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Don't let lovers fall - A Tormented guide


Graf

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I know I don't want to spend Daw's bonus action for it. But I sometimes give my Hanged GST (instead of him), there I can easily afford to spend that action for a focus pulse turn#1.

Being close to each other luckily isn't uncommon for Tormented anyway. ^^

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think the Nurse could use a little more love than “only heal-bot”. She has good synergy with hanged and Montressor specifically. Using tools to pick up a black joker is nice when you have an unactivated Hanged. Bedside is also good since it keeps a Noose teleport, or Montressor pull, from dealing with friendly-fire on a committed enemy model. Montressor can also hand out fast to them when the Nurse is cursed. Probably a niche play, but still impactful if ripping focus or extra movement is needed. Nurse also has fairly easy access to Stagger and Push on triggers, both of which Tormented love. 

How is Carrion Emissary into pools with research mission? Is the +1 Mv while activating for the crew and the ability to bluff, or pick, research mission worth the 10ss?

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First: Yes, there is a lot to love about the Nurse.

Likely not due to the combination of Tormented + Nurse though (assuming you ignore Painkillers) though, in my opinion. In my model list I include models which work well with the crew specifically. Sure, being able to recycle a Black Joker is neat, but 1 more card out of 54 is not much difference when compared to any other crew, in my opinion. At that point the discussion is more about: "What are the strongest models indepedent from crew choice?" This is an absolutly legit question to ask! Just not one I aimed to answer here.

I cannot remember ever needing Bedside Manner to pull a model out of friendly fire range. Hanged also have a non-:ranged ranged attack and Montresor... if the opponent is so close to you, you are able to apply Bedside Manner, you have so many options to deal with it, you do not need to include a model for that. The strongest aspect of Bedside, in my opinion, is to deny attacks. Tormented is very resilient and your toughest models should cover the few squishy ones anyway. Therefore, you can simply tank attacks.

Her triggers fit in with Tormented well, that's true. It's not like Tormented needs her for that, you have plenty of other choices, but it might be worth noting it in her description.

In short: Yes, she has a strong abilities. No, I don't think Tormented benefits as much from her as other crews, apart from her heal action (which is a BIG reason for Tormented).

 

On 7/26/2021 at 6:58 PM, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

How is Carrion Emissary into pools with research mission? Is the +1 Mv while activating for the crew and the ability to bluff, or pick, research mission worth the 10ss?

My biggest gripe with the Emissary is its price tag. The worth of +1Mv depends a lot on your crew composition imho. Some really like it (Daw, Montresor, Outlaws), but many models do not benefit from it at all (Jakuuna, Drowned, Ligeia, Hanged). The value of bluffing Research Mission cannot be answered with theoryfaux, it is based on how you assess your opponent's reaction. Personally, I don't think it is worth spending 10SS most of the time, if you do not have other, solid reasons to take the monster bird. In regards to actually picking Research Mission... Yes, the Emisarry helps a lot with that, that much is obvious. Unless your opponent can shoot the Emissary off the board easily, it is a solid scheme since you want to be on the board where you can score Research anyway. The reveal VP is basically guaranteed and the end VP can be reasonably scored.

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I was strictly speaking in a Nurse + Tormented capacity. I'm not sure there is much merit to discussing the strength of a support piece in a vacuum, of which I agree is a waste of time in a guide dedicated to a specific crew.

1 hour ago, Graf said:

Sure, being able to recycle a Black Joker is neat, but 1 more card out of 54 is not much difference when compared to any other crew, in my opinion. 

I'll have to agree to disagree with the recycling a Black Joker (as a Red Joker for the Hanged), not being much different as other crews. Just one guaranteed attack action with any trigger attached to it can be enough to swing the game, especially if assassinate/vendetta are on in the pool. In addition, you can use the Black Joker as a type of activation control if you suspect the opponent's next activation will be free of opposing duels, for when the pool is favoring interacting. Some opponents will certainly bite to prevent you from holding a "Red Joker", which is a unique interaction for Nurse + Tormented. I'm not saying it needs to be much in depth, but at least raising the flag that the Nurse brings more synergy beyond "heal-bot" when taken with Tormented would be helpful for beginners to the crew.

I'll certainly admit to a different stance on Bone Piles vs Nurse though. I haven't been wowed by them in a crew that doesn't have any corpse marker generation outside of kills/deaths. Maybe it's just having played with them w/ Revenant and them just not being the same league when w/ Tormented. Nurse's many tiny synergies cause me to look to them first and then ask if a Bone Pile would be better, though I now really only consider them w/ Tormented if I'm also taking the Emissary (which as you have said is not an easy decision in itself).

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Reading your post, I think we don't disagree on the value of recycling a black joker. The ability is designed to give you back a high card and Tormented has one more than other crews. My point is more like "Yeah, that's self explainatory." In that case, the disagreement seems more about "Is that worthy of note in a guide?" and I think it's perfectly fine to have different point of views on that. If the question is: "Is it worth including a Nurse for a chance to recycle up to a black joker?" My answer is: propably not. Would it be a bad model choice overall? My answer: No, it wouldn't.

A different stance on Bone Piles vs Nurses could explain a different approach to the later though, good observation. For me, Piles don't consume many corpses. One well placed corpse for their bury shenanigans and any additional ones are bonus, so they don't kill themselves. This means, markers from kills usually are enough. I don't expect them to perform the same way as with a crew like Revenant, all I need is one good teleport, condition removal/heal and a gun for whenever they have nothing better to do. Oh, I also like Numbskull, so my condition hate doesn't get disrupted by whatever condition I tech pick them against in the first place.

But... If you prefer Nurses, go for it and hire her! Arguments like this one here is why I choose this format: To foster discussion and bring in different opinions. I also might edit in a disclaimer section, to give context to how/why I pick certain models to include in the guide and others not. Yeah, improvement! Even if we two don't change our stance on the topic, any other can look at our arguments and decide for themselves.

 

Edit: Regarding the next guice section (strats and schemes), I know it has been some time since the last post. Time sadly has been in short supply lately. It will come, just a little bit late, like a Mv4 model without any teleport actions. 😉

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  • 1 month later...
4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Perhaps I missed it, but could you run through a turn 1 unpack?

Ideally you want Dead Outlaw to activate first so it can put up its aura, but you need guilty to move up first..? So if the Guilty interacts, the scheme marker doesn't push anyone?

With the newer toward rules, you can activate the Dead Outlaw to put up the aura, charge, shoot the guilty and drop an enemy scheme marker, push the guilty 2.5" to the opposite side of the marker, and still have 1AP left to grant Fast to a model. I've never really done it any other way since toward became bringing two points on edge of base closer instead of center to center.

Though maybe this move is illegal, since the Dead Outlaw Push is '3" toward' and not 'up to 3" toward' (had not noticed that until now, brain must've filled the gap).

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7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Perhaps I missed it, but could you run through a turn 1 unpack?

Ideally you want Dead Outlaw to activate first so it can put up its aura, but you need guilty to move up first..? So if the Guilty interacts, the scheme marker doesn't push anyone?

Tbh, other than "move Guilty before Hanged, etc." and "move Daw late" there isn't much of a fixed t1 activation order for me. It depends a lot on how my opponents act and how aggressive they are. For example, if they move up a lot, they will catch Curses early. If they don't, my turn looks different.

In terms of Dead Outlaws, I rarely run into this situation, since they move out of the bubble most of the time in the early game, so Too Greedy to Die won't matter anyway. In case they stay with the group you can do what PiersonsMuppeter said and force Guilty to drop a marker, assuming you have a low tomes. If not, I prefer to hand out Fast late during t1 anyway, to carry it over to t2.

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4 hours ago, Graf said:

Tbh, other than "move Guilty before Hanged, etc." and "move Daw late" there isn't much of a fixed t1 activation order for me. It depends a lot on how my opponents act and how aggressive they are. For example, if they move up a lot, they will catch Curses early. If they don't, my turn looks different.

In terms of Dead Outlaws, I rarely run into this situation, since they move out of the bubble most of the time in the early game, so Too Greedy to Die won't matter anyway. In case they stay with the group you can do what PiersonsMuppeter said and force Guilty to drop a marker, assuming you have a low tomes. If not, I prefer to hand out Fast late during t1 anyway, to carry it over to t2.

Oh right, do you typically on your heels the guilty (with the gun I assume?) Jacks upgrade must be annoying though to put on a guilty?

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2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh right, do you typically on your heels the guilty (with the gun I assume?) Jacks upgrade must be annoying though to put on a guilty?

Yeah, On your Heels is Hanged main mode of movement. Compared to other models of my own crew, Guilty get the Horrifying Whispers treatment more often. But if you want to triple jump (e.g. Guilty, enemy 1, enemy 2), you need to safe the bonus action for jumping out of enemy engagement range. So, both option are valid, depending on the gamestate.

Curses on my own models aren't a big issue. First, you sometimes actually want them turn 1 to kick of your carddraw from Jack asap. Second, Jack's upgrade is the easiest to handle once your Guilties already moved in position. Third, if I want to get rid of it, Ligeia pokes them to remove it.

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8 minutes ago, Graf said:

Yeah, On your Heels is Hanged main mode of movement. Compared to other models of my own crew, Guilty get the Horrifying Whispers treatment more often. But if you want to triple jump (e.g. Guilty, enemy 1, enemy 2), you need to safe the bonus action for jumping out of enemy engagement range. So, both option are valid, depending on the gamestate.

Curses on my own models aren't a big issue. First, you sometimes actually want them turn 1 to kick of your carddraw from Jack asap. Second, Jack's upgrade is the easiest to handle once your Guilties already moved in position. Third, if I want to get rid of it, Ligeia pokes them to remove it.

What a quirky crew! Might do this for my next tournament...

If doing fixed list, is 2 hanged with gst, 2 guilty, 2 dead outlaws a reasonable list?

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Fixed list can be tricky with Tormented,but if you want to start learning the crew with that, 2 Hanged, 1-2 Guilty and 1-2 Outlaws aren't a bad basis. What you absolutly need for this is versatile/ook healing and condition removal, so either Bone Piles or Nurse. So you probably will need to skip one Guilty/Outlaw and shift Upgrades (those are quite up to personal style). 

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