Half Health calculation

[Vessien]

Hi, quick rules question about "halves":

 

If I understood it correctly, following the "Math" rules, except for movement, everything is rounded up.

 

Then, in schemes such as "Let Them Bleed" and "Assasinate", which is the "half" Health for a model with 7 Health, 3 or 4? Would Assasinate be scored if the "old" Dreamer has 4 Health left?

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, Vessien said:

Hi, quick rules question about "halves":

 

If I understood it correctly, following the "Math" rules, except for movement, everything is rounded up.

 

Then, in schemes such as "Let Them Bleed" and "Assasinate", which is the "half" Health for a model with 7 Health, 3 or 4? Would Assasinate be scored if the "old" Dreamer has 4 Health left?

If you start with 7 wounds, and have 4 left you are not at half health or less. 

I don't think the game is asking me to perform a mathematical operation, so the Math rule on page 31 doesn't apply.

 So for a 7 wound model

3 health is half health or less, 4 health is half health or more. 

For an 8 wound model 4 health is half health or less and half health or more. 

 

[Vessien]

Thank you for answering so quickly!

However, I disagree, since when "half" is written anywere, you have to perform a mathematical operation. Even if it is a trivial one, such as "halving".

Thus, when dividing 7 by 2 (integer division), it could be 3 or 4, depending on how you round it. And since the Math rule says "always round the sum up", it must be 4.

Anyway, is there any FAQ for it?

 

[Adran]

Its not covered in the FAQ. 

I think they made all models with Grit have even health to try and avoid this issue. 

So half of 7 is 4 according to the Math operations rule. 

Am I at half health if I have lost half my health or if I still have half my health? 

 

[Vessien]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Am I at half health if I have lost half my health or if I still have half my health? 

If we take the wording of the scheme, they refer to the current health of the model.

So I would say when you have half your health it already counts for the schemes.

[Adran]

On 7/9/2021 at 5:52 PM, Vessien said:

If we take the wording of the scheme, they refer to the current health of the model.

So I would say when you have half your health it already counts for the schemes.

 

Sorry I was trying to show you that you could follow the mathematical process and still end up using 3 or 4 health as the answer. Which is why I don't think it applies. And barring a good rules based argument, I'm sticking with the common sense answer I gave earlier. 

 

[Vessien]

I'd agree on the reasoning if it would say "below half health", and that way is how these schemes are explained usually, thus the confusion imo.

Actually, I used to think it was as you say, until in a podcast they stated otherwise.

But once I carefully read the rules wording, I chnaged my opinion . So I guess we will have to agree to disagree here, and (at least me), ask my opponents or TOs how is it going to work.

Thank you for a good discussion ^^

[belorey]

I think maybe this need a FAQ because looks that exist a RAI and RAW.

I'm agree that if you "halved" and round Up as the rules said, a model with 7 wounds has "half its máximun health" when he has 4 wounds. But for me the VP shouldn't get scored untill you get 3 remaining.

[solkan]

For the historic record, Wyrd has in the past demonstrated this usage (in 2nd edition, quoting from the M2E FAQ):

Quote

Q:  The Incorporeal Ability allows a model to reduce all damage it suffers from Sh and Ml Actions by half. Is the damage rounded up or down? For example, if an Incorporeal model suffers 3 damage from an Ml Action, is the damage reduced to 2 or 1?

A:  The damage is rounded up. So, an Incorporeal model suffering 3 damage from an Ml Action would reduce that damage to 2.

In other words, in M2E the Incorporeal ability said "reduce the damage by half" (which sounds like you would take the damage X, subtract X/2 (rounding this number up?)) but what was intended was "halve the damage" (straight out divide the damage by two, rounding the result up).

But, Vendatta's current wording of

Quote

Reveal: At the end of the chosen friendly model’s Acti- vation, if it hasn’t been Replaced, it damaged the cho- sen enemy model, and that enemy model has half its maximum Health or less (but is still in play), you may reveal this Scheme to gain 1 VP.

or Assinate's

Quote

Reveal: At the end of the Turn, if the enemy Leader is in play and has half its maximum Health or less, you may reveal this Scheme to gain 1 VP.

The rules say that you do this, because it's not a distance:

Quote

In all cases where you are dividing any number but a movement distance, you will need to round any fractions. In these cases, always round the sum up to the nearest whole number.

So if you need the number for "half of its Maximum Health" and the Maximum Health is 7, the number is 4.

Note that neither of those say "below half" or to have lost half of its health, they say that the model has to have half of its maximum health or less.  Trust me, it's a minor point that got plenty of arguing over, and the outcome was the plain one:  What matters is how much you have left, not how much you lost (or how you got to half).

 

[belorey]

13 hours ago, solkan said:

For the historic record, Wyrd has in the past demonstrated this usage (in 2nd edition, quoting from the M2E FAQ):

In other words, in M2E the Incorporeal ability said "reduce the damage by half" (which sounds like you would take the damage X, subtract X/2 (rounding this number up?)) but what was intended was "halve the damage" (straight out divide the damage by two, rounding the result up).

But, Vendatta's current wording of

or Assinate's

The rules say that you do this, because it's not a distance:

So if you need the number for "half of its Maximum Health" and the Maximum Health is 7, the number is 4.

Note that neither of those say "below half" or to have lost half of its health, they say that the model has to have half of its maximum health or less.  Trust me, it's a minor point that got plenty of arguing over, and the outcome was the plain one:  What matters is how much you have left, not how much you lost (or how you got to half).

 

M2E rules have no relevance in this edition. But, as i said earlier, this is an important point that should be FAQ because i think there is a RAI to round down and a RAW to round up. Anyway i could be wrong.

[trikk]

Assassinate or Vendetta don't make you make math operations.

[Morgan Vening]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Assassinate or Vendetta don't make you make math operations.

That's my feeling too.

You don't need to round up or round down to get an answer (for 7 health, 4 is above half, 3 is below), so you don't need to round off.

[belorey]

7 hours ago, trikk said:

Assassinate or Vendetta don't make you make math operations.

Yes you do, or how do you know the "half health or less"? because if you don't need to make the subtraction It should be the same number everytime.

I can understand both arguments even if i think it should be less than a half.

[Adran]

On 7/10/2021 at 8:54 PM, belorey said:

Yes you do, or how do you know the "half health or less"? because if you don't need to make the subtraction It should be the same number everytime.

I can understand both arguments even if i think it should be less than a half.

If you choose the mathematical option of being Double your current health and compare that to your starting health, then it works perfectly fine with no need to do any rounding. Its as simple (if not simpler) in mathematical terms to perform as divide a number and compare that, and doesn't have any argument. 

 

The game has "half health or less" and "half health or more", so regardless of how you chose to do the dividing to a whole number, it gets you something that looks wrong sometimes. (assuming you do the same calculation each time, which you should)

I'm not against things looking wrong, but being the written way. I do expect them to tell me that I need to do something "wrong"  (such as treat 4 as less than or equal half of 7, or treat 3 as more than or equal half of 7 depending on what you do)

Here it isn't written how to check if something is at half health, so I don't like "wrong" things being assumed the way 

[belorey]

16 minutes ago, Adran said:

Here it isn't written how to check if something is at half health, so I don't like "wrong" things being assumed the way 

Well in the pág. 31 say: any number but movement distance.

We agee that Half Health need a subtraction, so is a math, so you follow the rule of Divide and you round up. Thats why i think RAI ≠ RAW

[Adran]

1 minute ago, belorey said:

Well in the pág. 31 say: any number but movement distance.

We agee that Half Health need a subtraction, so is a math, so you follow the rule of Divide and you round up. Thats why i think RAI ≠ RAW

Half health doesn't need a subtraction. I assume this is a lingusitic mistake, presumable for calculation. 

I don't think the game is asking for you to perform a mathematical operation on a game number, but even if you view that it does, it isn't explicitly asking us to divide at this point. I can determine if I am at Half health by multiplying my health by 2 and comparing that to the starting health.

And Multiplication is before Division...

[belorey]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Half health doesn't need a subtraction. I assume this is a lingusitic mistake, presumable for calculation. 

I don't think the game is asking for you to perform a mathematical operation on a game number, but even if you view that it does, it isn't explicitly asking us to divide at this point. I can determine if I am at Half health by multiplying my health by 2 and comparing that to the starting health.

And Multiplication is before Division...

Agree that desagree. (I think you say like that). 😁

Half is a division, for sure u can get the number multiplying, adding or subtracting. Because we are talking about small numbers and is easy. But when someone ask you for a half of a number, you make a division, no a multiply.

So you round Up. Thats way this need a FAQ. And even if i'm wrong, too many players would argue the same so that should be enought to clarify.

[Vessien]

Thank you guys for the responses, specially for those well argued.

Let's hope this gets a FAQ, but for the meantime, it shouldn't be difficult to agree to one of both methods with each playgroup or in each tournament.

[belorey]

I would say that should be half or less (round down). Even if i think RAW we should round up.

[Vessien]

I understand your point, but I disagree. I find it to be a design decission too big to have being misswritten or overlooked. Because it affects several schemes and rules, such as grit.

And it even has its own point in the rules, where the exception of movement is the only one mentioned. So it is something they took into account when designing the whole game.

Thus, I do think the intend of the rule is as written, and not the opposite. 4 is as good as a half of 7 as 3, and adding exceptions to the math rule would go against the streamlining intend of m3e.

[Vessien]

As a reference supporting 4 is already half of 7 and enough to score:

Go to minute 20:35

 

[Adran]

For what it's worth I believe that the maths call out box is identical to the last 2 rule editions, so I'm not100% sure you can use them to argue intent. Likewise I'm not sure it would have occurred to many people to apply the rounding rules to comparing something to half something ( I don't think I've thought to do it in the past 10 years of malifaux playing) because I'm not performing an in game requested division. 

 

[belorey]

21 hours ago, Vessien said:

As a reference supporting 4 is already half of 7 and enough to score:

Go to minute 20:35

 

I think they say the opposite. The are talking about healing to 4 to deny assassinate. Or i understood wrong?

[Vessien]

2 hours ago, belorey said:

I think they say the opposite. The are talking about healing to 4 to deny assassinate. Or i understood wrong?

I understand:

B: ...with assassinate, on an odd health master, is it rounded up or down?...

K: 4 is half 

B: 4 is half? Ok, so you round up... So it's only 3 wounds, I mean, he is incorporeal and (you have) stones and...

K: Sure, and he can heal, and, just getting to him....

 

 

 

[santaclaws01]

On 7/12/2021 at 5:49 PM, Vessien said:

As a reference supporting 4 is already half of 7 and enough to score:

Go to minute 20:35

 

Not really a reference supporting anything. Just the opinion of some other players.

[belorey]

19 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Not really a reference supporting anything. Just the opinion of some other players.

Thats why i said this need a FAQ, because there is nothing sure.