A Kaeris bird

[HomelessOne]

Sounds like Resser gaslighting to me!

(Seriously though, thanks for the feedback M_C)

[dancater]

On 8/12/2021 at 6:01 AM, Thatguy said:

Still if you stack enough burning, you could potentially triple Rampage for three charges a turn. Lol

Would the "moves through the target" be read as Kaeris must cross, in some portion, her base with the opponent? That's my reading so you could narrowly clip an opponent.

The alternative is that Kaeris' base, all of it, must cross all of the opponents base. Which I don't think is the right reading. This has connotations where a 5" push across a 50mm (god I wish we would just commit to metric worldwide, I'm looking at you America) base where that large base opponent has reach and the push will not fully clear engagement.

The thought of fire storming an enemy master is deLightful, if Kaeris has Burning 3, charge (1) enemy master attack select Rampage, push through master out of engagement, re-charge (2) enemy master attack select Rampage, push through master out of engagement, re-charge (3) enemy master on third charge select for Smoulder trigger, then use scorching radiance for the finale. Seems that would be fun. 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I do also think that she is terrible game design as she stands now.

I can see this. I'm wondering how she'll fare against condition removal or crews which ignore burning in some way, but that certainly narrows the play-in against her, to narrow imo. That's the question. Need more potential reasonable counters than Molly and Reva in rezzers for example. 

Having said that, one game does not lock the play. So far several of the new masters have obvious play but seem tricky, I think Kaeris is the reverse, in this incarnation she is raw damage, which is the simplest to grasp playstyle, so she'll roll hard while opponents struggle to learn counters.

Terrain/marker destruction (destroying her Pyre Markers) would also seem useful. 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I swapped to trying to kill her (possibly too late?)

Curious to see how she would survive a truly planned and executed alpha strike.      

Also need to review all the scheme/strat/dropped marker rules etc. As killy as she is, and there are several hideous damage masters (OG Nekima springs to mind) this is Malifaux, so how good is her crew build for scheming?

The Deacon does seem great, but he is not massively durable so near the Golem he's an obvious target. He is also ground bound and Mv5 so doubt he'll be close to Kaeris if she goes thermo-nuclear.

Question on Firestarter, always like the little arsonist, but find he has limited play in OG Kaeris, what is his potential with the Phoenix (lets be honest here). Same questions apply to Firebrands, which I've never really seen a great use for over alternatives and Fire Gamin which are at best OK in OG Kaeris. Obviously OG Kaeris is a different beast to Phoenix, but how different will the crew options be? How much will Deacon impact crew selection viability? I want to use more models in more places basically. 

Also, lots of Burning Man reference, is Kaeris drifting into the nihilistic Neverborn cult? Seems so.

[HomelessOne]

A Master from each faction has been corrupted by the Burning Man upon its return to Malifaux from the other side.

[solkan]

28 minutes ago, dancater said:

Would the "moves through the target" be read as Kaeris must cross, in some portion, her base with the opponent? That's my reading so you could narrowly clip an opponent.

The alternative is that Kaeris' base, all of it, must cross all of the opponents base. Which I don't think is the right reading. This has connotations where a 5" push across a 50mm (god I wish we would just commit to metric worldwide, I'm looking at you America) base where that large base opponent has reach and the push will not fully clear engagement.

I think it's necessary to hold Kaeris or any other model to the standard that you would hold a moving hazardous terrain marker.  Or, for that matter, the numerous models that have Blade Rush.  Or Incorporeal ("This model can move through other models and vice versa.")

"through" in no way is restricted to 'the two objects must at some point completely overlap each other'.

[dancater]

39 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

A Master from each faction has been corrupted by the Burning Man upon its return to Malifaux from the other side.

Yep, which has interesting implications. Will this be simply story and master title theme connected? Or will it have wider in-game implications with new keyword/faction options? 

Is the Burning Man Neverborn or a harbinger of some much darker ideal. Is this the potential next future faction?

And what of the Burning Man himself and his potential as a master and crew? Will this happen? 

[dancater]

33 minutes ago, solkan said:

"through" in no way is restricted to 'the two objects must at some point completely overlap each other'.

As I thought when reading, clipping is in and Rampage is immensely flexible.

[HomelessOne]

The Burning Man is essentially 1.5 Tyrants in one body, the result of the Governor-General’s sabotaged ascension ritual near the end of 2e. By virtue of his Tyrant-ness ol’ Burny is inherently an arch nemesis of the Neverborn, and the psychological threat he poses just by looking at him is a grave danger to everybody.

He’s probably outside the scope of playable Master and comprehension as a written character, though we do have playable Tyrants already in the game so it isn’t impossible.

[Azahul]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just played against @Zilthas with him using new Kaeris and me using McMourning.

My first impression is that she is at least on English Ivan power level - build around her or die.

First turn I managed to avoid being nuked by her unresisted 4 damage with last moment shenanigans (so she passed it to Elijah), and I managed to kill his lodestone carrier with McMourning.

Second turn it all fell apart. I ended McMourning's activation within 13" of Deacon, so McMourning got translocated into killing distance of Kaeris. Kaeris killed him in one activation through stones (although she did get a red joker from memory). Also easily killed my dead rider (I think with Elijah).

Then end of turn 2, Kaeris one-shot a nurse with 6 damage with Scorching Radiance (which we ruled as ignoring hidden martyrs, since it was 'instead of' the burning damage? Not sure). By this point in the game it was just impossible to not have something near her, so letting a nurse die seemed fine.

Definitely some mispositioning issues on my part, but we called it on turn 3 after the Kaeris activation. She activated and did something like 11 damage in her activation as well as spewing out a ton of pyre markers.

Her damage potential is insane, being a built in min-4 in many circumstances. There's some ways to counter it, but if she starts her activation unengaged in a pyre marker, she melts everything near her.

I swapped to trying to kill her (possibly too late?) but between her self-healing, her shielded and counterspell from magical training, her mobility, and hard to wound, she was actually extremely difficult to make progress on.

Would be interesting to face her with Molly (who is extremely solid into the Kaeris matchup), but my first impression is I'd probably put her at least in Ivan's ballpark - possibly not broken, but very powerful.

She actually struck me as very similar in output to Titania, who (assuming Killjoy) has an unresistable 4 damage bonus and frequently throws out Min 4 or higher attacks. As a rule Titania requires more set-up and her unresisted damage is capped, but Titania can do her work at a safer range behind concealing severe terrain and I would assume lives longer as a result.

[retnab]

50 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

He’s probably outside the scope of playable Master and comprehension as a written character, though we do have playable Tyrants already in the game so it isn’t impossible.

I'd say he's 0.01% chance of being playable, TOS describes him as not really sentient anymore, just acting out of instinct more than anything

[Rufess]

It would be funny though if a story encounter that one side playing regular crew against another side playing a single model of the full power Tyrant.

[clockworkspide]

As I recall, there's a story in an old Wyrd Chronicles from earlyish 2E that features Rasputina ambushing Sonnia to steal the mask she was using to lock Cherufe away.  Cherufe starts manifesting mid-fight and basically obliterates Raspy's whole strike team simultaneously.

[NoisyAssassin]

Yeah, he turns an area about the size of a full apartment block into a glassed crater the second the mask comes off. And Sonnia's new title is 'Unmasked', implying that that's the power level she should be wielding. 

So it's, uh, a little inconsistent.

[Azahul]

9 minutes ago, NoisyAssassin said:

Yeah, he turns an area about the size of a full apartment block into a glassed crater the second the mask comes off. And Sonnia's new title is 'Unmasked', implying that that's the power level she should be wielding. 

So it's, uh, a little inconsistent.

Isn't Sonnia taking the mask off because she isn't possessed anymore?

[HomelessOne]

Yeah, she lost Cherufe to the creation of The Burning Man in late 2e. Sonnia’s 3e profile says she wears the mask for psychological effect…and her immense, lingering trauma from the possession.

[dannydb]

Plus wasn't she disfigured from the event, resulting in a Dr (I believe mcmoring but could be wrong) having to rebuild her face 

[clockworkspide]

19 minutes ago, dannydb said:

Plus wasn't she disfigured from the event, resulting in a Dr (I believe mcmoring but could be wrong) having to rebuild her face 

Yeah, that was McMourning.

[Plaag]

great art, but awful title-she means to be in melee battle, but she cannt survive there, also some stupid actions-drop pyre and move models, why not rework them with some action, like light under their feet with trigger for stagger and drop pyre, focused attention

as i told-kaeris crew have many mv duels, but only one stagger in faction-kandara, so all those duels without stagger are not effective

also why sonia have blast on min dmg, while kaeris have only on mod, max-in arcanists we have no focus stacking

[Thatguy]

8 hours ago, Plaag said:

great art, but awful title-she means to be in melee battle, but she cannt survive there, 

She's got D6, 12 wounds, Hard to Wound, a self heal, and Soulstones. 

What more do you want?

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, Plaag said:

great art, but awful title-she means to be in melee battle, but she cannt survive there, also some stupid actions-drop pyre and move models, why not rework them with some action, like light under their feet with trigger for stagger and drop pyre, focused attention

as i told-kaeris crew have many mv duels, but only one stagger in faction-kandara, so all those duels without stagger are not effective

also why sonia have blast on min dmg, while kaeris have only on mod, max-in arcanists we have no focus stacking

If you attack twice with a single negative to damage, you have like a ~64% chance to have at least one of them be moderate.

So she hits moderate more than you'd think.

Although I've only played against her once, but getting her markers down did not seem to be an issue.

[Plaag]

4 hours ago, Thatguy said:

She's got D6, 12 wounds, Hard to Wound, a self heal, and Soulstones. 

What more do you want?

armor like lady j

we have many models, even masters with same def techs(like mcmorning), but they cannt survive enough to be effective, also mcmorning have healing on his atack stat 7, and on poison, while kaeris can be hit by several models and be placed away/buried to die from her burning

[Plaag]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you attack twice with a single negative to damage, you have like a ~64% chance to have at least one of them be moderate.

So she hits moderate more than you'd think.

Although I've only played against her once, but getting her markers down did not seem to be an issue.

hoping to find mod on negatives is a bad way to play-u must not bet all on luck

her markers are ignorable now, while sonia have them not-ignorable severe!

i played her several times-and im saying all of this because of game exp-she is my greatest disapointment in titles, cannt find any game situation where i will take title, not common one

[Jordon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QemmjRdQ3hI

Just finished watching this video using new Kaeris. It was a good report and one that showed what happens when you go all in on Scorching Radiance. Some of my thoughts.

Ignoring Scorching Radiance for a second, I do think Kaeris is mostly fine. She seems to work well with her crew and certainly has a different feel about her from her original form. She has lots of ping damage on top of the already plentiful ping damage from burning. Pyre markers themselves don't really seem as brutal and mainly serve to fuel her own models. 

Okay so let's talk about Scorching Radiance. 

On the one hand, if you watch this report, it takes the entire crew to put Kaeris onto burning 30+ turn one. This basically means she's one shoting most non masters in the game each turn. The drawbacks however are not inconsequential as it basically means your playing a turn down in a crew that's already not that great at scoring.

The other drawbacks are with condition removal and repositioning. Now condition removal is a bit more difficult now that we have access to Deacon. That being said, it can be difficult to keep up with the mobility of Kaeris and his WP of 4 makes him pretty trivial to lure (or anything that causes movement through WP). If you do manage to remove burning from Kaeris, then you made that entire turn basically a write off and an absolutely massive setback for Kaeris. 

Kaeris herself is only WP5 and without access to Blaze of Glory, she's also pretty easy to push around. Alternatively you can always move your own models out of the way as well to ignore the nuke of damage. If you manage to reposition Kaeris or remove her targets, she's forced to bomb herself or a friendly model. Spending an entire turn in your deployment just to do 10 damage to yourself is basically game over. Even if you do manage to successfully pull off a big nuke, it potentially opens her up to some nasty retaliation on the following turn. Also there is the rare immolates that you need to be careful of as well. 

So I see movement tricks as the true kryptonite of this Kaeris. Condition removal is a big threat as well, but can be somewhat mitigated with Deacon. So this kind of Kaeris nuke assassination seems very much like a very high risk high reward. I'm not sure if it's necessarily a problem once you know what to expect, but it sure as hell might feel bad against the unexperienced. 

Again, I'm not sure it needs fixing right out of the gate. Maybe she needs some time in the open to see how if it's actually as bad as it first appears. Maybe it's more of a trap then it's worth. 

Either way, I don't really like the suggestion of capping it as I feel like it's boring and doesn't really give any incentive to keep the burning going. This is crazy Kaeris and I actually really like the whole risk/reward theme as it seems to fit the idea of getting carried away. 

If it were deemed a problem, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like the old "dumb luck" trigger from gremlins. Something where she takes half of the damage she deals. This would mean that you need to play a lot more calculated and not just immediately try and load her up as much as humanly possible. You probably would want to keep it contained and rely on fire branded to keep it in check. This to me feels like it finds a nice middle ground, while also incentivizing fire branded. 

Just my $0.02

[dancater]

31 minutes ago, Jordon said:

This basically means she's one shoting most non masters in the game each turn. The drawbacks however are not inconsequential as it basically means your playing a turn down in a crew that's already not that great at scoring.

This is the crux.

Malifaux is not usually about the crush, kill, destroy; winning in Faux is much, much more complex then most other games where hammer to face is the strategy, if not the only strategy the dominant one.

So I think that this is the weakness of Kaeris Reborn, sure stack her for mega-flame, but meanwhile you fall behind on table position and the actual objectives. Kill with fire but lose with tactics. 

Of course this relies on (1) a non-killing dominated scheme/strat pool, which is very apparent in GG2 and generally is fairly normal in most Malifaux GG iterations and pools. But still with Kaeris Reborn this will be an issue, although even in a pure killing pool the one turn lost to prepping the nuclear fire may allow an opponent to kill you harder anyway. (2) Of course it also relies on your opponent actually focussing on the schemes & strats to secure the win and not getting rattled or drawn into a firestorm of death which only works into Kaeris Reborn's plan. But again this is not unique to Kaeris the nuanced strategies of Malifaux always rely on an opponent not losing track of the VP's in favour of the bloody model exchange, so if someone loses track of how to win and let's me burn them to ash with Reborn fury, well that's on them. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think the sweet spot for Kaeris is doing ~6 unresisted damage.

This is an insane amount of damage to get incidentally with no flip. It is basically no work for Kaeris to get to that point by turn 2 (since she generates so much burning hopping through pyre markers).

If the opponent wants to, they can work really hard to make it so Kaeris ends up hitting herself, but then you can stone away a good portion of it (or if you can drop it on a friend, drop it to 0-2 damage in many cases).

[Jinn]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think the sweet spot for Kaeris is doing ~6 unresisted damage.

This is an insane amount of damage to get incidentally with no flip. It is basically no work for Kaeris to get to that point by turn 2 (since she generates so much burning hopping through pyre markers).

If the opponent wants to, they can work really hard to make it so Kaeris ends up hitting herself, but then you can stone away a good portion of it (or if you can drop it on a friend, drop it to 0-2 damage in many cases).

Honestly, as a Kaeris player, I really don't like the swingy nature of the ability. Sure, for some crews it's hard to move her, but for others it's pretty trivial and, as you said, the burning builds up quickly due to her always wanting to move/charge into pyres (which gives Burning +2 per charge). A Master like new Lady J, new Pandora, or new Yan Lo, or a model like Thirty Three with Incorporeal and Pine Box, or anyone with Scatter, or a model with I've Got Your Back can cause you to consistently take the Radiance damage on Kaeris if you don't force last activation. It may not be a problem on turn 1 or 2, but even if you're playing her without trying to build up burning you'll probably be getting up there in the later turns.

It feels really really bad having to intentionally ignore your playstyle and schtick (and ignore her weird version of flight, basically) to just play in these matchups, and it is certainly going to feel even worse for your opponent if they don't have one of these counters. I wish they'd remove it to be honest. Instead, maybe let her heal from burning (plus reduce it by amount healed), and give her the Flare Up ability from Deacon's card. Or something completely different, like make it a simple duel to resist it for enemies but allow it to heal or move her rather than damage her. Make the ability not so horribly one sided against whoever gets hit by it.

I definitely agree that this kind of ability (it's also on the Corpse Curator) seems problematic for the game, in part due to the lack of a cap.