court of Two necromancers discovered a way to bind spirits to the physical world, and keep them there, by way of anchors that bound them to the will of their necromancer. Resurrectionists in Malifaux have utilized this technique to build small forces of these Enslaved Spirits to temporarily control until their curse of imprisonment ends.

At 3 Soulstones, the Enslaved Spirits are cheap Incorporeal models that can help reduce the risk of facing a Focus-heavy opponent with their Chained Ability. Even with only 3 Health, these ghosts can help score some quick points when they leave the table, thanks to their Demise (Claims of the Court) Ability, which leaves a Scheme Marker in its wake. The Enslaved Spirits are particularly helpful to have around in a Urami crew lead by Kirai, Envoy of the Court, as she can easily summon them onto the battlefield with her Join Us Ability.  

So, with seeing how the Gwisin and Enslaved Spirits will play in both Malifaux and The Other Side, we’ve seen everything that The Other Side’s Starter Box has to offer! Forgot what’s included in The Other Side’s Starter Box? Don’t worry; we’ve got you covered:

• 24 Preassembled Miniatures, which includes: Sonnia Criid - Unmasked, 3 Guild Mages, 6 Gatling Gunners, Kirai Ankoku – Envoy of the Court, Ikiryo, 9 Enslaved Spirits, and 3 Gwisin

• Tactics Tokens (and other tokens and Markers)

• 2 Fate Decks (1 Guild and 1 Court of Two)

• 2 TOS Measuring Tapes

• The Other Side bases (and fireteam bases)

• Unit cards for The Other Side and stat cards for Malifaux

• A Quick Start Guide to teach the basics of how to play The Other Side

Note: Because this is a Starter Box for The Other Side first and compatible with Malifaux second (and to keep the cost of the Starter Box down), the bases included are for The Other Side. Malifaux bases are available on our webstore.

The Other Side Starter Box will be available early as a pre-release at Gen Con and will be hitting local game store shelves in November for just $100. If you haven’t gotten into The Other Side yet, the Starter Box is a great way to start.

But that’s not the only news we have for The Other Side this week! Both Samantha Thrace and Binh Nguyen will be receiving new sculpts in their official release. These Champions were previously only available during The Other Side’s Kickstarter, but these new sculpts will be hitting store shelves in October (and will be available as a pre-release at Gen Con).

Did I mention that both Binh and Thrace will be compatible as alt models in Malifaux, too? You can play Samantha Thrace in your Guard crew, as she is an alt for Dashel Barker. Binh Nguyen can join your Urami crew as an alt Datsue Ba. These alt stat cards will be included in each box (as well as their bases for both Malifaux and The Other Side).

We’ve got a lot more in the pipeline for The Other Side, but you’ll have to wait until later this year to hear about what's coming next!

[Jinn]

Well... Take the hit on a versatile Vengeance +2 and Incorporeal model. My opponents will be displeased 

[trikk]

1 minute ago, Jinn said:

Well... Take the hit on a versatile Vengeance +2 and Incorporeal model. My opponents will be displeased 

you wrote traumatized wrong

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Well... Take the hit on a versatile Vengeance +2 and Incorporeal model. My opponents will be displeased 

I'm fairly sure that if you use take the hit, you don't get to use Vengence on that attack. (FAQ section 2 question 12), as you haven't targeted the gwisin (even though it is the target). 

 

[Pallas4]

31 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Well... Take the hit on a versatile Vengeance +2 and Incorporeal model. My opponents will be displeased 

Jinn's opponents, you should learn to play models with Obey... and take one Gwisin to hit the second.

[Jinn]

17 minutes ago, Adran said:

I'm fairly sure that if you use take the hit, you don't get to use Vengence on that attack. (FAQ section 2 question 12), as you haven't targeted the gwisin (even though it is the target). 

 

Oh I forgot about that. Has that been clarified anywhere? The wording of it always struck me as intended to disallow double dipping on abilities but yours is the more commonly understood interpretation I think.

[Adran]

Just now, Jinn said:

Oh I forgot about that. Has that been clarified anywhere? The wording of it always struck me as intended to disallow double dipping on abilities but yours is the more commonly understood interpretation I think.

There has been nothing official since the FAQ release, because the only official answers are the FAQ releases. 

"However, some effects may change the target of the Action, in which case that new model is not targeted and as such those effects aren’t generated a second time" is the line I think that means that my interpretation is the intent, rather than just you can't suffer 2 terrifying tests. 

And

"For example, if a model with Take the Hit changes the target of an Action to itself, it would not benefit from any of the initial target’s Abilities such as Manipulative that require the Action to target “this model”, nor could it benefit from more of its own abilities that resolve when it is targeted (such as Terrifying)"

Does cover this question fairly clearly (to my mind). 

 

[Rufess]

Vengeance is, unlike Terrifying and Manipulative, taking effect after resolved the attack. Would this changes how the ability interact with the FAQ?

[Jinn]

5 minutes ago, Rufess said:

Vengeance is, unlike Terrifying and Manipulative, taking effect after resolved the attack. Would this changes how the ability interact with the FAQ?

I think technically by the (most common interpretation of, which I dislike because it makes no sense outside of rebalancing models) FAQ whenever you change the target of an action the new model is in no way at all targeted, it is merely the target of the action which is an entirely different thing. So by that interpretation even things that don't resolve during the targeting phase would be nixed, like Combat Finesse.

[Adran]

7 minutes ago, Rufess said:

Vengeance is, unlike Terrifying and Manipulative, taking effect after resolved the attack. Would this changes how the ability interact with the FAQ?

I would say no, the new model was not targeted by the attack, so it doesn't meet the Vengeance Criteria. 

 

1 minute ago, Jinn said:

I think technically by the (most common interpretation of, which I dislike because it makes no sense outside of rebalancing models) FAQ whenever you change the target of an action the new model is in no way at all targeted, it is merely the target of the action which is an entirely different thing. So by that interpretation even things that don't resolve during the targeting phase would be nixed, like Combat Finesse.

For what its worth, prior to the FAQ I answered questions based on the fact that ability required the model to be targeted, not to be the target, and things which changed the target did not mean the original model targeted the new target. So at the start of Step 3 of resolving actions, the attacking model declares a target. That is the only model that the attacker "targeted" and so any affects based of models targeted would be based on this. The target may change, but the attacker didn't "target" the new target.

 

[Jinn]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would say no, the new model was not targeted by the attack, so it doesn't meet the Vengeance Criteria. 

 

For what its worth, prior to the FAQ I answered questions based on the fact that ability required the model to be targeted, not to be the target, and things which changed the target did not mean the original model targeted the new target. So at the start of Step 3 of resolving actions, the attacking model declares a target. That is the only model that the attacker "targeted" and so any affects based of models targeted would be based on this. The target may change, but the attacker didn't "target" the new target.

 

It just so plainly flies in the face of the actual non-game english meaning of the words that it bothers me. It also makes zero sense that something isn't Terrifying just because your target was switched to it, same with Combat Finesse.

Technically it means that you can declare resistance triggers on a Disengage attack if you hand it to a model with one, as you can only not declare it against Disengage actions that targeted you. 

[RayMet]

I think the answer was described here: On the Malifaux table, these 6 Soulstone Incorporeal models will help keep nearby friendlies alive with Take the Hit and will make opponents question whether their attacks are worth the risk, thanks to Vengeance +2. On top of that, both the Gwisin and their crew’s Leader will be hard to take down with their Feast of Vengeance and Tear Off A Bite triggers healing them both back up.

[Korrok]

19 minutes ago, RayMet said:

I think the answer was described here: On the Malifaux table, these 6 Soulstone Incorporeal models will help keep nearby friendlies alive with Take the Hit and will make opponents question whether their attacks are worth the risk, thanks to Vengeance +2. On top of that, both the Gwisin and their crew’s Leader will be hard to take down with their Feast of Vengeance and Tear Off A Bite triggers healing them both back up.

This reads like the intention is for vengeance to work. 

[SEV]

Again Wyrd you need to publish a quick rules summary/ FAQ with your new release... This is really low cost and it will help tremendously!

[muraki]

2 hours ago, RayMet said:

I think the answer was described here: On the Malifaux table, these 6 Soulstone Incorporeal models will help keep nearby friendlies alive with Take the Hit and will make opponents question whether their attacks are worth the risk, thanks to Vengeance +2. On top of that, both the Gwisin and their crew’s Leader will be hard to take down with their Feast of Vengeance and Tear Off A Bite triggers healing them both back up.

Sorry no, I'm not taking promotional copy as rules law.  The faq is clear about targeting / changing targets for take the hit. That's an official vetted responce.

As it is I read it as 'has take the hit' 'has vengeance' just cause they put it in the same sentence doesn't mean it works together... As anytime I target the gwisin to try and remove the bodyguard ill have to decide if it's worth my while.

[50 SS Enforcer]

I mean, I really want to buy this set. Just would want a confirmation on a FAQ before it’s released.
Would a rewording on take the hit be better, or a rewording on vengeance be better should they want it to take vengeance damage on take the hit?

I understand not wanting terrifying to happen, would it be better if it was like black blood? I took damage, so do you? 
 

“if this model took damage from an attack action, the model that caused the damage takes 2 damage” this would still allow tactical actions to damage them, abilities to damage them with out vengeance procing. What this would now allow though, I’d take the hit to go through, but so does pulses and blasts. It’s really hard to word it.

This model almost needs a special rule, vengeance caused by this model ignores targeting restrictions. Make it so just this one model breaks rules via a new ability. Or a specially worded take the hit, that falls into the category that would allow vengeance. 
 

[fire5tone]

10 minutes ago, 50 SS Enforcer said:

I mean, I really want to buy this set. Just would want a confirmation on a FAQ before it’s released.
Would a rewording on take the hit be better, or a rewording on vengeance be better should they want it to take vengeance damage on take the hit?

I understand not wanting terrifying to happen, would it be better if it was like black blood? I took damage, so do you? 
 

“if this model took damage from an attack action, the model that caused the damage takes 2 damage” this would still allow tactical actions to damage them, abilities to damage them with out vengeance procing. What this would now allow though, I’d take the hit to go through, but so does pulses and blasts. It’s really hard to word it.

This model almost needs a special rule, vengeance caused by this model ignores targeting restrictions. Make it so just this one model breaks rules via a new ability. Or a specially worded take the hit, that falls into the category that would allow vengeance. 
 

I don't want veangence 2 TTH to work, besides, the models already crazy enough as is

[Adran]

42 minutes ago, 50 SS Enforcer said:

 

This model almost needs a special rule, vengeance caused by this model ignores targeting restrictions. Make it so just this one model breaks rules via a new ability. Or a specially worded take the hit, that falls into the category that would allow vengeance. 
 

Vengeance +2 incorporeal already requires 4 damage before you are making a profit on wounds. Letting take the hit also trigger vengeance just about makes the umani bubble untouchable. 

[fire5tone]

23 minutes ago, Adran said:

Vengeance +2 incorporeal already requires 4 damage before you are making a profit on wounds. Letting take the hit also trigger vengeance just about makes the umani bubble untouchable. 

You could slap an upgrade on them to make em regen and have terryfying too, I'd detest that

[bakaryu135]

@Kyle the article says that the TOS box is $100usd, just to point out for the lack of consistency the upcoming page on the wyrd website lists it at $95usd

[Zombified Kiwi]

Ah bloody 'ell.
I was really hoping that the models wouldn't be preassembled.
I had a lot of problems with the woobly plastics from TOS.

[Pallas4]

Oh, for information, those models are not on the two pages where the content is revealed (while the guild mage and gunner are)

[Rob Lo]

Can you imagine someone playing the game just reading the shiny new cards fresh out of the box, playing with friend for days/weeks/months and then going out into the bigger world of faux and "well, actually, being a target doesn't mean you were targeted, and that card doesn't work the way that card reads, and never did."

That's a lovely intro into faux, if you ask me.

[muraki]

54 minutes ago, Rob Lo said:

Can you imagine someone playing the game just reading the shiny new cards fresh out of the box, playing with friend for days/weeks/months and then going out into the bigger world of faux and "well, actually, being a target doesn't mean you were targeted, and that card doesn't work the way that card reads, and never did."

That's a lovely intro into faux, if you ask me.

And here I assumed the true intro would be realizing 1/3 the cards are errataed and they've been using the wrong ones....

[Jinn]

6 hours ago, muraki said:

And here I assumed the true intro would be realizing 1/3 the cards are errataed and they've been using the wrong ones....

Balance erratum for physical games and tabletop wargames are quite normal, and having rules actually change is a part of that. Being told that the most rules lawyerest interpretation of a model's text (that changing a model to be the target doesn't make it targeted) is actually correct and what the designers intended (which is an implication of an FAQ) leaves a very different impression, potentially on Wyrd/Malifaux as a whole. An Errata of the general rules that makes models abilities work in an intuitive way would be better, such as making effects that change targeting go off before any others that trigger in the Targeting step.

I'm not saying I think Gwisin should have Take the Hit & Vengeance +2 work from a balance perspective, although most of that is because of their high wounds which is kind of a separate issue specific to this model, but having those two abilities right next to each other on their card is very suggestive to those who read it. It's clearly confusing, as evidenced by the widespread confusion in the Malifaux community between those who remembered that FAQ and thought it blocked the interaction, those who remembered it and disagreed, and everyone who didn't remember it and intuitively thought these abilities worked together. 

 

Moving on from Gwisin, does anyone have any idea why Enslaved Spirits Demise is "After this model is killed, it may Drop a Scheme Marker completely within 3."?
Why is it not just within 2" like (almost) every other ability other than Flight? Is there some scheme implication that I'm missing, because as far as I can tell all it changes is about 0.2" of max distance which hardly seems worth it in my eyes.