The problem that Molly's new title should solve.

[touchdown]

What about a Leader only ability for Molly that lets forgotten minions not discard a card if your hand is empty?

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, touchdown said:

What about a Leader only ability for Molly that lets forgotten minions not discard a card if your hand is empty?

That would be a good first step, but also I think having an empty hand is so bad that there'd have to be plenty of other payoffs. 

And even then, I'm not sure you wouldn't just play other models rather than say a Rabble Riser with free flurry.

[Graf]

With a master like Molly her card/concept as a whole is really important. Even more so than with many other masters, as control pieces have a habit to become frustrating to play against or either too weak or too strong. Her primary version already is very scheme focused, no need to just make a better version of that.

Without having played her, in my mind an improved Rambling Man ability could be neat. Dangerous to design, as it may limit design space, but could be fun to play around with an Aura that let's you pick any Fading ability from a model in range whenever you can trigger a Fading ability within the Aura? Her latest Broadcast story was pretty violent. Distracting one guy, then a lot of carefree murder. So I'm all for improving her face wrecking pieces, which this would definitly do, but something else most likely would be more reasonable for that. Maybe limiting her card draw, but giving out better buffs/effects the better any discarded cards are? So Fading/card draw isn't just an up-cycling process, but you actually gain something from spending high cards?

[Maniacal_cackle]

25 minutes ago, Graf said:

With a master like Molly her card/concept as a whole is really important. Even more so than with many other masters, as control pieces have a habit to become frustrating to play against or either too weak or too strong. Her primary version already is very scheme focused, no need to just make a better version of that.

Without having played her, in my mind an improved Rambling Man ability could be neat. Dangerous to design, as it may limit design space, but could be fun to play around with an Aura that let's you pick any Fading ability from a model in range whenever you can trigger a Fading ability within the Aura? Her latest Broadcast story was pretty violent. Distracting one guy, then a lot of carefree murder. So I'm all for improving her face wrecking pieces, which this would definitly do, but something else most likely would be more reasonable for that. Maybe limiting her card draw, but giving out better buffs/effects the better any discarded cards are? So Fading/card draw isn't just an up-cycling process, but you actually gain something from spending high cards?

This is a neat idea, but one of the base issues is that the fading of the crew are (mostly) pretty bad.

• Rogue necromancy - gets poison... That's okay, but not necessarily worth a card after turn 1.
• Archie - heals. Solid, worth it throughout the game.
• Rabble Riser - gets a focus. Pretty trivial with the focus changes (and wasn't that great before).
• Crooligan - eats a scheme marker (not too big a deal - they're usually in danger if they're near one, and their bonus action eats scheme markers, as does philip).
• Night terror - 5 inch push. This one is seriously good, admittedly, but Night Terrors are very niche takes.
• Marshal & Machine - ping heal, usually not worth a card.

So the problem with that design is you're jumping through a ton of hoops to unlock night terrors (and heals for Archie) when you could just hire a super mobile model like Manos, or you could hire a healer/fast-giver like Sloth.

Night terrors ARE useful (I probably use them in at least 1/10 games), but they're not so useful as it is that you want to jump through hoops to turn on their fading. That's the problem with the crew in general.

The cost of discarding is so huge, you need a game-breaking payoff (like teleporting a crooligan across the board, or Archie using Flurry - and even that I don't always do since the card cost is too high).

Maybe the answer is her crew just needs buffs instead of trying to fix them through her second title, but I also can't imagine that xD

EDIT: Although I guess if you can make any model discarding trigger any fading, then you can at least super-heal Archie and that's kind of useful? I could see trying that out at least, as long as new Molly was good at brawling as well.

[Burnin4tor]

13 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This is a neat idea, but one of the base issues is that the fading of the crew are (mostly) pretty bad.

• Rogue necromancy - gets poison... That's okay, but not necessarily worth a card after turn 1.
• Archie - heals. Solid, worth it throughout the game.
• Rabble Riser - gets a focus. Pretty trivial with the focus changes (and wasn't that great before).
• Crooligan - eats a scheme marker (not too big a deal - they're usually in danger if they're near one, and their bonus action eats scheme markers, as does philip).
• Night terror - 5 inch push. This one is seriously good, admittedly, but Night Terrors are very niche takes.
• Marshal & Machine - ping heal, usually not worth a card.

So the problem with that design is you're jumping through a ton of hoops to unlock night terrors (and heals for Archie) when you could just hire a super mobile model like Manos, or you could hire a healer/fast-giver like Sloth.

Night terrors ARE useful (I probably use them in at least 1/10 games), but they're not so useful as it is that you want to jump through hoops to turn on their fading. That's the problem with the crew in general.

The cost of discarding is so huge, you need a game-breaking payoff (like teleporting a crooligan across the board, or Archie using Flurry - and even that I don't always do since the card cost is too high).

Maybe the answer is her crew just needs buffs instead of trying to fix them through her second title, but I also can't imagine that xD

EDIT: Although I guess if you can make any model discarding trigger any fading, then you can at least super-heal Archie and that's kind of useful? I could see trying that out at least, as long as new Molly was good at brawling as well.

I feel like the titles won’t simply be a way to fix issues that masters currently have, perceived or real. If necessary, master cards and keywords should just be fixed with errata. The titles should be a way to open up an existing crew to a new play style, eg a mobile schemey Jack Daw crew for instance. Otherwise, why would anyone choose Option A title over the new and improved Option B title?

[Adran]

57 minutes ago, Burnin4tor said:

I feel like the titles won’t simply be a way to fix issues that masters currently have, perceived or real. If necessary, master cards and keywords should just be fixed with errata. The titles should be a way to open up an existing crew to a new play style, eg a mobile schemey Jack Daw crew for instance. Otherwise, why would anyone choose Option A title over the new and improved Option B title?

I agree that Titles should not be considered "Errata" for issues, for exactly the reasons you state. 

That said, The Forgotten keyword is built around discard effects. Any Molly title created is going to have to take into account the fact that the keyword want you to discard cards. I think that is the intent of this thread, not "fixing an issue" that Molly has, but discussion the design space a new titled Molly has to work in (and possible ways to work around in this space). 

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Looking at the other Master's new titles, nothing seems "fixed" for them other than they have different options for the same functions. Using Asami's new title, she kept her 3 core functions albeit with different flavor. Crew/enemy movement, Flicker removal, and an additional activation per turn (summoning). Looking at Molly, we've got card draw, an additional minion activation, and opponent control (slow, lethe's, story). So the question is: "How to make these core functions remain the same while changing the abilities to create different strengths/weaknesses and counter-play from the opponent?" I now agree with the above comments that the titles shouldn't fix how the crew plays, but how the opponent plays the crew.

One way I could see doing this would be to change Lethe's to an ability with a Strange Behavior like bubble. Something like: "Once per Activation. After an enemy model within 10" declares an Action that is has already declared during this Activation, a friendly Forgotten minion within LoS may discard a card to move up to 3" and take an Action".

We keep some opponent Action control, while gaining actions. Forgotton Minions gain a little more power, and opponent doesn't have as easy of a choice as plain 2 dmg since declaring 2x action could result in a Crooligan ripping a vital scheme marker and/or stealing a soulstone, a Night Terror gaining additional movement, or having to eat a focused attack from a Rabble Riser. How does this change the opponent? Amor and shield no longer blunt Molly as well, and incorporeal gains some effectiveness since the damage of 2x declaration will come from attacks. The opponent now also needs to play around Molly's physical location instead of pure LoS.

I think adding a friendly Forgotten-only Obey in place of Con Crit would even out losing the extra activation. Losing activation control may hurt, but this would grant a higher ceiling for actions per turn when including the above ability. I would probably place a Surge or Deja Vu trigger here.

Card draw similarity could be accomplished by giving Molly Arcane Reservoir and an Equality of Fate-like Bonus action. Action could be draw one card, draw two cards if less cards in hand than opponent's hand". Could throw two triggers on there, "perform action again" (with this suit built-in) and "if hand size equal to opponent, opponent discards a card at random". Molly retains a 2-4 cards per turn capability, while still encouraging the opponent to manage their hand in comparison to Molly's. This pairs well with the 2x action declaration ability above as well, since performing an action a second time could result in more cards drawn by Molly or a randomly discarded card. I like how this offers very different options for Molly and the opponent.

Molly's hand in relation to opponents

Even or Greater: Molly draws 2, -1: Molly draws 3, -2: Molly draws 3 or draws 2 w/ random opponent discard, -3+: Molly draws 4.

That's all I have for now.

 

EDIT: I actually think tying irreducible damage to the Obey could work well. Make the Obey Friendly Forgotten (possibly just Minion) or Enemy only, and have it be "the target may suffer irreducible damage equal to the number of cards this model has drawn this turn. If it doesn't, non-bonus action controlled by Molly". Gives the opponent less control over the amount of damage suffered, but more control on if they suffer damage or the action Molly's controller decides on. Rabble Risers could get an indirect buff here with the Obey causing the model to treat abilities like it was the model's activation, and would certainly keep the opponent from bringing models w/ Flurry.

[Paddywhack]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

I think that is the intent of this thread, not "fixing an issue" that Molly has

I agree that is the intent now, but the title of the thread is literally "the problem that molly's new title should solve".  

I don't want to 'fix' anything with her or any of the other masters. I'm hoping it opens up a new way to play the master and new ways to interact with the keyword models. Maybe make some of the less well thought of keyword models more useful somehow. I've never had much luck with current Molly, so I'm hoping I'm able to wrap my head around new Molly better. 

Now I'm just waiting every Wednesday to see if they preview any Resurr stuff.... 

[Korrok]

I wouldent mind a leader ability that's like "if your hand is smaller than your opponants hand, if an enemy model is within 6 of a friendly forgotten model when they discard, your opponent discards instead"

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah, I wasn't meaning it as a forced fix. Adran pretty much captures it above.

I think the second titles appear to be hugely different, while maintaining the core themes of the crew.

Dreamer and Asami largely lost the ability to summon. But they retain mechanics for cards removed from the game and flicker respectively. EDIT: And all four designs we've seen so far go really heavy on keyword play. Sonnia gives them extra attacks I think, Kirai swarms the small ones, Dreamer relies on them lucid dreaming, and Asami can reactivate her models and remove flicker from them.

For Molly, I assume this looks like dealing with the fading mechanic (it is literally the main thing of her keyword). It'd be frankly bizarre if new Molly DIDN'T account for her crew discarding cards. I don't think constructive criticism will make the cut, because it isn't really core to the crew itself (just core to how her current title works).

The issue is that most of the models aren't producing sufficient value from discarding a card (particularly in multiples). A discard's payoff can range from 5 inches, to an extra archie attack and a heal, to an extra focused Rabble Riser attack. But after a point, the diminishing returns of that discard starts to hurt.

And after 150+ games with Molly, I think that diminishing returns for discard is after ~2 models (although sometimes I'll force a 3rd). And on very rare occasion I'll go so far as to go archie, crooligan, philip, night terror is the most extreme I ever go now.

But even the Philip + Night Terror combo turns out to be weaker than hiring a student of viscera for less stones most of the time (unless I'm against Tara or something and I specifically need the slow tech from Philip). And ironically the Student of Viscera has a discard cost with no payoff, but it offers a mechanism to avoid that cost so often ends up superior.

So I think there just needs to be some way to generate additional value off the discarding.

I like the direction people are going that under some conditions, you can manipulate the opponent's hand size when you discard. That seems neat! Adran's Yannic comparison also makes sense. I could see a world where you could discard corpses instead of cards, and that could make for some great resource conversion (and open up corpse-themed builds with Molly).

But I think the new title needs to address the value issue of the discard mechanic for the crew, or we may continue to see a lot of pools with 2-3 forgotten models and the rest OOK & versatile is the way to go.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But I think the new title needs to address the value issue of the discard mechanic for the crew, or we may continue to see a lot of pools with 2-3 forgotten models and the rest OOK & versatile is the way to go.

Unfortunately I don't see this happening without the new title causing Molly to perform completely differently, which I don't think will happen based on how the new titles alter HOW a master accomplishes their niche instead of WHAT their niche is. I don't really consider summoning a entire niche, just a tool for the summoner to accomplish their niche. For example, either Asami gets an additional activation per turn which will start with 3 flicker tokens (barring other factors), and either Dreamer can still unbury minions into enemies. How opponents deal with the Masters accomplishing that is different.

A discard focused mechanic will always favor large payoff or large card draw, neither of which forgotten models do well (as you pointed out). Either you have the current situation, where strong OOK/Versatile models are fueled by card advantage, or you have OOK/Versatile card draw powering the discard because the effect is so strong, which Forgotten lack. The entire Forgotten keyword would need a re-work, with the card draw spread out amongst Forgotten models instead of singularly focused on the master, to enable mostly in-Keyword crews. 

I just hope they can change her up enough that the new title is able to utilize Rabble Risers/Night Terrors a little better as offensive/defensive options for kill-oriented scheme pools. If the new title can cause consistently wanting to take a Rabbles & Terrors as one of the 2-3 Forgotten models, then at least all of the Keyword is playable and the problem has a "good enough" solution.

[HowNot2Wargame]

"Whenever a friendly model discards, and enemy model within 8" aura gains adversary (forgotten)".

Or

"If Molly if the leader of the crew, when a friendly model discards a card, an enemy model within 8" gains distract +1"

So we are helping weak models survive more in combat, but still tying it into a discard mechanic.  If the above is not right, then the suggestion that when you discard, your opponent discards for me has some real potential, but may be too negative emptying hands and then top decking for the rest of the game. 

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think the adversary (forgotten) option makes a lot of sense, and is very 'clean'.

The distract one is way too powerful. That is already Molly 1s discard payoff and it is the best payoff in the crew. Giving it to every model could be disastrous.

[bakaryu135]

So yeah Molly2 is definitely a card draw monster

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

She didn’t fix much for forgotten models though. I feel that you hire her instead of base molly if you were going to take philip & night terror, but she doesn’t change the status quo for the 2-3 forgotten models + OOK/Versatile standard. I think which OOK models accompay Molly has changed more than anything in-keyword, with Redchapel and Urami looking to be top contenders.