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Chi timing question.


Maniacal_cackle

Question

I've always seen chi played in the following way:

  • You flip cards
  • You decide whether to use chi.
  • If you do, you add +2 to your duel total.
  • Then people may cheat cards (with the modified duel total).
  • Calculate final totals.

Someone pointed out to me that according to page 10, you don't actually add modifiers until step D of the duel (which is after cheating fate). That would make the order for chi tokens...

  • You flip cards
  • You decide whether to use chi.
  • Then people may cheat cards (with the unmodified duel total).
  • If you used chi, you add +2 to your duel total.
  • Calculate final totals.

Just curious how many people play it this way? There's a reasonable number of flip mechanics that get a bonus to flips (chi tokens, ill omens, etc), but does that not actually apply until after cheating? That'd make a tremendous difference if so, since it affects cheating orders.

I hadn't realised the rules never actually say to add the modifiers until the final step of duels, but then also you can kind of infer that 'adding +2 to a flip' means adding it directly to the flipped card...

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49 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Someone pointed out to me that according to page 10, you don't actually add modifiers until step D of the duel (which is after cheating fate). That would make the order for chi tokens...

  • You flip cards
  • You decide whether to use chi.
  • Then people may cheat cards (with the unmodified duel total).
  • If you used chi, you add +2 to your duel total.
  • Calculate final totals.

Yes this is the correct order and its amazing because you can win a duel and be the second cheating at the same time. 

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52 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I've always seen chi played in the following way:

  • You flip cards
  • You decide whether to use chi.
  • If you do, you add +2 to your duel total.
  • Then people may cheat cards (with the modified duel total).
  • Calculate final totals.

Someone pointed out to me that according to page 10, you don't actually add modifiers until step D of the duel (which is after cheating fate). That would make the order for chi tokens...

  • You flip cards
  • You decide whether to use chi.
  • Then people may cheat cards (with the unmodified duel total).
  • If you used chi, you add +2 to your duel total.
  • Calculate final totals.

Just curious how many people play it this way? There's a reasonable number of flip mechanics that get a bonus to flips (chi tokens, ill omens, etc), but does that not actually apply until after cheating? That'd make a tremendous difference if so, since it affects cheating orders.

I hadn't realised the rules never actually say to add the modifiers until the final step of duels, but then also you can kind of infer that 'adding +2 to a flip' means adding it directly to the flipped card...

Chi doesn't say +2 to a flip, it says +2 to the duel total. When you're looking at what the wording means, it can be important. (unfortunately it just makes things less clear here, but its still best to use the right wording).

A commonly missed case is that Pass tokens explicitly don't add to initiative until after cheating. I would say that Ill omens does since it modifies the flip, and initiative isn't a duel to follow page 10

The Chi question has been discussed before. 

Chi vs. Cheating - Malifaux Rules Discussion - Wyrd Forums (themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com)

Modifiers to duel totals after cheating - Malifaux Rules Discussion - Wyrd Forums (themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com)

 

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On 7/29/2021 at 6:53 AM, trikk said:

And how does this work with Pursue that add +1 to duel?

Step D is the only step which mentions adding modifiers to a duel, which points to Pursue also being calculated after Cheating. Step A does not mention "adding", so I don't think that any math is performed during that step. In addition, it seems to me most ability's effects which resolve during Step A have the "Before performing an opposed duel" clause, or a similarly worded clause. The way Pursue is worded, I do not think an effect is ever resolved.

The only time I can see a modifier being added prior to Step D would be when the language specifies adding the indicated value to the flip, like Ancient Pact.

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2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If people are saying filps = the card actually flipped in Initiative...

That's not what is being said.  And, beside the point.

For Careful Planning, "the suit of this Crew's Initiative flip" is a value that isn't determined until the end of the 'flip' process, after any cheating has taken place.

For what it's worth, the Initiative Flip isn't an opposed duel, so anyone trying to quote the opposed duel rules for it is incorrectly generalizing.  The Initiative Flip is written out as a three step process BECAUSE it is not a duel.  

Because it is not a duel, any abilities which modify the initiative flip (such as Ill Omens) apply continually.  Which means that if Mah Tucket's player has a 4 of Masks in the conflict as the result of step 1, that player's Initiative flip is 5:tome.  If that 4 of Masks is replaced by a cheated 9 of Rams, the Initiative flip will be 10:ram.

 

 

 

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