Nexus, one of many and Cavatica

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Ummm... aren't these completely insane? It's a Master with 21 Wounds and 9 AP (though that degrades when the models get killed, naturally). And yeah, not all of their Actions are amazing for a Master but they can have three friendly Obeys for Charge at 12" needing a four and no suit! Why is that TN so ridiculously low? And then this abomination for some reason gets two monstrously powerful Totems to boot.

Why is Nexus like this?

Yes, and no. 

Yes you get 9 actions, but old nexus had 6, so its not a huge boost. And I would say that on the whole the actions are all worse. Viks1 get 8 actions and I would say they typically get better actions. 

Yes they have 2 shambling nests. What do the nests do for you?  They are an engagement range and they can give parasite tokens and are a stack of wounds for the crew, but not for Nexus. The tokens are much less scary in this Nexus because they no longer let you treat the model as a friendly Cadmus. They also don't stack up anywhere near as well, since they can do at most 1 damage per activation to a model that can be reduced by shielding/stones. They do give you a boost in trying to hit the enemy another time, but that is probably not enough to make you worry about a nest hitting you, where as with Nexus 1 that was a big thing. 

Yes its a lot of wounds, but they are easier to kill than old nexus by a long way, with much less "gotcha" from parasite tokens. Viks 1 have 16 wounds, but they aren't seen as durable. 

Yes they can "Obey" 3 Cadmus models to charge.  But most Cadmus models aren't that good on the charge, and whilst you can make the same model charge 3 times if you are careful, it requires set up to get around the engagement.  The "obey" is restricted to general actions which is commonly a lot easier to achieve than normal actions and its fairly limited on targets. Outside of the ability to charge they can obey nexus models to walk, disengage, interact, focus and assist. You can't ever make The Archivist attack, or Meredith. 

 

I think this is a case that things look different on the table to on the card. The loss of the hive upgrade really makes the crew play in a very different way. 

It may end up being totally insane, but its not going to be insane in any way like Nexus 1 ( I think this pretty much answers just about every complaint about Nexus 1 except the Archivist. I'm sure it will raise its own complaints, but they will be totally different complaints. )

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

Yes they have 2 shambling nests. What do the nests do for you? 

It may end up being totally insane, but its not going to be insane in any way like Nexus 1 ( I think this pretty much answers just about every complaint about Nexus 1 except the Archivist. I'm sure it will raise its own complaints, but they will be totally different complaints. )

Well, you can make the nests interact.

Funnily enough, the biggest thing I thought when I saw the cards was "really, they get the ability to interact with insignificant models on both cards??"

So I think the nests are pretty vital for giving a way to interact without standing near the danger. You can still do things like claim turf war markers with them and then by the next turn they can't flip them back (and make excellent guards).

Of course we'll have to wait and see, but that particular ability really pushes the power level I think.

[Sweet Tooth]

Doesn’t the Gremlin Crier do the same thing for Bayou Gremlins on their Obey? Yes it’s a higher card needed, but the effect ignores all engagements. And new Som’er has the same trigger on Gremlin Raid. So it’s not exactly a new concept in the game, but it is low card intensity. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

42 minutes ago, Sweet Tooth said:

Doesn’t the Gremlin Crier do the same thing for Bayou Gremlins on their Obey? Yes it’s a higher card needed, but the effect ignores all engagements. And new Som’er has the same trigger on Gremlin Raid. So it’s not exactly a new concept in the game, but it is low card intensity. 

Well, yes, and people were calling for Som'er to get nerfed for ages before the crew got stomped by quite big nerfs.

Spamming tons of insignificant models that can interact is quite strong by itself (and it is just one of the things the Cadmus crew brings to the table).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Ugh.

I just played as Nexus 2 vs Lucius 2 on Leylines.

It was quite a close game with a victory to me, but my opponent was playing an extremely tight game and focusing on points, and I was just messing around testing out silly shenanigans (I even took Outflank for 2 points).

My list was:

• Three Nexus (leader with Flush with Cash) & 2 nests
• Beebe & Calypso
  • Being able to pick up a 4/5 of rams for Nexus is so stupidly good.
• Intrepid Emissary
  • He almost killed this turn 2, but black jokered it.
  • So instead it stayed alive until turn 5 until i killed it to deny detonate charges.
• Archivist
  • +2 initiative kept breaking the game
• Meredith
• Eyes and Ears (Upgraded to Husk turn 1, claimed a leyline and was a backup for Outflank to relieve pressure on Nexus).

The crew just has so. much. ap. And it is high quality AP! Hitting models with min 3 opa on nexus is pretty brutal (and the parasite token is even better than the damage in some cases). Commanding models 12" away to do an interact or something else is amazing. Healing on a charge was also super clutch. Etc.

At one point I just walked a Nexus 5 times (2 times end of turn, 3 times the next turn) just to tie up his leyline carrier. Just casually sparing a master to simply engage a model because why not?

My opponent took assassinate and detonate charges, so it was even a pretty bad pool for Nexus 2. I think Nexus 1 is probably better both on leylines and against assassinate. But still was pretty wild.

Time will tell, of course, but I'd say this Nexus is a definite candidate for S tier.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, and this scenario came up a lot:

• I try to hit you.
• I parasite you down
• Okay i miss
• You gain a parasite, take a damage, and i heal 1 ^.^

Well, like 2-3 times, but it was still enough.

[Korrok]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, and this scenario came up a lot:

• I try to hit you.
• I parasite you down
• Okay i miss
• You gain a parasite, take a damage, and i heal 1 ^.^

Well, like 2-3 times, but it was still enough.

That is the exact thing I can see just absolutely screwing with people with this nexus. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Korrok said:

That is the exact thing I can see just absolutely screwing with people with this nexus. 

Yeah, eventually people will learn to only attack their df if they can guarantee the hit...

But that is a hell of a defense in its own right...

[Korrok]

37 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, eventually people will learn to only attack their df if they can guarantee the hit...

But that is a hell of a defense in its own right...

Also imagine getting a parasite on a summoner. They cheat a 13 and use a stone to get their summon off. Nexus reduces it by 2. GG. 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Korrok said:

Also imagine getting a parasite on a summoner. They cheat a 13 and use a stone to get their summon off. Nexus reduces it by 2. GG. 

 

Lol, this could conceivably be done turn 1, but it'd be a heck of a sacrifice xD

[Adran]

3 hours ago, Korrok said:

Also imagine getting a parasite on a summoner. They cheat a 13 and use a stone to get their summon off. Nexus reduces it by 2. GG. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, and this scenario came up a lot:

• I try to hit you.
• I parasite you down
• Okay i miss
• You gain a parasite, take a damage, and i heal 1 ^.^

Well, like 2-3 times, but it was still enough.

These both sound like player mistakes. Sure, nexus makes the most of the mistakes, but it's like attacking justice with no hand and finding she killed you with reposting. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

36 minutes ago, Adran said:

 

These both sound like player mistakes. Sure, nexus makes the most of the mistakes, but it's like attacking justice with no hand and finding she killed you with reposting. 

The first time it was a bit of a mistake, but the times after that it was pretty necessary.

He scored assassinate with it, and then was trying to kill my nexus holding the lodestone turn 5.

I don't think it is a game-breaking ability, just an annoying one to play around/through.

It'll probably give a lot of salt though xD

It is also pretty hard that every time he wanted to secret passage, I was forcing him to use a 9 or made him fail the secret passage.

And since it doesn't eat the parasite if you don't reduce, provides a real challenge for crews that just need to cheat. So it is a semi-constant tax once fighting starts.

[Maniacal_cackle]

To clarify, the things that I think are probably overtuned (but have only played one game)

• The TNs are just so darn efficient (especially when you account for Beebe picking up two extra cards that are high enough to meet those TNs).
  • I think Beebe is probably a near auto-take in the pools you want this Nexus.
• The huge amount of AP just means you're able to find a way to do what you want to do.
  • Especially since the models can obey each other.
• The huge amount of AP puts out quite a bit of activation pressure.
  • When you throw in Archivist, the crew feels quite oppressive.

So overall, I think if we see nerfs to the ES super-friends, maybe this crew will feel a bit more reasonable (although still wildly powerful).

[muraki]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To clarify, the things that I think are probably overtuned (but have only played one game)

• The TNs are just so darn efficient (especially when you account for Beebe picking up two extra cards that are high enough to meet those TNs).
  • I think Beebe is probably a near auto-take in the pools you want this Nexus.
• The huge amount of AP just means you're able to find a way to do what you want to do.
  • Especially since the models can obey each other.
• The huge amount of AP puts out quite a bit of activation pressure.
  • When you throw in Archivist, the crew feels quite oppressive.

So overall, I think if we see nerfs to the ES super-friends, maybe this crew will feel a bit more reasonable (although still wildly powerful).

Feels like nexus is deep in a 'damned if you do/dont' path.  Not saying she's not generally ovetuned, but there's been so much ink spilt talking about how her og is op, that it felt like there were only 2 ways the secondary title was going to go, do something interesting and get hated on for being another op nexus, or punish it for og and make it worthless cause people don't like playing against the og form and don't mind that the 2nd title is something noone would want to play.

Surprisingly it seems to of fallen more to option 1 than 2, which is a good sign for me / the game.  Does the keyword still need nerfs to bring both forms into something more manageable? Sure, but least the devs / testers didn't seem to want to nerf the new keyword models into the ground cause 'theyre strong enough as it is, so they don't deserve anything worthwhile'

Which, is something I think the community needs to work more on with new stuff in general (nexus or not).  Posting threads about stuff being over/under tuned. Sure, go for it.  But they can easily turn into 'what were the devs even thinking, this is so fucking stupid' which just seems a shitty way to try and make a point as it just makes the community toxic.  As while getting models fun to play against is a noble idea, it has to be balanced with keeping them fun to play.

Not calling out anyone specifically (or even in this thread tbh), just more something to be aware of.  Constructive criticism / politeness beats expletive filled rant.

[touchdown]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To clarify, the things that I think are probably overtuned (but have only played one game)

• The TNs are just so darn efficient (especially when you account for Beebe picking up two extra cards that are high enough to meet those TNs).
  • I think Beebe is probably a near auto-take in the pools you want this Nexus.
• The huge amount of AP just means you're able to find a way to do what you want to do.
  • Especially since the models can obey each other.
• The huge amount of AP puts out quite a bit of activation pressure.
  • When you throw in Archivist, the crew feels quite oppressive.

So overall, I think if we see nerfs to the ES super-friends, maybe this crew will feel a bit more reasonable (although still wildly powerful).

With no real experience, every time I read about Nexus being OP it seems like the Archivist is the piece that moves it from really powerful to virtually unbeatable. I wouldn't mind if the next errata just nerfed it and lets see how it shakes out after that (especially given how much ook play the Archivist also sees)

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, muraki said:

Feels like nexus is deep in a 'damned if you do/dont' path.  Not saying she's not generally ovetuned, but there's been so much ink spilt talking about how her og is op, that it felt like there were only 2 ways the secondary title was going to go, do something interesting and get hated on for being another op nexus, or punish it for og and make it worthless cause people don't like playing against the og form and don't mind that the 2nd title is something noone would want to play.

Surprisingly it seems to of fallen more to option 1 than 2, which is a good sign for me / the game.  Does the keyword still need nerfs to bring both forms into something more manageable? Sure, but least the devs / testers didn't seem to want to nerf the new keyword models into the ground cause 'theyre strong enough as it is, so they don't deserve anything worthwhile'

There's a middle ground of "just make it a title that is in line with the power level of other crews." Granted, that would mean that many people would consider the title 'unplayable', but it'd probably be more in line when/if Nexus 1 got nerfed.

Otherwise you end up with a logic of "more powerful masters deserve more powerful titles", which doesn't make any sense to me.

They also could have errata-ed Cadmus before the title release, so there was a more grounded baseline for Cadmus 2, but there's logistical issues for that.

Of course, so far it is early days for Cadmus 2. It may not actually be overpowered/overtuned at all.

[Korrok]

7 hours ago, touchdown said:

With no real experience, every time I read about Nexus being OP it seems like the Archivist is the piece that moves it from really powerful to virtually unbeatable. I wouldn't mind if the next errata just nerfed it and lets see how it shakes out after that (especially given how much ook play the Archivist also sees)

I'm more in the camp of not nerfing archivist so much as just making it more expensive. Make the thing 10. I'd still bring it in keyword and ook is far less appealing at 11 stones. Don't change its health or anything. 

As for the power of the Nexi its hard to say yet. Still super early, but I'm excited to see how this new meta overall develops 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think the crew will probably still be overtuned if Archivist is nerfed, but Archivist is a great place to start.

Especially since it is taken by the whole faction, which is a huge red flag: one of the most powerful crews in the game with a keyword model that gets taken by the whole faction? Prime nerf candidate.

[Whut]

To note, Nexus2 comes with a few weaknesses compared to their original incarnation. Not saying they're weak by any means, but the original fear of "omg 21 Health & 9 master AP" isn't telling a full picture

1 - You can no longer ping damage onto enemies with Parasite tokens, meaning the crew officially doesn't have a main damage reduction ability, just one that spreads damage around - they probably need that many extra wounds

2 - They don't have nearly as much web creation, 6" placement effects, nor card draw through 3x Exoskeletal Connection with a Siphon. Will you risk naming Webs for a scheme when Archivist is your only source? Will you be taking Nightsilk? Will you take Cavatica for the card draw despite him not actually doing much that the crew needs?

3 - They no longer easily summon 3x Eyes & Ears on T1, followed by 3-6 more over the course of the game (and 3-4 of which will turn into Husks)

4 - Berserker Husks are just worse, especially in mobility. No exoskeletal connection, it's annoying at best to efficiently spread Parasites to friendlies for Husks' bonus action (you need to fail a df-targeting attack against a Nexus), and it's much harder for Meredith to replace one every turn since Webs, Corpses, and E&E are rarer. Also see #1, they no longer ping damage back for free as suicide chargers

Misc - No easy webs = no easy botanists, and botanists are insane. Meredith can no longer Rancid Transplant conditions from enemy models. The Cadmus obey enables scheming best, concentrating second, but not so much always charging - Cadmus models Mv values and melee attacking is actually quite poor. The crew has to watch out for blasts and shockwaves just as much as Nexus1, so regardless of which Nexus your opponent brings, that's an easy tech choice. The crew arguably relies much much more on Archivist as their main damage source than before, so just target and kill him if you get a chance, or force your opponent to overly protect him with Emissary - although Emissary doesn't get to benefit from Nexus' support actions.

---

Nexus1 was all about combat, attrition, and control. I believe Nexus2 is ideally played as a scheme runner on multiple fronts, at first moving entire crews 2" per action and by turn 2 splitting off into smaller bubbles or pairs. These smaller pockets of Cadmus models cannot participate in direct fights with dedicated run-down combat beasts (think VonSchill, Marcus Alpha, etc) nor can they usually participate in firefights - with the exception of Archivist.

Just my thoughts 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Interesting points @Whut, but what do you think about the non-keyword builds?

Previously you were sort  of locked into keyword by declaring Nexus I felt. Now you could just have your 3 nexus + 2 nests and that's enough synergy that you can spend the rest of the 50 stones on whatever you want (although obviously Archivist is worth snagging).

10 hours ago, Whut said:

The Cadmus obey enables scheming best, concentrating second, but not so much always charging - Cadmus models Mv values and melee attacking is actually quite poor. The crew has to watch out for blasts and shockwaves just as much as Nexus1, so regardless of which Nexus your opponent brings, that's an easy tech choice. The crew arguably relies much much more on Archivist as their main damage source than before, so just target and kill him if you get a chance, or force your opponent to overly protect him with Emissary - although Emissary doesn't get to benefit from Nexus' support actions.

I don't think the obey to charge should be overlooked. Since the Nexus models can obey each other, it is a good way to get charges in positions you otherwise could not - and those triggers can be super clutch. Importantly the rams trigger can heal non-keyword models, so you can heal Emissary back up for instance.

And since I think the OOK builds may be the mots common (particularly because they mean you can abuse people who build against Cadmus 1), I'm not sure the crew is particularly vulnerable to AOE.

The parasites also work super well with OOK models. You just parasite an enemy, and then good luck trying to kill the Emissary when you're losing 2 off your duel whenever the Cadmus player likes. The parasite mechanic in some ways offers even more defense than We Are Legion was my impression, as it protects even non-keyword models.

[Whut]

My whole point was in the direction of "this is a keyword which synergies surprisingly less with Cadmus models themselves"

Archivist is obviously worth taking. Nightsilk, not at all. Meredith is totally worth taking, but she'll want companions - forgoing a lot of value if you don't also hire 1-2 E&E as free Husks turn 1-2, which you'll be using alongside Nexus to parasite bomb from up to 12" away

And on OOK builds - definitely great with OOK, but still wants a solid base of Cadmus. This is a keyword with which I'll often take 2 Hopeful Prospects and establish a significant ranged danger zone. They can now be effectively Stat 6 and get their kills to become Spelleaters (and simultaneously summon an E&E). I also always take Intrepid, it's just too easy of a choice.

Nexus2 (at least in my book) ends up hiring a bunch of small models and can benefit a lot from the 4" pulse of 2" moves (easy to do 4+ times T1 for the Cadmus portion of the crew). Blasts and Shockwaves deter this tactic a LOT

[Korrok]

If multiple nexus use the join us trigger on the same model and it dies do you get one eyes and ears per trigger or just one? 

[Pallas4]

for me it's just one. I can argue with the wording but if the model is Replaced by a E&E... he's not on table anymore and can't be replaced. ^^

See bellow

 

I tested this version twice (but did a mistake on rules second time).

Strengths.
A large number of actions (3 per master and 2 per totem that's 13).
A defense that can do damage especially if the attacker already has a parasite.
Several ways to heal yourself.
Good mobility of the crew.

Weaknesses
No WAL
No defense on Wp, Mv and Sz (especially).
The main Df mechanism doesn't work if you can't use Df trigger (masked agent for example)
Few Wounds. So a heavy hitter can kill one in one activation

Note sure if advancing a Nexus alone is a good idea or not but it can be a good scheme runner with Treasure Map. Anyway, there is much less E&E which makes Meredith less useful. I think risking a parasite can be a deterrent but I think there are ways to get past it... attacking on WP (quite effective on some of the Cadmus crew by the way), doing blasts or shockwaves (especially on the Mv in the case of Nexus 2) for example.

I need to test more.

 

[Adran]

Its not a replace action. As far as I can see you could get multiple summons off the one death. Auras and Abilities on the model aren't cumulative, but random unnamed effects have nothing to stop multiple occuring. 

See the FAQ on Challenge action. 

[Pallas4]

Oh you're right, I made a shortcut in my head since I never had the case.