Hoffman the Inventor

[Rufess]

If the Cerberuses are the only models in your crew can do schemes, they then are having a huge target over their heads. They are not known as durability in regular game, and if you managed to lock your opponent's crew out of position to scoring or interacting with the rest of your crew, guess what would they spend their actions on?

So if you lost your schemer early and rest of your crew were not able to pass through the blocking line like your opponent, then you could hardly score any point neither.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just define all the trains and walls as climbable and problem solved.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Rufess said:

If the Cerberuses are the only models in your crew can do schemes, they then are having a huge target over their heads. They are not known as durability in regular game, and if you managed to lock your opponent's crew out of position to scoring or interacting with the rest of your crew, guess what would they spend their actions on?

So if you lost your schemer early and rest of your crew were not able to pass through the blocking line like your opponent, then you could hardly score any point neither.

Just define all the trains and walls as climbable and problem solved.

Hoffman can escape with bulldoze (can just go through the train). He can hang back and defend if the enemy tries to put pressure on the deployment.

Cerberus + myranda is usually plenty for me to score with, but would require some testing for sure. There's probably a ton of builds that you could use to go scheming, since there's 36 free stones (and you probably could get away with fewer).

Although again, that particular example has probably gone into impractical territory. Probably better to focus on being a bit more efficient and being happy with denying 1-2 symbols for 1 AP and call it a day.

[Rufess]

23 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Although again, that particular example has probably gone into impractical territory. Probably better to focus on being a bit more efficient and being happy with denying 1-2 symbols for 1 AP and call it a day.

Then it is not that different from blocking symbol markers with destructible terrain like Pianos and Ice Pillar isn't it. In most Symbols game with one side playing Zipp I played or watched, there usually is a symbol or two protected by a turn1-created Piano remaining not touched by enemy until the end of the game. Players are unlikely to score full point in a game anyway, so why bother to go to the symbols behind blocking marker, whether destructible or not.

I believe you need to block all 4 symbols by turn 2 before enemies can get into any one of them, otherwise it is not as impactful as it may sound.

And again, careful defining the terrain can help to resolve the issue a lot. For instance, we can defined all impassible terrains as climbable, and suddenly Hoffman cannot shut down the center line with a train, nor he can trap a model with a wall.

[Maniacal_cackle]

17 hours ago, Rufess said:

Then it is not that different from blocking symbol markers with destructible terrain like Pianos and Ice Pillar isn't it.

Well, pianos for instance they can make up to 4 a turn if they're willing to use a bit of AP, and you can get through those pretty fast if there's not a model guarding them. Hoffman on the other hand can lock down 2 permanently and then forget about them for the rest of the game.

17 hours ago, Rufess said:

I believe you need to block all 4 symbols by turn 2 before enemies can get into any one of them, otherwise it is not as impactful as it may sound.

4 is quite extreme. You can easily lock down 3 by turn 2 with just Hoffman, and you have another 50 stones of models to play the game (not to mention the rest of Hoffmans AP, since it only takes him 1 ap + 2 bonus actions to lock down 3 markers in some cases).

And of course if you want to go hard-out, you can happily hire a silent one and do a destructible pillar block on the fourth symbol.

It isn't something you can pull out every game, but it seems like a big thing for the opponent to have to take into account. Or a model getting locked. Or the lodestone carrier lock (where you make it so no one can reach the model to interact without killing Hoffman first), etc.

17 hours ago, Rufess said:

And again, careful defining the terrain can help to resolve the issue a lot. For instance, we can defined all impassible terrains as climbable, and suddenly Hoffman cannot shut down the center line with a train, nor he can trap a model with a wall.

But you define terrain before you declare masters. So how does that work?

If someone declares hoffman, do you change terrain declaration? Does that mean the hoffman player can change what they declared?

Or do you just define every board in case someone plays Hoffman?

Obviously you can do gentlemen's agreements to house-rule the terrain rules so that Hoffman works, but you can house-rule anything you like.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, since the lodestone lock hasn't come up on here yet, here is what it looks like:

You lock a model up against the leyline that is holding the lodestone (ideally start of turn 2), and you position in such a way that the model cannot move unless it moves/kills Hoffman first.

You also position it so no model can be within 1" of the lodestone carrier without being engaged by Hoffman (so another model can't rescue the marker).

You can also counterplay by moving hoffman (assuming it isn't guild hoffman with Laugh Off upgrade), or by killing Hoffman (which is certainly not a trivial task!)

But it is just one more thing in the toolbox of Hoffman that has me going "is this really how Hoffman was meant to be played? Or was he meant to be played tossing out some markers that buff up his crew?"

[Thatguy]

On 8/16/2021 at 5:14 AM, Rufess said:

And again, careful defining the terrain can help to resolve the issue a lot. For instance, we can defined all impassible terrains as climbable, and suddenly Hoffman cannot shut down the center line with a train, nor he can trap a model with a wall.

If you have to stop playing with certain terrain because one Master will destroy the game if you don't, I think that Master is a problem. 

[Trimasel]

I will add my five cents to discussion:

If player hoffman (or other master) goes to board control game with markers, when you don't have tech to avoid this (or it will cost you), then you just playing defensively & just counter score his points. Probably opponent would not impact heavily board in first/two tourns, so you could take better position to kill/score schemes/take better position. So in game ends you are both with low score & probably only with score of schemes. 

So I don't see any problem here. 

P.s. This is why I don't like play Raspy in tournaments - I use a lot of resources to dictate - "it will cost you & me to get a lot of points". So it's kills tournament getting better place by scoring VPs and diff. So my thoughts on this topic if you go with this route by this Hoffman it would be the same. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

33 minutes ago, Trimasel said:

I will add my five cents to discussion:

If player hoffman (or other master) goes to board control game with markers, when you don't have tech to avoid this (or it will cost you), then you just playing defensively & just counter score his points. Probably opponent would not impact heavily board in first/two tourns, so you could take better position to kill/score schemes/take better position. So in game ends you are both with low score & probably only with score of schemes. 

So I don't see any problem here. 

P.s. This is why I don't like play Raspy in tournaments - I use a lot of resources to dictate - "it will cost you & me to get a lot of points". So it's kills tournament getting better place by scoring VPs and diff. So my thoughts on this topic if you go with this route by this Hoffman it would be the same. 

I mean, I've now gotten it so efficient that all it takes is two bonus actions (and a bulldoze but you need to advance up the board anyway), and you can lock down three symbols. You don't even have to avoid moving up the board because the huge range of the bonus action.

So it is a pretty trivial cost to Hoffman for potentially a completely game-altering result.

I mean he can cover markers as fast and easily as Zipp and Earl can, except his markers aren't destructible so he doesn't have to spam lots of them, so is even faster.

That said I don't think the problem is necessarily that it is unbalanced (that requires seeing how it does in tournaments for example).

But it is a terrible play experience and I can't imagine it is how the crew was designed to be played.

[Jinn]

37 minutes ago, Trimasel said:

I will add my five cents to discussion:

If player hoffman (or other master) goes to board control game with markers, when you don't have tech to avoid this (or it will cost you), then you just playing defensively & just counter score his points. Probably opponent would not impact heavily board in first/two tourns, so you could take better position to kill/score schemes/take better position. So in game ends you are both with low score & probably only with score of schemes. 

So I don't see any problem here. 

P.s. This is why I don't like play Raspy in tournaments - I use a lot of resources to dictate - "it will cost you & me to get a lot of points". So it's kills tournament getting better place by scoring VPs and diff. So my thoughts on this topic if you go with this route by this Hoffman it would be the same. 

What if he just traps your master on like turn 2 or 3? A lot of masters don't have an escape for that, especially if they don't explicitly plan for it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Jinn said:

What if he just traps your master on like turn 2 or 3? A lot of masters don't have an escape for that, especially if they don't explicitly plan for it.

Which again, just takes leaving a pylon marker in the right place and then seeing if the enemy master is willing to position within 5" of the impassable terrain.

Ive played on boards where you couldn't cross the centreline without going within 5" of impassable terrain xD

[Jinn]

You can bring Langston and the Emissary in Guild to have two 50mms who can place a target in melee within 3" of themselves (Heave). Kaeris could do it with Grab and Drop in Arcanists, and Colette could swap you 8" with a dove. I wonder what the biggest model jail you could feasibly make in an actual game would be?

With ideal terrain, like a blown out open faced three walled building or something similar, you could build something beautiful. 

Guardians can toss models that have already activated (for best effect) right into Hoffman's greedy robot arms.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I didn't even really consider making big jails...

For instance, in this board state if Hoffman activates and lands 2 hits, Brewmaster gets locked into the jail xD

[trikk]

23 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I didn't even really consider making big jails...

For instance, in this board state if Hoffman activates and lands 2 hits, Brewmaster gets locked into the jail xD

[Math Mathonwy]

13 minutes ago, trikk said:

In Brewmaster's defense, Hoffman has got that naughty nun look going on there...

[Maniacal_cackle]

Ooooooo, now people have discovered how to do all 4 symbols turn one in either faction if you use double masters (bulldozing changelings or command construct in arcanists).

The arcanists one actually uses what is probably a playable crew xD

Edit: command construct doesn't work because it is once per turn.

[Higgybeans]

I know this is a mildly old thread. But I just wanted to add my thoughts.

Using Pylon's to lock out the strategy can deny your opponents points. But then they aren't giving your models shielded or power tokens.

Most of the constructs have lower defensive stats, and without the power support may be easier to take out to score your schemes instead.

A lot of your "prison" talks are, Hoffman has to do this, this THEN HIT the opponent. Surely playing against the inventor you keep your high card to defend. Much easier than bringing anti-tech pieces. Then the Hoffman has set up to prison you, and actually done nothing instead. This seems quite risky.

If having a board covered in terrain is a problem, other Masters would already be a problem. (Basse and all severe, Ivan on a board of forests and so on). You can't say this is the problem with the game, it is just a part of it. Some masters will benefit from boards than others, and it influences you Master pick.

While I see your points about it potentially being a NPE, I don't think it will be nearly as bad as you are suggesting. And only time will tell when more people have the chance to play with and against it.

[Peturd]

1 hour ago, Higgybeans said:

I know this is a mildly old thread. But I just wanted to add my thoughts.

Using Pylon's to lock out the strategy can deny your opponents points. But then they aren't giving your models shielded or power tokens.

Most of the constructs have lower defensive stats, and without the power support may be easier to take out to score your schemes instead.

A lot of your "prison" talks are, Hoffman has to do this, this THEN HIT the opponent. Surely playing against the inventor you keep your high card to defend. Much easier than bringing anti-tech pieces. Then the Hoffman has set up to prison you, and actually done nothing instead. This seems quite risky.

If having a board covered in terrain is a problem, other Masters would already be a problem. (Basse and all severe, Ivan on a board of forests and so on). You can't say this is the problem with the game, it is just a part of it. Some masters will benefit from boards than others, and it influences you Master pick.

While I see your points about it potentially being a NPE, I don't think it will be nearly as bad as you are suggesting. And only time will tell when more people have the chance to play with and against it.

Well said! I think to add to this, it might end up being a NPE on vassal, but I feel like in person this will be less of an issue. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, about a month out from the book, so it is probably all locked in.

Kharnage pointed out that Cassandra can copy the bulldoze action to make another pylon.

So you can lock three symbols turn 1 and sort the fourth turn 2. And then she is a decent scheme runner in her own right that hasn't sacrificed anything to do this if positioning lines up.

Let the abuse begin!