The Viks, twin blades. And kenshiro.

[Zebo]

Eeem sorry but that is a nonsense. 

Boxing two masters of two different factions together, and adding to the box a shared miniature is a nasty play from Wyrd. 

 

2 hours ago, Burnin4tor said:

if you want to play well in tournaments and have depth you almost need 3-4 crews in your stable.

I haven't seen any tournament in wich you can play more than one faction, so those boxes don't help in any means in your variety of options. 

 

You even can't share the box with a friend, because both are going to want the shared miniature. 

 

It's highly probable that I'll end buying some (if not all) of the boxes with Outcast masters. But then surely I'm gonna have a bunch of models that I don't have any interest in. 

[Burnin4tor]

3 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Boxing two masters of two different factions together, and adding to the box a shared miniature is a nasty play from Wyrd. 

We don’t have confirmation that’s how they’re being sold yet. But if that is the case, oh no I end up with one miniature per crew that I can’t use? Some game companies lock your (required) updated army rule book inside of a $345 box set with no models that you need that sells out anyway. 
Also I think you misread me, I wasn’t saying that having multiple alt masters in a box would help as you need multiple crews for tournaments. Obviously you can’t use different factions within the same event.

[Azahul]

It does seem very likely that two Masters and a shared model is how they'll be boxing the Titles. Unfortunately there aren't many better ways to do it. A box of just the new Masters would be one of the more expensive box sets Wyrd has out (roughly on par with with the Crossroads Seven) and would create issues with dual-Faction Masters since it's unlikely they'd want to duplicate those models. Even if they split the dual faction Masters off into their own box you're still ending up with several models you can't use, and that's before getting to the dual Keyword models. There's simply no way to package them that wouldn't create a scenario where you end up with a bucket of models you can't use. If I buy the Ten Thunders set of dual Keyword models to get my hands on Kenshiro, I'm going to get several other Ten Thunders models I can't hire, and I'll need to repeat that process 2-4 times most likely for the non-Outcast Faction dual Keyword models. That gets to about the same level of excess models as the current presumed mode of selling two Masters and their shared models together.

 

Of course, it was Wyrd's choice to make the new models in this wave of releases dual Keyword, but in their defence it's quite an elegant approach from a game design and business perspective. You want new releases to round out each Keyword and in some cases add to the game plan of the new Titles, and making the models dual Keyword halves the number of new models you need to design and produce. Granted, we don't know for sure if all the dual-Keyword models will be cross-faction, but even if they are it's still a relatively minimal number of useless models in each box from a mono-faction perspective. I understand that there's a difference between models you theoretically could hire choose not to and models you physically cannot use in a game, but frankly nearly every time you get three of the same Minion in a box it represents the same amount of wastage.

 

So yeah, none of this strikes me as "nasty" from Wyrd's perspective. The way they approached the design of this wave of releases makes sense, and the presumed way they're going to package them is about as customer friendly as you get once those design principles were in place.

[Peturd]

Not to be flippant, but for me, worst case, I’ll have some more unique corpse markers by chopping up extra masters

[fire5tone]

36 minutes ago, Peturd said:

Not to be flippant, but for me, worst case, I’ll have some more unique corpse markers by chopping up extra masters

It can also be a really great piece of bait to get new players interested, you get to show off how cool stuff from other factions are, without having to grab anything unnecessary.

 

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Boxing two masters of two different factions together, and adding to the box a shared miniature is a nasty play from Wyrd. 

I've done the math on different boxing methods that I can think of

And In every single one, without fail, somebody gets significantly screwed and in every instance I have found that every (known) alternative is *far* worse than 2 masters + connector(s) with the absolute worst one being one whole faction box (either 8 masters 8 connectors or 2 4 master boxes) it's price tag would be prohibitive for casuals. Collectors would be drowned in dupes, most competitive players don't always want the whole faction the only benifet it has is minimum box *count* but people won't want it so that nullifies it's bonus for shops

Edited August 2, 2021 by fire5tone
I'd be happy to go through it again if your interested or have an alternative method I may not have considered

[Da Git]

For me the best case would have been a box with for every single master with their keyword model/s. Eg. A box with Anya + Drudges and a box with Ironsides + Drudges.

However I understand that that is too many SKUs for stores and would have the same problem as the old Avatars did (too niche an item to be profitable) for Wyrd as a business model.

So, while not perfect, I do think this is the best method to keep down costs for us, SKUs for Wyrd & shops, and minimise wastage. As said above, it's really not that different from having a box with 3 minions when you're likely to only ever need 1, maybe two tops.

[fire5tone]

5 minutes ago, Da Git said:

For me the best case would have been a box with for every single master with their keyword model/s. Eg. A box with Anya + Drudges and a box with Ironsides + Drudges.

However I understand that that is too many SKUs for stores and would have the same problem as the old Avatars did (too niche an item to be profitable) for Wyrd as a business model.

So, while not perfect, I do think this is the best method to keep down costs for us, SKUs for Wyrd & shops, and minimise wastage. As said above, it's really not that different from having a box with 3 minions when you're likely to only ever need 1, maybe two tops.

bad for collectors, bad for stores, doubles box count and could cause other problems and probobly reduces cost by a marginal amount <10$ likely 

[Burnin4tor]

It’s not exactly like any of us doesn’t already have a fair few unpainted and possibly unbuilt models stashed away anyways. A couple more won’t hurt

[Thatguy]

On 8/1/2021 at 6:08 PM, touchdown said:

Kenshiro seems AMAZING. Holy cow I'm so excited for that model. 2 Bayou 2 cards per turn with no range or LOS? Don't mind if I do. Fleet of foot letting you do curved charges? Hell yeah.

This was my impression too, as a Somer player. Even after he dies you can use it. 

20 hours ago, malyzubor said:

surely give them a chance, but am honestly a bit dissapointed. Sure, they gain more survivability (although it might not be really that big as they the new ones has less HP, far less healing and no boosting demise), but their damage output is far lower (+they lost their guns) and I dare say, their mobility is lower too.

I am a little disappointed too. But the OG Viks have the glass Cannon killers down, they needed a new niche.

They might be fun in a tag team with Zipp. I get a lot out of his place, with the Viks you could potentially move enemy models pretty damn far. Maybe Hans or something else to stagger models you've put in bad positions.

[Zebo]

I think the nasty play is to add a shared dual miniature into the mix. 

I can't think many games out there in wich they force you to buy something that you can't actually add to your army or share properly with someone. 

 

And the fact that may be another companies worse doesn't mean that Wyrd has made a bad maneuver. I like Wyrd and is currently the only company I buy from, but I admit some tactics that has me away from acquiring miniatures that I want. 

[Adran]

45 minutes ago, Zebo said:

I think the nasty play is to add a shared dual miniature into the mix. 

I can't think many games out there in wich they force you to buy something that you can't actually add to your army or share properly with someone. 

 

And the fact that may be another companies worse doesn't mean that Wyrd has made a bad maneuver. I like Wyrd and is currently the only company I buy from, but I admit some tactics that has me away from acquiring miniatures that I want. 

We don't know what the distribution is, but you're probably right, it seems the most sensible model is the 2 masters and shared figure(s). 

So it looks like in the worse case you get 2 figures you want, and 1 you don't, and its probably that its hard for you to sell the 3rd figure because people that want the 3rd figure would also want the shared model. 

For what its worth, if you compare it to the best alternative to the customer, each model being individually boxed, then you probably find that the cost of the 2 boxes you want is almost the same as the box of 3, because the largest cost is that of the metal mold, and making 1 mold for 3 models is much cheaper than making 3 molds. As is making 1 box rather than 3 boxes. Back in the day when you could buy metal models either as a crew box or as a range of individuals, the crew box generally came with a free model in terms of cost. The manufacturing and packaging of plastic is hugely different, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that the extra model you get that you don't want is not adding very much to the overall cost of the box, making it a lot less of a worse deal that it first appears. Although we are never going to see the alternative pricing to see that, but its not the case of if the box only had 2 figures instead of 3 it would be 2/3rd of the cost you pay for 3. 

[Rufess]

It would be as nasty to players who collected both sides of keyword if Wyrd just packed a single master and the dual keyword model into a box, since players were forced to buy duplicated model.

Or if Wyrd decided to pack all models into individual boxes, then it would be nasty to the game stores who now needed triple space in warehouse to store those boxes.

It is all about the thing of less evil.

[Azahul]

Plus, as I tried to articulate previously, creating the dual Keyword models in the first place makes a lot of sense from a game design perspective. This is already a huge release wave, so it's a lot easier to justify releasing one model for every two Keywords rather than a new model for every Keyword. Much easier to design and balance if you can halve the number of models you're dealing with. And you want the new models, because a) The company needs to sell new models, and the titles can be represented with existing models (at worst using blu-tack or something to stick them to a larger base), and b) adding an additional model lets them create a design space with the new title in mind, as seen in the Anya/Toni/Drudge combo.

 

You could sacrifice that and say that the release wave would be better off if it were just the new Masters. Which is fair, this is an extremely ambitious release and I'm sure it's going to be hard to stick the landing. But new models are exciting, and non-Master models that can be taken as OOK picks create fun combos. It's really the only counter-argument I can think of to the presumed arrangement that works though.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another option would have been to do master titles + starter boxes at the same time.

Then each faction gets 8 new titles and 4 new models (instead of 8 & 8), with a huge increase in efficiency of faction collecting.

Personally I've started combining 3D printing with official Wyrd models. If something is awkward to purchase, I just 3D print a proxy. My Wyrd spending is pretty much fixed, so I tend to focus on getting the good value boxes and filling in some gaps.

[Azahul]

The issue with an eight Master box is that it's only arguably more efficient for a faction completionist, and a big expensive box filled with many models you may not have a use for implicitly encourages the exact proxying behaviour you describe. At least cheaper boxes of 3-5 minis have a lower barrier to entry.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Azahul said:

The issue with an eight Master box is that it's only arguably more efficient for a faction completionist, and a big expensive box filled with many models you may not have a use for implicitly encourages the exact proxying behaviour you describe. At least cheaper boxes of 3-5 minis have a lower barrier to entry.

Possibly, it depends on how active the second hand market is for the masters.

But yeah, there'll always be a tension between efficiency of packing lots of models together and precision of wanting particular models.

I think this one just comes with extra salt since you literally can't use the second master. I can use the belles that came with Seamus (and do in casual games), but can't use asami with dreamer.

Of course, people could make a casual format - take both masters from a box for free, and then treat both keywords as your keyword for hiring purposes.

[Zebo]

I must say I didn't expect release of new non-master models, and I'm happy for this. And as I've said, I probably would end purchasing every single box with the Outcast models, even with the extra model. 

But this doesn't mean that I like how it has been released (always in mind that the combination is 2 masters of different kw with a shared extra model). 

 

It's more hurting for me the little consideration Wyrd has show to M2E players with the boxing of new and old models together. If I have every Freikorps model from M2E, and I want the extra sculpts to fulfill the new model limit, I must pay like 140€ for 5 models that I want and 9 models that I dont want... Not very friendly. 

[Gheist]

I Hope that you can get the models as Single Versions period.

Otherwise it's just a way to sell more models or incite you to start new crews.

The latter i can work with, the former i think of as unsound. And i will find not one Player here that will only want the Master and not the additional shared model

[Morgan Vening]

I think one of the bigger reasons for complaint is that AFAICT, every dual keyword model is multifactional.

I really like the overall concept*, but I can see the resistance when the other Master might be in a faction you don't play.
* And as someone who owns every available Keyword, it doesn't bother me personally.

If it'd been Kenshiro as a Retainer/Last Blossom with alt Yan and alt Misaki, for example, then it works as a Ten Thunders purchase.

The worst part is going to be if someone wants the bridging model as OOK. Imagine wanting to put Kenshiro in your Lynch crew, but don't play Yan Lo? Some models might be heavy keyword dependent, but outside Fleet Of Foot, there's nothing that ties Kenny to either Keyword, and a lot that could be beneficial to any Ten Thunders crew.

[Gheist]

True. But i think it's hard to adapt now after the former release schedule with all themed boxes.

I mean there are some things like wanting to play Paul Crockett in a basse crew, leaving you either picking up Arcanists or Neverborn or dumping the rest of the Box on Ebay (or in the Trash tbh). Leaves me owning way more Masters than i intended to (congrats) but i think people on a budget could mind this.

Another way would be releasing the shared model in a 2 boxes, each with either master.

 

[Azahul]

Obviously the ideal way to sell every model would be as an individual, guaranteeing customers would be able to get exactly the number that they want with no excess. But the issue is that doing so is a terrible arrangement for the games stores. Wyrd is making a concerted effort to cut down on SKU bloat, making it easier for the stores to stock their product. And as mentioned above, the additional model you will never use doesn't necessarily contribute all that much to the price of the box.

[Axelst]

They could have chosen to not release a new non-master model for every keyword. Some keywords are much bigger than others, this could have been a chance to even it out. It's not like Wyrd has tradition for giving each master a new model every wave.

[Jesy Blue]

13 hours ago, Thatguy said:

They might be fun in a tag team with Zipp. I get a lot out of his place, with the Viks you could potentially move enemy models pretty damn far.

Man, Zipp & Vik just tossing bodies across the field!

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I have more thoughts on the boxing issues, but perhaps best to move to a general thread and discuss new Viks here?

One thing that new Viks seem to do really well is tarpit against melee crews, right? Hazardous and combat finesse just sounds miserable.

[Peturd]

Combat finesse can be a pain, but partly because I always think I can’t cheat df duels in melee against matures. And just take needless hits. I know it’s wrong, but it just sticks in my head for some reason.

I am excited to see them on the table though, and have some players be satisfied with them being just a somewhat survivable blender again.