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First impressions of the new Molly


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6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, the Transmortis card draw ability is actually once per activation per model. For instance, both Anna Lovelace and Valedictorian can draw a card in a single activation (for instance, if an enemy attacks them both).

So the phrasing of Molly's abiity is a little ambiguous (each model has a once per activation thing? Or Molly can hand out the cheat once per activation?)

I'm leaning towards Molly can hand out one cheat per activation.

No it is not. There is no "per model" passage in the ability. The ability just happens to be on each Transmortis model and therefore (assuming you take Transmortis-only models) works like it were, but those are still two different instances of the ability, not one.

For example, if a model would cause two separate duels with Transmortis models A and B, you could use Studied Opponent A and Studied Opponent B. But this still means you trigger two separate abilities from two models. If the same model would cause two separate duels for Transmortis model A and one Versatile model, you could draw cards only from Studied Opponent A, because B never got triggered and you can't just cause a Versatile model to draw cards out of thin air. That's clear cut.

Molly only has max. one instance of her ability though. Therefore, no matter how many duels the opponent's model might cause in a single activation, she can cause another of her models to flip to cheat only once.

Nothing in the last quote disagress with this. The first two line very clearly not. "a given model could, for example, take multiple once per Activation effects so long as they were on different Actions or Abilities" doesn't apply for Molly, since it's all the same ability. "Additionally, multiple models that have the same Action [...]" applies to the Studied Opponent example and is the difference to Molly, since the ability exists only on her, a single model. I can only guess some people think she adds an ability to her models (like McM2 somewhat can), but she doesn't. She just allows them to do a specific game effect.

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I don't have a problem either way, but just reading the ability, I'd be inclined to lean towards the 'per model' interpretation. Reason being is says 'friendly Forgotten models'. It would have been very easy to say something like 'one friendly model in range' instead if that were the case. 

This is a Master's Bonus action after all (and her only bonus action), so it should be a good action. I've never much liked 2-card bayou for important models. Cheating from the top of the deck is fine as long as I don't really care if I succeed or not, but important flips I'll still cheat normally. It also helps with her crew's need to discard a lot, but isn't guaranteed to help all the time. 

Definitely hope they FAQ it just to be clear. I can kind of see the arguments for either interpretation.

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  • 2 weeks later...
59 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Okay, I think I'm mentally ready to play Molly 2, so will try to get a game in this week.

The main thing I want to do is use positive reinforcement to focus her, attack with leading baton...

Set up flip...

And go "Bippity... Bopppity... BOO!!!!" When I smack them for 6 with my baton.

In my mind, weak & moderate damage is a baton bonk, but the severa damage is a stab to the eye of something :D
That would explain the sudden increase of damage ^^

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Was playing with some possible lists, and found a nice synergy with Forgotten Marshal I hadn't realized before. Whisper allows you set-up a possible summon and card draw with Remember the Lost. Not sure if the probability is high enough to make it competitive, but changing the summon from down 1 card to up 1 card seems fun! At the very least, it has me wanting to put the model on the table for the first time.

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Played Molly 2 for the first time today!

At one point I shifted a Night Terror 15 inches during Molly's activation 😂

I took a full keyword crew on flank Break the Line against Maxine 2:

  • Archie
  • Noxious Nephilim
  • Philip and the nanny
  • Rabble Riser
  • Night Terror
  • Night Terror

I felt like the Rabble Riser, Philip, Noxious Neph, and maybe one of the Night Terrors was largely pointless. Noxious and Rabble Riser just die so easily for what they do. Philip is situationally useful as before, but doesn't fit into the 'bubble with Molly' plan at all (and so is probably worse with this Molly than the last one).

Night terrors seem fantastic, it is so easy to give them extra movement. Except that doesn't really pay off for most of this gaining grounds... Mayyyybe in break the line + spread them out or break the line + breakthrough? They can easily solo a break the line marker if left alone, but that's a big ask.

Extra healing for Archie is nice, but the leap is less consistent unless you really work to dig for it, which doesn't feel good with this Molly...

I think going keyword to try to get card draw off her bonus just doesn't work. Better to just hire models that are more efficient to begin with.

I think Molly 2 might be destined for another Gaining Ground, but will have to keep trying her. She may feel a LOT better out of keyword.

Molly's activations usually felt okay. She can always start disengaged which is nice (and gets at least one free discard). She can scheme pretty well, and I can imagine her ram trigger to get interacts will come up a lot. Crow trigger on baton is also pretty great, allowing you to cycle any low crow + another card, and get a fading.

But... It felt like she was just doing these shenanigans, and then the opponent was like "mass of tentacles you 6 times, your crew melts".

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8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Played Molly 2 for the first time today!

At one point I shifted a Night Terror 15 inches during Molly's activation 😂

I took a full keyword crew on flank Break the Line against Maxine 2:

  • Archie
  • Noxious Nephilim
  • Philip and the nanny
  • Rabble Riser
  • Night Terror
  • Night Terror

I felt like the Rabble Riser, Philip, Noxious Neph, and maybe one of the Night Terrors was largely pointless. Noxious and Rabble Riser just die so easily for what they do. Philip is situationally useful as before, but doesn't fit into the 'bubble with Molly' plan at all (and so is probably worse with this Molly than the last one).

Night terrors seem fantastic, it is so easy to give them extra movement. Except that doesn't really pay off for most of this gaining grounds... Mayyyybe in break the line + spread them out or break the line + breakthrough? They can easily solo a break the line marker if left alone, but that's a big ask.

Extra healing for Archie is nice, but the leap is less consistent unless you really work to dig for it, which doesn't feel good with this Molly...

I think going keyword to try to get card draw off her bonus just doesn't work. Better to just hire models that are more efficient to begin with.

I think Molly 2 might be destined for another Gaining Ground, but will have to keep trying her. She may feel a LOT better out of keyword.

Molly's activations usually felt okay. She can always start disengaged which is nice (and gets at least one free discard). She can scheme pretty well, and I can imagine her ram trigger to get interacts will come up a lot. Crow trigger on baton is also pretty great, allowing you to cycle any low crow + another card, and get a fading.

But... It felt like she was just doing these shenanigans, and then the opponent was like "mass of tentacles you 6 times, your crew melts".

I think Break the Line might be the worst strategy for new Molly/Terrors since it’s not a one and done move/interact. For Symbols, you’ve got a 10” move and an Interact while engaged. Most crews might find that difficult/impossible to stop. For Ley Lines, Molly can move the Lodestone to the necessary Terror and push to to an unclaimed marker. Even Turf War benefits from them more-so than Break, one end of turn marker flip scores a VP. Main point is the strategy will work well with single interacts and playing an aggressive sacrificial game. Probably the exact opposite to how Molly1 is played, but that can be a real advantage in forcing the opponent to guess if playing vs denial or aggression.

For schemes, there are 7 which can be trivial to score the reveal in a last activation for Molly/Terror(s): Breakthrough, Detonate Charges, Death Beds, Catch and Release, Outflank, Spread them Out, Bait and Switch. Hidden Martyrs should also be amazing, since they have to kill the Terror that you flung last turn or risk giving up more VP. 

In my mind Molly is going to be last activation 90% of the time T2+, and the other 10% will be Molly followed by Terror as last activation. I’ll probably only use Remember the Lost earlier during T1 or if I’ve got a couple Whispers on Forgotten models (probably Archie/Molly).

This Molly does still seem stronger with Versatile models since her only reason for staying largely in keyword is… underwhelming. Realistically most crews are better as a keyword twist on the faction All-Stars lineup, so not much surprise there. Core will probably be closer to just Archie & 1-4 Terrors (depending on how VP aggressive you want to run). What versatile models do you think work better with new Molly vs old Molly? 

In regards to Nox, what was the main durability problem? Also do you see Nox as better or worse in old Molly compared to new Molly after having played with new?

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Fair points, I'll try her on Symbols next! Although it is hard to imagine someone better thaa Yan Lo 2 for that strategy, maybe against Don't Mind Me factions. I suppose it is nice that you don't know which Molly you're facing for symbols.

7 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

This Molly does still seem stronger with Versatile models since her only reason for staying largely in keyword is… underwhelming. Realistically most crews are better as a keyword twist on the faction All-Stars lineup, so not much surprise there. Core will probably be closer to just Archie & 1-4 Terrors (depending on how VP aggressive you want to run). What versatile models do you think work better with new Molly vs old Molly? 

So far I can't think of many versatile models that might work better with her than Molly 1 (as Molly 1's card draw is so much better IMO, although maybe there is a balance to be had. Anna Lovelace seems like she might be better (since Molly 1 can kidnap models and reposition them easier, Anna stops them from being rescued).

Maybe she is a bit less reliant on Dead Rider since she can do the repositioning herself, but her attack feels pretty anemic on enemies...

7 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

In regards to Nox, what was the main durability problem? Also do you see Nox as better or worse in old Molly compared to new Molly after having played with new?

Archie has leap and can leverage positioning to survive. AND has terrifying 12.

Rogue Necromancy can be more useful from a range (projectile vomit does so much work) and has terrifying and hard to kill.

Noxious Neph, on the other hand, has the least defensive tech AND the least ability to leverage funky positioning (although maybe Bring It is meant to address that, I don't really see it).

Archie can be 18" from the action and still attack twice. Noxious has to be within 7" of the action to attack twice.

That said, I could see Noxious Neph perhaps being okay in Molly 1, because activation control gives extra survivability.

Also the corpse. You really want a 9 stone model to have a useful bonus action, so I think Noxious Neph is primarily a consideration when you need a corpse producer (Nephilim for 9 stones is wayyyyy better than gravedigger for 6 stones in most cases I think).

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4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fair points, I'll try her on Symbols next! Although it is hard to imagine someone better thaa Yan Lo 2 for that strategy, maybe against Don't Mind Me factions. I suppose it is nice that you don't know which Molly you're facing for symbols.

So far I can't think of many versatile models that might work better with her than Molly 1 (as Molly 1's card draw is so much better IMO, although maybe there is a balance to be had. Anna Lovelace seems like she might be better (since Molly 1 can kidnap models and reposition them easier, Anna stops them from being rescued).

Maybe she is a bit less reliant on Dead Rider since she can do the repositioning herself, but her attack feels pretty anemic on enemies...

Archie has leap and can leverage positioning to survive. AND has terrifying 12.

Rogue Necromancy can be more useful from a range (projectile vomit does so much work) and has terrifying and hard to kill.

Noxious Neph, on the other hand, has the least defensive tech AND the least ability to leverage funky positioning (although maybe Bring It is meant to address that, I don't really see it).

Archie can be 18" from the action and still attack twice. Noxious has to be within 7" of the action to attack twice.

That said, I could see Noxious Neph perhaps being okay in Molly 1, because activation control gives extra survivability.

Also the corpse. You really want a 9 stone model to have a useful bonus action, so I think Noxious Neph is primarily a consideration when you need a corpse producer (Nephilim for 9 stones is wayyyyy better than gravedigger for 6 stones in most cases I think).

I think Nox is more supposed to be support/counter-punch piece than another mobile beater, and having him hang around Molly to protect her with Protected or Rancid Smell while filtering 2+ cards per turn might be a better way to use it. Probably better in Molly 1 to provide markers for draw and keep focused attacks on a negative flip, min filter 2 and draw 2 cards a turn is pretty good.

I don’t really have plans to use Nox as much of a forward beater in any of my to-try lists, and I think Nox’s claws will see little use for me outside of finishing off a nearby model. To be fair, I’m more looking forward to trying Nox in Outcast Nephilim than either Molly. As you’ve pointed out, Archie and Necromancy provide great strengths to Forgotten that Nox doesn’t quite meet.

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I don't think Molly 1 needs the markers for draw (crooligans do a better job of providing those while also doing tons of other useful stuff).

Rancid Smell I wasn't a fan of - if they are within 4 of your Noxious Neph, they're probably going to be punching it as a priority anyway.

Molly 2 is so mobile, I can't imagine staying near the Noxious Neph. She was generally ping-ponging around from model to model (although honestly didn't really need to use protected anyway since she has self-heal, mobility, and there's much higher priority targets unless assassination is in the pool).

I just can't see a world where I want Noxious Nephilim over Anna Lovelace/Valedictorian/Grave Golem/Archie/Necromancy/Manos/Rider/everything else in that weight class. Or even Students of Viscera/Hanged/etc sort of models at that 9 stone slot.

If Rancid Smell gave a minus to attacking him, I would love him as a tarpit. As is, I struggle to see using it. Maybe Molly could tie stuff up in melee while she covers with her aura?

Merits a few more attempts, but I'm not hopeful. Although if I ever need Bete Noire, Noxious Neph seems like a great call. Again, if you're getting proper value out of Noxious Neph's bonus, then it finally seems worthwhile to me.

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On 9/17/2021 at 11:00 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

But... It felt like she was just doing these shenanigans, and then the opponent was like "mass of tentacles you 6 times, your crew melts".

That's more an issue with mass of tentacles being one of the best triggers out there imo. At least it hits friendlies too, so Maxine has to be careful. And on Calypso/Bebe you don't even get a chance to resist as it can Thriller Driller to use it. And with Reconfigure, any Tome in hand will get the Trigger. 

I will say I'm not sold on Noxious Nephilim. I think they thought Memories in Blood and Last Memory were big deals and I'm not sold for just card cycle. If Rancid Smell were a Bonus Action, I'd like him a lot more, as I don't always want/need another Corpse especially at the cost of 2dmg. So he effectively doesn't have a Bonus some turns and that sucks for a 9ss model. A Df5 for a 9ss model wouldn't have hurt either. 

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2 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

That's more an issue with mass of tentacles being one of the best triggers out there imo. At least it hits friendlies too, so Maxine has to be careful. And on Calypso/Bebe you don't even get a chance to resist as it can Thriller Driller to use it. And with Reconfigure, any Tome in hand will get the Trigger. 

In my mind it is more an example of where the power level of the game is atm (there's plenty of other crews just as lethal as Maxine 2). And this GG really rewards lethal crews imo.

2 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

I will say I'm not sold on Noxious Nephilim. I think they thought Memories in Blood and Last Memory were big deals and I'm not sold for just card cycle. If Rancid Smell were a Bonus Action, I'd like him a lot more, as I don't always want/need another Corpse especially at the cost of 2dmg. So he effectively doesn't have a Bonus some turns and that sucks for a 9ss model. A Df5 for a 9ss model wouldn't have hurt either. 

Yeah, sums it up pretty well.

Couldn't give him Df 5, though. Molly has five enforcers/henchmen other than her totem, and they all share a theme of Df 4. So it is thematic to keep it at df 4 ;)

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15 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Couldn't give him Df 5, though. Molly has five enforcers/henchmen other than her totem, and they all share a theme of Df 4. So it is thematic to keep it at df 4 ;)

Screw theme! ;) Honestly, make Rancid Smell a Bonus and suddenly he's a lot better - worth his cost then as he can do his support role stuff and still try and get 2 attacks/turn. Or he needed another Bonus as you don't always need/want a corpse. 

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41 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Screw theme! ;) Honestly, make Rancid Smell a Bonus and suddenly he's a lot better - worth his cost then as he can do his support role stuff and still try and get 2 attacks/turn. Or he needed another Bonus as you don't always need/want a corpse. 

I’d rather the effect affect Nox as well, also boosting Bring It as a result. There are plenty of 9ss models which have a bonus action that you don’t want to or can’t use every turn. Rancid Smell’s effect being stronger is worth the potential lost offense. Even as a bonus action, Rancid Smell still has the issue of a beater with Focus wiping the floor with Nox. 

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6 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I don't know, if it affected him too, then that with HtW would make him darn near impossible to kill. I wouldn't say no to a longer range though. 6" would be nice and let it actually, maybe, work.

The weakness would be Nox would need to activate early typically and still succeed the flip, so worse than manipulative in most aspects for self defense. The self damage support abilities and a lack of more defensive tech really forces Nox to be used as a subpar beater with incidental support instead of a support with incidental beats. If you end an Activation at 6 health, Nox is basically dead to any Min 3 beater.

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43 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

If you end an Activation at 6 health, Nox is basically dead to any Min 3 beater.

You can say that about a lot of model though. :) 

I agree wholeheartedly that Nox just doesn't seem all there. He's missing something to make him worth the cost. I still want to try him out more though. Rancid Smell might mean he takes a couple of hits instead of other potentially more important models. Flight has some advantages, but Archie has Leap.... Maybe there's more play with Bring It than I expect, but I don't see it. 

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