Urgent issues for titles.

[Maladroit]

2 minutes ago, Maladroit said:

I would interpret the FAQ the other way actually RAW. From the FAQ. "However, some effects may change the target of the Action, in which case that new model is not targeted and as such those effects aren’t generated a second time. " I see where you are coming from, but this seems pretty black-and-white - that statement is not dependent on anything I can see. Strangely we seem to end up in a situation where neither model applies Vengence. The new target is not targeted, and Vengence specifically requires the model to be targeted, rather than to become the target. FAQ says it isn't. And Vengance requires damage, and the first model is not taking damage.

Edit: This is probably a good question for the rules forum, there are other variations on this theme.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah, there's plenty of spirited discussions on the internet about it already, so I have no further comments.

Other than the existence of all these discussions (and the clear intent of Waldo's Weekly that it DOES work) suggests to me they'd ideally address it (either in design if it doesn't work with the rules, or FAQ eventually).

[Maladroit]

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, there's plenty of spirited discussions on the internet about it already, so I have no further comments.

Other than the existence of all these discussions (and the clear intent of Waldo's Weekly that it DOES work) suggests to me they'd ideally address it (either in design if it doesn't work with the rules, or FAQ eventually).

If we believed their marketing we'd be seeing all in Keyword themey Guild lists being taken everywhere too. But you are right, there does seem to be a disconnect between what might have been intended and how the rules interact. I doubt they can change Vengeance at this point, but if the point of this thread is to make changes before release, what if it read "If this model was the target and took damage from an action, after resolving the action the attacking model suffers +1 damage." Not how Wyrd would normally write abilities like this, but I would imagine this would clearly mean the Vengeance ability is triggered on the eventual target of the action. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I assume we'll see it caught by proofreading, but Marcus title has a few typos (like 'cannot not place')

[Maniacal_cackle]

New Mah has "ignores vertical distance while moving", but many believe that to mean "ignores vertical distance except for pushes and non-walk moves"... Aka, is walk only.

It is confirmed it definitely doesn't include pushes in the FAQ, so is probably mostly sorted (although still feels like a weird design to put on a model that it ignores vertical distance but it doesn't actually). This one is more an existing problem, but I hope it will increase the desire to address it properly/sort out the rest with an FAQ.

If it is meant to solely work for walks, I don't see why the phrasing couldn't be "ignores vertical distance while walking"? EDIT: Or "while taking the walk action" is probably the proper formatting.

EDIT2: It appears that Mah also has a little bit of redundancy in her abilities as well, since scrapyard mines confers immunity to (all?) pit trap markers within 6, and then Heaps of Trash allows them to again ignore hazardous terrain (presumably there to ignore pit trap markers, which they already do within 6, now increased to 12?). Unless the point is to have a 12" aura for Tricksy, and a 6" for non-keyword friendlies?

[Rufess]

46 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

EDIT2: It appears that Mah also has a little bit of redundancy in her abilities as well, since scrapyard mines confers immunity to (all?) pit trap markers within 6, and then Heaps of Trash allows them to again ignore hazardous terrain (presumably there to ignore pit trap markers, which they already do within 6, now increased to 12?). Unless the point is to have a 12" aura for Tricksy, and a 6" for non-keyword friendlies?

Because Scrapyard Mines only let friendly models ignore hazard effect from scrap marker but not original pit trap marker? I mean Test Subject is designed around the pit trap, and it is strange that their master is denying those abilities. It just like McMourning2 having an ability to prevent friendly model gaining poison.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Rufess said:

Because Scrapyard Mines only let friendly models ignore hazard effect from scrap marker but not original pit trap marker? I mean Test Subject is designed around the pit trap, and it is strange that their master is denying those abilities. It just like McMourning2 having an ability to prevent friendly model gaining poison.

I've heard it both ways, some people play it that it is all of the above sort of thing... So perhaps something for the FAQ next year.

[trikk]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

New Mah has "ignores vertical distance while moving", but many believe that to mean "ignores vertical distance except for pushes and non-walk moves"... Aka, is walk only.

It is confirmed it definitely doesn't include pushes in the FAQ, so is probably mostly sorted (although still feels like a weird design to put on a model that it ignores vertical distance but it doesn't actually). This one is more an existing problem, but I hope it will increase the desire to address it properly/sort out the rest with an FAQ.

If it is meant to solely work for walks, I don't see why the phrasing couldn't be "ignores vertical distance while walking"? EDIT: Or "while taking the walk action" is probably the proper formatting.

EDIT2: It appears that Mah also has a little bit of redundancy in her abilities as well, since scrapyard mines confers immunity to (all?) pit trap markers within 6, and then Heaps of Trash allows them to again ignore hazardous terrain (presumably there to ignore pit trap markers, which they already do within 6, now increased to 12?). Unless the point is to have a 12" aura for Tricksy, and a 6" for non-keyword friendlies?

There are also other Hazardous terrains bar pit traps

[Adran]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

New Mah has "ignores vertical distance while moving", but many believe that to mean "ignores vertical distance except for pushes and non-walk moves"... Aka, is walk only.

It is confirmed it definitely doesn't include pushes in the FAQ, so is probably mostly sorted (although still feels like a weird design to put on a model that it ignores vertical distance but it doesn't actually). This one is more an existing problem, but I hope it will increase the desire to address it properly/sort out the rest with an FAQ.

If it is meant to solely work for walks, I don't see why the phrasing couldn't be "ignores vertical distance while walking"? EDIT: Or "while taking the walk action" is probably the proper formatting.

EDIT2: It appears that Mah also has a little bit of redundancy in her abilities as well, since scrapyard mines confers immunity to (all?) pit trap markers within 6, and then Heaps of Trash allows them to again ignore hazardous terrain (presumably there to ignore pit trap markers, which they already do within 6, now increased to 12?). Unless the point is to have a 12" aura for Tricksy, and a 6" for non-keyword friendlies?

Scrapyard mines already exists so that wording is fixed. They didn't have to give her that ability, but if it mainly does what they want, then its easier to duplicate an ability that already exists rather than make players learn an almost identical ability

Giving her an ability that does 1 thing in 6" and something else in 12" is something that a lot of players seem to find confusing, so I think they try and avoid that. 

And I refere to the FAQ for your first question (section 3 Q10)

*What does “ignoring vertical distance” mean?

* a) If a model ignores vertical distance than it ignores Falling damage and while taking the Walk Action it can move vertically along Climbable Terrain without using any amount of its movement distance. This does not however allow a model to Push over terrain, as it would still need to break its movement into shorter distances.

 

Climb is only allowed during a walk action. So models can't go up during other movement even if the total distance would only count as 0" they would still need to climb, but it always ignores falling damage (as long as it occurs during a movement effect)

[Maniacal_cackle]

56 minutes ago, Adran said:

Scrapyard mines already exists so that wording is fixed. They didn't have to give her that ability, but if it mainly does what they want, then its easier to duplicate an ability that already exists rather than make players learn an almost identical ability

Giving her an ability that does 1 thing in 6" and something else in 12" is something that a lot of players seem to find confusing, so I think they try and avoid that. 

And I refere to the FAQ for your first question (section 3 Q10)

*What does “ignoring vertical distance” mean?

* a) If a model ignores vertical distance than it ignores Falling damage and while taking the Walk Action it can move vertically along Climbable Terrain without using any amount of its movement distance. This does not however allow a model to Push over terrain, as it would still need to break its movement into shorter distances.

 

Climb is only allowed during a walk action. So models can't go up during other movement even if the total distance would only count as 0" they would still need to climb, but it always ignores falling damage (as long as it occurs during a movement effect)

It is addressed but not resolved in the FAQ (see the lengthy forum thread on it and the discord disagreements xD).

So a good thing to put on the radar for Man's release at least.

[Morgan Vening]

One thing someone in my local pointed out, is that the wording on Scrapyard Mines is vague.

I, and several others assumed that the card read clearly that a Scrap marker is treated as ALSO being a Pit Marker (and vise versa). But on reading the card, he interpreted that it's INSTEAD a Pit Marker (and therefore no longer a scrap marker), which isn't technically a wrong interpretation. It just breaks the mechanics.

Also, New Mei autokills New Reva with Impromptu Invention/Workplace Efficiency. We just spent a week pointing out it was very hard to do, as few models could do it, and were either unlikely to be able to do it (Lyssa), or not models you want barrelling into the fray (Brin). Then Mei comes out, and it's an 8", Wp7 attack. 

[Adran]

31 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is addressed but not resolved in the FAQ (see the lengthy forum thread on it and the discord disagreements xD).

So a good thing to put on the radar for Man's release at least.

Honestly, I don't actually know what discord is. 

I'm trying to find the forum thread ( I remember participating in some but I have no idea when or where it was) with no luck at the moment. I thought it was prior to the FAQ, and I assumend the FAQ answered the questions, but the past 2 years has a lot of things blurred together, so there could easily have been one since the FAQ that I don't remember fully. 

Unless you are talking about the climb is only allowed during a walk (I found a few on that both before and after the last FAQ), to which I really can't follow the arguments that say I should ignore 1 section of the rulebook to mean a different section is read a different way, when I can follow both sections, and the FAQ passively supports that view, so in addition to ignoring 2 paragraphs of the rules you also have to decide the FAQ answer is written stupidly to get a different answer. 

So ignore vertical distances has 2 effects. You take 0 damage for falling, because you fell 0" because you ignored the distance) and if you are allowed to climb (only permitted during the walk action) the vertical distance you climb takes 0" of your movement. Any other form of movement does not have the Permission in the rules to have an unsupported base because the climbable trait does not grant that permission. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I guess those are example of existing issues rather than issues with the new cards, so won't rehash them too much xD

For a new issue: there's some confusion on when you CHOOSE titles (since all that has been spelled out is when you REVEAL titles). I assume that you choose titles during crew selection, but some people assume you choose titles during master selection (but don't reveal until later).

I believe this has already been brought to the attention of Wyrd staff, but adding it here.

[Maniacal_cackle]

This may or may not be intentional (because of how the crews are designed), but...

• Kaeris passing on burning damage is end phase only.
• Curator passing on poison damage is any phase.

That's an inconsistency in similar abilities. Now these happen all the time, but does make me wonder if perhaps the design intention was the same but they accidentally ended up different.

So just adding it to the list of things that stand out.

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This may or may not be intentional (because of how the crews are designed), but...

• Kaeris passing on burning damage is end phase only.
• Curator passing on poison damage is any phase.

That's an inconsistency in similar abilities. Now these happen all the time, but does make me wonder if perhaps the design intention was the same but they accidentally ended up different.

So just adding it to the list of things that stand out.

Kaeris doesn't need base contact. Kaeris is a master, so much more durable than a 6ss enforcer. Burning doesn't normally reduce itself, so they have different reduction rules. She doesn't get to choose to heal if she can't damage someone else

Also, Sybyiotic relationship can be used to heal a friendly model with perverse metabilism. 

Whilst there is a similarity, there are a lot of differences, not to mention there are many more ways to make a model suffer poison damage during the turn that there are Burning, several of which are designed to be beneficial to the crew. And the poison based crews typically play with the condition a lot more than the burning based crews seem to (maybe because the burning doesn't naturally reduce). 

 

[Raising]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This may or may not be intentional (because of how the crews are designed), but...

• Kaeris passing on burning damage is end phase only.
• Curator passing on poison damage is any phase.

That's an inconsistency in similar abilities. Now these happen all the time, but does make me wonder if perhaps the design intention was the same but they accidentally ended up different.

So just adding it to the list of things that stand out.

if kaeris skill whould be "always" , you could target her with immolate in order to deal 5 damage without oposition 

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, Raising said:

if kaeris skill whould be "always" , you could target her with immolate in order to deal 5 damage without oposition 

Yeah, but the mcmourning crew can do the same thing with blood poisoning xD

Perhaps intentional (a lot harder to pull off with the Curator), but seemed worth noting.

[Raising]

32 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, but the mcmourning crew can do the same thing with blood poisoning xD

Perhaps intentional (a lot harder to pull off with the Curator), but seemed worth noting.

but is not as easy to build up poison vs burning. any way i think it should be limited to max 3 damage

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well...

Just found out you can use plastic surgery to give Curator 'hurl corpse' so it can yeet itself, so you can probably one-shot someone end of turn with a ~16 inch threat range xD

24 if you want to include sloth xD

EDIT: Probably not the 'best' way to play him, but an interesting ability.

[fire5tone]

10 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well...

Just found out you can use plastic surgery to give Curator 'hurl corpse' so it can yeet itself, so you can probably one-shot someone end of turn with a ~16 inch threat range xD

24 if you want to include sloth xD

EDIT: Probably not the 'best' way to play him, but an interesting ability.

If you have some hazardous you can also bring it with you because of drag along, give yourself and the enemy 1 poison free

[Maniacal_cackle]

More of a typo issue, but... The McMourning upgrades have a mistake.

Too many legs
Too many arms
Too many heads
Too MUCH skin?

Should have been Too Many Skins...

To indicate that it isn't just one coherent skin, and too much of it. But rather they're wearing like 8 layers of skin.

Thanks for listening to my clearest bit of wisdom since titles released.

[HomelessOne]

Look, Doug's a licensed medical professional. I'm not going to second guess his nomenclature, I'm sure he knows what he's doing.

[Mycellanious]

22 hours ago, Raising said:

but is not as easy to build up poison vs burning. any way i think it should be limited to max 3 damage

Lol it is in a Mcmourning Crew. You can do what, something like 70 poison turn 1? And that was before the existence of Hazardous Poison markers XD

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:32 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well...

Just found out you can use plastic surgery to give Curator 'hurl corpse' so it can yeet itself, so you can probably one-shot someone end of turn with a ~16 inch threat range xD

24 if you want to include sloth xD

EDIT: Probably not the 'best' way to play him, but an interesting ability.

You have the 24" range with McCabe! If using friendlies for the first 1/2 Hurl's, it can be up to 18" or 28".

Curator also has a typo and can only move the marker for Dredge Up "up 4" (so technically 0" RAW?). That's going to be a headache with the wrong person...

 

[ShinChan]

Pistoleros becoming Death Marshalls with +1 to all stats that after killing someone they heal 4 and become Monster Hunters. Was this supposed to be intentional?

Edit: The fact that when the Monster Hunter kills someone, it gets replaced by a Monster Hunter, healing 2 and gaining Slow and Shielded +1, also seems quite weird and unnintentional.

Edited August 30, 2021 by ShinChan
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