Graf Posted July 3, 2021 Report Share Posted July 3, 2021 Guide for a guide This time, I’ll handle guide writing a bit differently than my previous one. Instead of dumping all at once, I’ll add to it step-by-step, allowing for discussion in between. Since the crew has quite a few synergy effects, some themes will span multiple posts and aren’t immediately fully understandable when I first mention them. If you’re interested in playing Tormented (or have to play against him), I recommend coming back here from time to time and read future posts as well. I expect readers to have studied and understood the cards. I will cover the basics, but only go into stats and available actions when necessary. There are other guides on this forum for such. I’ll focus more on what isn't necessarily immediatly obvious and what you actually do with your models on the board. General Playstile Tormented is Ressurectionists’ premier bubble crew and has three legs to stand on: killing power, debuffs and card manipulation. While Tormented always includes all three aspects to a degree, trying to maximize each isn’t very viable. Both your stones and the AP are limited resources, which put a cap on that. Instead, look what works best for the scheme pool and opponent in question, focus on two aspects and do those well. While Tormented certainly is a bubble crew and gobbles up anything that’s getting to close to their circle of death, if you picked the right models, the crew can be surprisingly mobile. Schemes requiring a lot of movement are much more achievable than it is often claimed imho. This is my preferred playstyle, so you can expect the most information on that here. But they can only use common Interact to get markers down, so schemes which require a lot of those are better avoided with this crew. Aspect #1 - Curses Models: Jack Daw, Hanged, Guilty Curses are a huge part of Tormented’s toolkit, always part of their game plan and play into the two other aspects. The different curses are not created equal though. Let us take a look at them first. Curse of Injustice (Jack Daw): This is a solid curse. While Staggered debuff on positioning comes to shine in a melee crew only when combined with other deterrents (e.g. terrain), it unlocks multiple triggers for the crew and makes attacks against Mv easier. This is very nice, but imho what really makes this curse shine is “plentiful (5)” and the fact it is applied by a 3AP model that can survive being 8” close to multiple enemy models. Quantity can be quality. Punish the Wicked (Guilty): In my opinion, the strongest curse Tormented has. A bigger hand size and therefore card draw is good for anybody. Tormented is very card hungry. But, early in a turn, they often run in the situation to draw more cards than they have room for, though this might be a luxury problem. Sadly, it also has its downsides. First, it is the hardest to apply, because you need your opponent to play along and kill your Guilty. Second, the more card advantage you want, the longer you play down 5pts and one activation per upgrade in play. Forbidden Knowledge (Hanged): It is a great curse against models who need to be positioned correctly end of turn to score. Otherwise, it most often allows Hanged to cause more damage and usually does not stick around for long, because it's the only curse your opponent can get rid off without dying. Card manipulation Tormented always utilize is card draw and it is based upon curses. First, there is the crew’s signature ability, which lets you draw a card whenever one of your models damages an enemy with a curse upgrade. Second is Daw’s bonus ability to draw a card for every cursed enemy within range. This is hugely important for the crew. Tormented is uniquely able to use any card you draw, be it moderates/severes to win duels/inflict damage (like anyone else), weak cards are also handy to have for your own discard effect and even black jokers become great if you play Hanged. But though your card efficiency is great, you need a lot of them! Quantity means quality for Tormented. The question resulting from this is: How much is enough? In my personal experience, drawing at least a 2nd full hand is what you should get out of these abilities most turns. If plans go well, it will usually exceed this, but below that you will run into problems operating at max. capacity. One issue you will run into, especially in turn #2, is order of activation. Commonly, you want to active Jack Daw asap to hand out as many curses as you can, but then you won’t have room in your hand. Most crews do not care much about that since they can afford to just throw away their low cards. Tormented does not like that – quantity is key for them. Try to activate a model with (high) TN or a necessary duel first, so you make room for at least some new cards. After that initial push, you can space out your card usage as usual. Once you have enough curses out, you can activate Daw later in a turn. Aspect #2 - Discard/Execute Execute models: Jack Daw, Montresor Discard models: Guilty, Dead Outlaw, Hanged In my opinion, to go execute as a main mechanic, is a high risk/high reward approach. For obvious reasons it is great to just delete models from the board. But you must chew through resources, before you even get to do that. Assuming an average hand for your opponent, your first two discards won’t even matter much, as weak cards will be dropped first, only after that you start to apply hand pressure, and you start from scratch each turn. Soulstones at least do not come back once spend (unless, you know, Arcanists…), but the amount your opponent starts the game with is relevant here. If they have only 2 or 3 available, that is great for you! But I rarely encounter that and even less so once opponents know they will face Daw. It will take some turns to chew through 7 to 9 stones. The last drawback: It enforces an obvious activation order. You want Daw and Montresor to go late and your opponent will know it. With Daw, that is usually okay, but often enough the game state requires to go against that. With Montresor I struggle to save him that long most of the time anyway. This sounds pretty negative and to a certain degree it is, but the point I want to drive home: Do not expect execute to go off, unless the game is in your favour anyway. You might ask now: “But discarding and spending SS is already beneficial, right?” Yes and no. As already mentioned, the first few discard effects will not hinder your opponent much. To stay within the Ressers perspective: Reva, with high card usage and hardly any card draw, suffers quickly from discards. Against her, discard is a serious consideration. But Molly will laugh at you, for her it is more a nuisance instead of a hindrance, thanks to her strong draw abilities. Therefore, you must take your opponent’s capabilities into consideration if you decide to make strong use of Tormented’s discard abilities or not. It is not a decision you can make in a vacuum, only at the table. Lucky for me, I like the models with discard abilities anyway and often take them for other reasons. This give me the potential to use them, even if I plan something completely different. This is a good situation for nasty mind games: “You really want to stone for an extra card? Neat.” “How big is your stone pool? This low already? Good to know.” “How many hand cards do you have left? Why do I ask? Because I want to know how soon I can execute your models.” I try not to be a butthead about it, but bluffing is part of Malifaux for me. The more experienced your opponent is, the less impact it will have of course. But most of the time I get at least some reaction out of them. Even if it is just them getting nervous or staying relaxed when being forced to consider hand destruction. With my favourite model picks it also is no lie, I could go this route if I wanted to. But I try to motivate my opponent to hold back and play it safe and instead plan to use different triggers/abilities, that benefit from my opponents being careful with their resources. I call that benefit without resource investment. tldr: Use discard is a threat, even if you never do it. Aspect #3 - Debuffs Models: Lady Ligeia, Drowned, Guilty Staggered is the most important debuff for Tormented. It is the most common one and, similar to curses, the crew can use many triggers, if the enemy suffers from it. In addition, slow is sprinkled in as another condition. Your range to apply Staggered is rather limited. This means, your opponent will be quite close to you when you can put it on. This puts limits on how much you can slow them down during early game, but at least it means they won’t get away easily. This is also why I noted only three models above, even though more models apply the condition regularly. Those can do it at range and therefore are the most attractive choices. Other than during list building, this aspect is simple but effective, so there is not much to say about it. Just keep in mind, which models need Staggered on enemy models to use triggers/bonus effects and which attacks are resisted by movement. Quick Notes “Torment” Crew Ability One of two main reasons, why curses are so important to Tormented: They generate a huge portion of your card advantage with this ability. It also often dictates your order of activation, so sometimes you must decide to skip the card draw to get rid of a model asap. But do not blindly rush to attack, instead always consider how to get more out of it. This is a general truth, but especially true here. For example, since Tormented tends to stick close to each other, you likely will have the option to attack with another model instead of pushing a kill with cheating a damage flip. Terrifying Models: Jack Daw, Hanged, Montresor Only a few models have this rule natively, but they are crew favourites. Check your opponent’s capabilities to pick models and upgrades with Ruthless. It is very likely they will use it to tech against Daw and there is not much you can do about that, except killing them before they can kill you. If you are confident, they cannot take many, consider running a terrifying list with investing into Grave Spirit’s Touch for your minions without terryfing. Conditions & Healing This is the most pronounced weakness of Tormented imho. Jack Daw can heal life on himself, but otherwise the crew does not have any heals. Same goes for conditions, which can make you struggle a lot against some crews. This can be solved by taking versatile/OOK options. In-keyword models Jack Daw Role: killer, curses, card draw His first card is pretty straight forward. It may be just me, but I often forget Disturbing Whispers, be better than that! Also remember: Due to Ghost of Malifaux, Jack Daw cannot body block, but if they move through him normally, they still need to disengage. A question you will encounter with him is: Do I use my Slow AOE or do I just kill one model? There is no easy answer, both can be a strong play. My general guideline is: killing a model takes at least 2 actions (per turn) away from your opponent and might give you last activation. But Slow can take away 1 action per model in range. TN13 is good, but will not go through with every model, therefore I take extra time to consider Whispered Truth once he catches at least 4 models and/or needs to slow down multiple models. Daw’s first turn usually consist of rushing forward and dragging something along with Drawn to Betrayal, to establish dominance over the middle of the board as soon as possible. Turn #1 (if possible) and turn #2 is used to apply as many curses as possible. Do not hold back and spend all his actions, if you have targets, you will need those curses going forward. If your opponent was nice enough to give you enough (now cursed) models close-by, you can start drawing cards. Luckily, Suppressed Memories both applies a curse and lets you teleport to your enemy – do not hesitate to spend stones! You better start drawing a considerable amount now, if you start turn #3 it might be still okay, but you will feel the difference. Upgrades Grave Spirit’s Touch: After getting a few games in, I was under the impression that you need this upgrade less, the more experienced you are with Daw. Blasphemous Ritual is wasted on Daw and after turn #1 he has other things to do with his bonus action. I returned more and more to GST though, the longer I played Tormented. The thought is true regarding his survivability, but if you can gauge his toughness better, it also means you can afford to be more aggressive with him, if necessary. Regen +2 also means you save up to two hand cards you could use well somewhere else. In short: While it is not mandatory, if you can take GST, do it! Killer Instinct: A worthy upgrade for Daw’s offensive, but I take it only if I require Ruthless, but then I do it gladly. Wasting a master’s action or cards for a failed terrifying check is rather bothersome. Loot their corpses is solid, if you do not need these markers for something else. Daw is deadly and can collect a few stones over the course of a game. The Whisper: It is well known how good Intuition is on a master and being the killer he is, Daw can even draw you a few additional cards. Despite this, Whisper is the upgrade I take the least. All three are good options, but I have found that GST ito be the better pick and Killer Instinct is mandatory against certain crews. If I take Whisper, it is usually because I do not need KI and both Hanged already get GST. Lady Ligeia Role: aura and debuff support Ligeia’s debuff aura is the strongest reason, why it is dangerous to go into the Tormented bubble. Even when it combines with only occasional discard, it gets expensive for your opponent very fast. A single, strong model can get some cheats through, but if you have to deal with only one model, it generally is to your benefit as long as they cannot teleport out. Sadly, she also is not very survivable. Measure well how far she needs to be to cover your models and keep an eye out for models with longer (melee) ranges. Her Projected Voice attack is what she usually spends her action for other than moving. The damage is surprisingly solid for a Totem, but the important part is guaranteed Stagger trigger on blast. Her stat is rather low though, if you really need to debuff something with her, better plan to cheat for the attack. Since she prefers not to be in direct contact with the enemy, Talons is largely irrelevant – except when used on your own Guiltys. Montressor Role: utility, tank Montressor will always have things to do, since he can obey any non-master Tormented model. There is not much finesse to him, just look which models need an extra action. His attacks are solid and their triggers fit well to Tormented with the possibility for min. 3 and Execute. Noteworthy, he is a great roadblock with Terrifying, HtW, 10 Health and his Demise ability. I have found Suffocation and Hanging Ropes are nice to have, but usually not worth playing into them. My biggest “problem” with Montressor is keeping up with the rest of the crew. He has no native mobility option and therefore requires being pulled by other models, if he wants to make use of Cured To Watch until you established a good position for your bubble. Guilty Role: utility support Guilty decouple many of Tormented’s janky movement abilities from enemy models and their positioning because you may count them as enemy models. With this, they are an absolute cornerstone for the crew’s mobility and counteract the crew’s common Mv4. You will find examples of such plays with Daw or Hanged later in this guide. Whenever your opponent does not give you enough good target to curse and draw cards from with Daw, you can employ Guilty instead. As long as they keep 1 life, it does not have any drawback. What do you do with Guilty other than taking hits? They are usually the first models I activate during early game. They are one of the few who do not ignore terrain, so they need a good position to go straight forward during deployment. A perfect position for them is within 8-10” to the enemy’s line, so they can serve as jumping off points or retrieval targets, while they themselves are in range to apply Staggered themselves and/or can drop scheme markers. After you are done with your Hanged and Daw, Ligeia comes in and removes the curse from them with her Take It All trigger. Likely you will have to cheat a ram in, so you will not have more cards, but it can help with cycling through your deck. How many Guilty do you need? Sadly, I cannot answer that clearly. One is absolutely mandatory and you should not let it die quickly without being very sure you get one back asap with their demise/curse. If you play 2 Hanged, it is sensible to go up to two Guilty if you can afford it. It massively increases your ability to jump from one flank to another within a single turn and gives you the option to leave one of their curses on your opponent without suffering unnecessary control loss over your teleport capabilities. Hanged Role: mobile beater, occasional schemer I lovingly call my Hanged 10SS Henchman, as they operate similarly once you give them an upgrade. For me, they are the most important pick for Tormented, even though they are quite an investment. They give Tormented much needed mobility and I rarely leave without 2 of them. With them and Daw you can make use of every card in your hand, even the Black Joker. With a bonus action attack, they are a pseudo-3AP model and their usual attack pattern look as following: Safe approach: Toss the Noose + On your heel trigger on enemy, 1-2x Dead Man's Collar on enemy, Horrifying Whisper on Guilty (tactical retreat) Aggressive approach: Toss the Noose on enemy, Horrifying Whipser + On your heel trigger on enemy, 1-2x Dead Man's Collar The combination of Hanged, Guilty and Dead Outlaws is potent. Guilty provide a scheme marker, Outlaws hand out Fast and Hanged therefore become AP4 models with a huge threat range (up to >20” with 3 attacks). It is one thing to read about it and another to see how much ground they can cover. I will cover their movement shenanigans more in a later post. It is of note, that Hanged require either Guilty and/or enemies for their mobility. This means, the more models you kill, the less teleport options you will have. This means success in your killing game can lead to trouble with scoring during late game. Be aware of this and try not to avoid scheming until then. Upgrades While Hanged are good models without any upgrades, they turn them up to 11. Definitely take them, all of them are legit choices. GST: Hanged have solid defensive capabilities, but their Df4 will be felt sooner or later. GST helps you twice: Increased Terrifying means your opponent will have to dedicate a serious amount of resources to get rid of them within a single turn, as long as you do not run in front of a ruthless beatstick. If they do not, they will start to heal back up with Regen. My biggest reason not to always give both of my Hanged GST, is that they compete with Daw over it and I like to play my Hanged redundant with the same upgrade. Same as with Daw, Ritual is largely wasted on them, but the other two abilities are worth it already. KI: Prime models to give Ruthless if necessary, since Hanged can pick their target more freely than most Tormented models. Due to Plentiful 2, I prefer KI on Hanged and something else on Daw. Other than Daw they also benefit from the minion-only ability, which eases the necessity to stone for their teleports and often makes them double up as a schemer. TW: Similar to Daw, the other upgrades usually have a higher priority. But occasionally I take Whisper on them, if my opponent forces many Wp duels. Dead Outlaw Role: (anti) schemer, support It honestly baffles me, why Outlaws are rarely recommended. I guess a circular logic lies at the bottom. People assume Tormented is a pure killer and bubble crew, without any scheming potential and therefore do not take Daw when the pool involves anything other than murdering – which is not when Outlaws reach their full potential and therefore get branded as underperforming models and are not testes in more scheme heavy pools, strengthening the first assumption. Outlaws are what I consider the crew’s scheme runners. They are not great when compared to dedicated runners, but Run & Gun at least gives them the ability to move while they use their attacks at the same time. Their abilities also make them very flexible, and I usually try to squeeze at least one into my list and often take two, if the pool demands it. While Hanged can also drop schemes with their attacks, catching an enemy model at a suitable location is much more likely, when it comes on a 12” gun. Staggered and Slow also are much more useful at that range. Outlaws are the only in-crew source for Fast. They are the reason, why Guilty will always have productive activations, they can drop a marker to provide the cost. Naturally, it is better to destroy an enemy marker and get Fast on top of it! Even if Outlaws move away from the bubble, they can remove one marker for free each turn, putting Fast on themselves (it is not an attack action). Crooked Man I have never seriously played them, even do not own them. That might be due to them being hard/expensive to obtain in my area, but I have not missed them much. Their min. 3 trigger and blast Staggered looks appealing, but they are a bit too expensive when I could take cheaper options for the similar capabilities. In theory they combine well with Drowned, Jakuuna and Montresor, but this pronounces their price tag even more. While Malifaux Mining Law is unique and may be helpful in certain situations, I prefer to simply not pick schemes which would require their protection. But I would be happy to hear any success stories about them and which factors lead to it! Jaakuna Ubume Role: utility She is a control piece. Lure on stat 7 is great, especially when the enemy is already close to Daw and suffers -1 Wp. It has two main functions: Scoring control and pulling enemy models into your death bubble. This is especially important for a bubble crew, because scheme runners can potentially sneak past on your flanks. With her, you do not need to run after them to hunt them down. Be aware, while she has okay defensive capabilities, she is a bit squishy for a Tormented model. Do not leave her alone, she likes to stick to your bubble. This is also where you can benefit most from her bonus action aura, stacking with the other auras from Daw/Ligeia. Drowned Role: utility While Kirai can summon them wherever they are needed, Tormented have to actually move them across the board, to make use of their min. 3 trigger attack. Since all your mobility abilities for other models are single target, there is a built-in limit, which can leave Drowned behind. On the plus side they apply Staggered with a ranged bonus action and Projectile Vomit can both Debuff beaters who are brave enough to come close to your bubble or mess with your opponent’s positioning – a footprint of 6”+50mm covers a lot of ground, though it requires a suit. All in all one could say they are more of a control model for Tormented, instead of a beater minion, which is another reason why I usually take only one, as more are not needed for this task. Versatile & OOK models I have often read that Tormented plays in-keyword only. I beg to differ. Spending 25% of your points for non-keyword models might not always be necessary but is absolutely normal for Tormented. You can go up to 50% without running into major trouble. You just need to look out to include enough curses and draw sufficient cards. Bone Pile Role: heal/condition support, teleporting schemer Who played against me more than once knows, I am a fan of Bone Piles. Personal preference aside, there are very good reason to take them with Tormented, since they cover two of their main weaknesses: lack of healing and lack of condition removal. Against condition crews (e.g. Pandora) I like to take two of them. Even if their Throw ‘Em A Bone ability is not needed in a given turn, they still can shoot stuff from the safety of your bubble. In Corrupted Ley Lines they are my turn#1 Lodestone bearer. Move to the first strategy marker turn #1/2 and bring a 2nd model into position. Turn #3 you bury and therefore throw the Lodestone any distance to the closest model – the one you positioned to be in range to go to the next marker. Turn #4 you unbury at marker 3, all you need until then is a close corpse token. Break the line might also benefit from them, though it needs a few more resources. Shoot a scheme runner shoving a strategy marker, cheat for Dismember and bury. Next turn, you pop up next to them and, if necessary, kill them with the Pick the Bones trigger. Those are a few loops to jump through, so it will not always work, but keep it in the back of your mind. Gravedigger Role: utility/support I would like to include a Gravedigger more often, especially in combination with Bone Piles. Commonly, I cannot find enough free point for them though. In my opinion they should be central to scoring at least two of your strategy/schemes (e.g. Leylines + Research Mission) to take them in your list. Dead Rider Role: beater, utility I still have to find a crew, which does not benefit from including the rider. Its damage potential is not as needed as in other crews, but a mobile beatstick like him will nearly always find usage. Tormented specifically like to have another taxi and love to get enemy models pushed into their bubble. This combines very well with Jaakuna’s lure. Divide both on your flanks and your opponent will think twice to try to sneak around your bubble. Manos Role: utility, debuff As usual, Manos is a mobile schemer with Demise hate, who can also hurt stuff if necessary. But with Tormented, his Spirit Barrage is especially noteworthy. An 12” AOE Staggered trigger without TN once you have hit your original target is easily worth stoning and cheating for in this crew. The whole package he brings makes him a serious consideration, even when you do not need his Demise hate. Nurse Role: heal/condition support Usually, I prefer Bone Piles for healing/condition hate due to their offensive and scoring capabilities. Bedside manner is not as needed as with other crews, your models are quite tough on their own or your opponent is hesitant to get close to your bubble anyway. But it would be foolish to ignore their capabilities completely. Upcycling cards is never bad, multiple of her triggers work well with Tormented and if your primary need is condition removal and healing, they are your go-to model. Mourner Role: utility They are the only model to counter ruthless. Sadly, this great rule sticks to a bad model and only helps against melee based ruthless. The corpse can assist with an early-game corpse, e.g. for a Bone Pile teleport or focus pulse, but overall I cannot give them a recommendation. Usually, it would be better to simply safe SS for stoning to avoid damage. There might be niche cases though, so I regard them as a rare option. Necropunk Role: schemer As scheme runner, they were so good, they could be taken in any crew. This changed with GG2 and their new requirement for masks on their leap. But Tormented is one of the crews with enough card draw to still include them. While you want to avoid duels, their crews ability can draw you cards, in contrast to most other OOK options. Sloth Role: heal/buff support Sloth will always be a solid in an (mostly) undead crew! He might not be a priority pick for Tormented. Handing out fast is always great and might be worth the stones already, but it does not work on a few models (Jakuuna, Hanged, Drowned, Ligeia) and his heal drawback requires you to take another model to get rid of slow or limit it to tarpit models like Jakuuna (which you might be fine with). He can be a niche tech pick if you have trouble against strong healing. Together with Hanged, it becomes quite unappealing with a big footprint, but I have never run in such a situation. Student of Steel Role: offensive support Armour hate on a stick. Not a high priority pick, even against high armour lists, but it might make dealing with them easier. You can run into trouble getting the student into position, most your mobility abilities do not work on non-Tormented friendly models, unless you curse the Student. Jakuuna is the exception here, she can lure him along. Anna Lovelave Role: utility She is solid without any support and gets taken as a tech piece against summoners and flyers for her Gravity Well ability alone. She fits quite well into Daw's playstile, with two (!) debuffs auras, the chance to draw cards, reasonable toughness and offensive. Personally, I am a big fan of her Glimpse trigger, as it can send anything, that even Tormented might have trouble getting rid of, back to wherever your opponent has to spend actions to return them into a proper position. 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted July 3, 2021 Report Share Posted July 3, 2021 Yessss, we needed a Jack Daw guide for sure! Looking forward to readin git. I'm really curious about Jack Daw's playstyle and doing more of an emphasis on ranged combat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 Card manipulation Tormented always utilize is card draw and it is based upon curses. First, there is the crew’s signature ability, which lets you draw a card whenever one of your models damages an enemy with a curse upgrade. Second is Daw’s bonus ability to draw a card for every cursed enemy within range. This is hugely important for the crew. Tormented is uniquely able to use any card you draw, be it moderates/severes to win duels/inflict damage (like anyone else), weak cards are also handy to have for your own discard effect and even black jokers become great if you play Hanged. But though your card efficiency is great, you need a lot of them! Quantity means quality for Tormented. The question resulting from this is: How much is enough? In my personal experience, drawing at least a 2nd full hand is what you should get out of these abilities most turns. If plans go well, it will usually exceed this, but below that you will run into problems operating at max. capacity. One issue you will run into, especially in turn #2, is order of activation. Commonly, you want to active Jack Daw asap to hand out as many curses as you can, but then you won’t have room in your hand. Most crews do not care much about that since they can afford to just throw away their low cards. Tormented does not like that – quantity is key for them. Try to active a model with (high) TN or a necessary duel first, so you make room for at least some new cards. After that initial push, you can space out your card usage as usual. Once you have enough curses out, you can activate Daw later in a turn. Aspect #2 - Discard/Execute Execute models: Jack Daw, Montresor Discard models: Guilty, Dead Outlaw, Hanged In my opinion, to go execute as a main mechanic, is a high risk/high reward approach. For obvious reasons it is great to just delete models from the board. But you must chew through resources, before you even get to do that. Assuming an average hand for your opponent, your first two discards won’t even matter much, as weak cards will be dropped first, only after that you start to apply hand pressure, and you start from scratch each turn. Soulstones at least do not come back once spend (unless, you know, Arcanists…), but the amount your opponent starts the game with is relevant here. If they have only 2 or 3 available, that is great for you! But I rarely encounter that and even less so once opponents know they will face Daw. It will take some turns to chew through 7 to 9 stones. The last drawback: It enforces an obvious activation order. You want Daw and Montresor to go late and your opponent will know it. With Daw, that is usually okay, but often enough the game state requires to go against that. With Montresor I struggle to save him that long most of the time anyway. This sounds pretty negative and to a certain degree it is, but the point I want to drive home: Do not expect execute to go off, unless the game is in your favour anyway. You might ask now: “But discarding and spending SS is already beneficial, right?” Yes and no. As already mentioned, the first few discard effects will not hinder your opponent much. To stay within the Ressers perspective: Reva, with high card usage and hardly any card draw, suffers quickly from discards. Against her, discard is a serious consideration. But Molly will laugh at you, for her it is more a nuisance instead of a hindrance, thanks to her strong draw abilities. Therefore, you must take your opponent’s capabilities into consideration if you decide to make strong use of Tormented’s discard abilities or not. It is not a decision you can make in a vacuum, only at the table. Lucky for me, I like the models with discard abilities anyway and often take them for other reasons. This give me the potential to use them, even if I plan something completely different. This is a good situation for nasty mind games: “You really want to stone for an extra card? Neat.” “How big is your stone pool? This low already? Good to know.” “How many hand cards do you have left? Why do I ask? Because I want to know how soon I can execute your models.” I try not to be a butthead about it, but bluffing is part of Malifaux for me. The more experienced your opponent is, the less impact it will have of course. But most of the time I get at least some reaction out of them. Even if it is just them getting nervous or staying relaxed when being forced to consider hand destruction. With my favourite model picks it also is no lie, I could go this route if I wanted to. But I try to motivate my opponent to hold back and play it safe and instead plan to use different triggers/abilities, that benefit from my opponents being careful with their resources. I call that benefit without resource investment. tldr: Use discard is a threat, even if you never do it. [NEXT] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted July 4, 2021 Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 Glad to be following this write-up. Mobile, skirmishing Daw is the approach I prefer so I'm looking forward to your take. I'd play him more but my two regular opponents play Ten Thunders and Euripides respectively and I don't know that Daw has game into those matchups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaag Posted July 4, 2021 Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 guide says obvious things now it is not useful try to add some interesting combos, battle situations and add crews on each strat 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted July 4, 2021 Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Plaag said: guide says obvious things now it is not useful try to add some interesting combos, battle situations and add crews on each strat Guides are aimed at new players, the point is to say obvious things. Plus it isn't finished yet, so worth waiting to see what cool tricks he gets to when it is more developed I agree specific examples of battle situations or crews would be great once Graf finishes the basics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 5 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said: I'd play him more but my two regular opponents play Ten Thunders and Euripides respectively and I don't know that Daw has game into those matchups. You're welcome to pitch in and share your experiences! Especially TT would be interesting, because nobody in my meta plays them regularly. Therefore I don't feel qualified to give tipps against them. My approach against NB is: Do they have Dreamer? No? Good, then it's at least playable. Most of them aren't much better at scheming than you, which is a plus. Keep an eye out on their anti-schemers, they might disrupt you too much (assuming you picked marker schemes). Euripides is a low model count crew, without stellar defense, Ice Pillars which do not stop your Incorpreal models, just don't forget the Totem can let one model per round ignore Hazardous terrain. I think you will be fine against him, at least I had no issue. 1 hour ago, Plaag said: now it is not useful try to add some interesting combos, battle situations and add crews on each strat I do agree. At the moment I'm still deep in the "general overview" section. As I mentioned, more specific stuff will come later. The plan is to go: general overview -> models -> game plays and scheme/listbuilding. An experienced player like you can be a tough customer, so you'll have to wait. 😉 Do you have any specific wishes? I will cover them, if I can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted July 5, 2021 Report Share Posted July 5, 2021 "Euripides is a low model count crew, without stellar defense, Ice Pillars which do not stop your Incorpreal models, just don't forget the Totem can let one model per round ignore Hazardous terrain. I think you will be fine against him, at least I had no issue." I tend to get tabled via simple duels on tactical actions. The indirect damage can be...a lot. I think the right play is to be more aggressive and just kill him first. I'm bad at those plays though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azahul Posted July 5, 2021 Report Share Posted July 5, 2021 Yeah, Tormented doesn't love shockwaves either. I played against a Ten Thunders player once who hadn't seen Daw before and brought almost no Ruthless. I killed Misaki early, and ultimately stomped the table, but we noted Shang as MVP for the game because his Shockwaves did more work than the rest of the Misaki crew combined. The next game we played my opponent brought a crew comprised 100% of models with shockwaves or Ruthless. Ten Thunders specifically has a lot of tools for Daw. Euripides's Shockwaves are Tactical Actions too so they bypass Incorporeal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2021 1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said: I tend to get tabled via simple duels on tactical actions. The indirect damage can be...a lot. I think the right play is to be more aggressive and just kill him first. I'm bad at those plays though. Yeah, Euripides himself can be a pain. Two instead of one damage on a 3AP model (instead of Cyclops 1dmg/2AP) can hurt. Positioning is key when you rush him and I spread out as much as possible, extra healing softens the blows you catch coming in. Those are topics I definitly will touch. LOS blocking terrain can be helpful as well. Though the board needs to be friendly to you, shockwaves tend to play around that quite well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaag Posted July 5, 2021 Report Share Posted July 5, 2021 11 hours ago, Graf said: You're welcome to pitch in and share your experiences! Especially TT would be interesting, because nobody in my meta plays them regularly. Therefore I don't feel qualified to give tipps against them. My approach against NB is: Do they have Dreamer? No? Good, then it's at least playable. Most of them aren't much better at scheming than you, which is a plus. Keep an eye out on their anti-schemers, they might disrupt you too much (assuming you picked marker schemes). Euripides is a low model count crew, without stellar defense, Ice Pillars which do not stop your Incorpreal models, just don't forget the Totem can let one model per round ignore Hazardous terrain. I think you will be fine against him, at least I had no issue. I do agree. At the moment I'm still deep in the "general overview" section. As I mentioned, more specific stuff will come later. The plan is to go: general overview -> models -> game plays and scheme/listbuilding. An experienced player like you can be a tough customer, so you'll have to wait. 😉 Do you have any specific wishes? I will cover them, if I can. i think it will be useful to make guide for jack in both ressers/outcasts, so add crews for strats in both factions make some core for crews and some concept of a crew, main idea and main ook/versatile models 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted July 5, 2021 Report Share Posted July 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Plaag said: i think it will be useful to make guide for jack in both ressers/outcasts, so add crews for strats in both factions make some core for crews and some concept of a crew, main idea and main ook/versatile models Personally, I am more interested in reading why a player creates the lists, than seeing the lists they create. Just writing a list down for a game doesn't really help people learn why they should use certain things, and what they ought to be doing. My own crews change so much based on deployment/Strategy/Scheme pool/Opponent/table layout that I find it much better to have the theory as to why you select certain models and generally view Crew lists as "Obvious things to most players, and not very useful". I don't know if Graf is planning on doing an outcast one later. There is certainly the possibility that there would be a big difference in the way to use Tormented across the different factions (even if you stuck to pure keyword, I can see the upgrades making a fairly different play style) so I can see why a creator might make them 2 separate guides. I've enjoyed what's there so far (I've always been a fan of the hidden power of execute style effects which have their most effect by being a threat, rather than you actually using them). Looking forward to the rest of the guide 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Plaag said: i think it will be useful to make guide for jack in both ressers/outcasts, so add crews for strats in both factions make some core for crews and some concept of a crew, main idea and main ook/versatile models #1: Sorry, not happening. When I started Malifaux I've decided for 1 faction and to stay there and I want to be confident enough about what I include in a guide. The occasional faction swap or borrowed list isn't enough for that in my mind. #2: Yes, imho that's the usual part, will do that. #3: Yes, I often read how Tormented needs to be played in-keyword and I have a more... nuanced opinion on that, so I already planned to write a bit about this. 13 minutes ago, Adran said: Just writing a list down for a game doesn't really help people learn why they should use certain things, and what they ought to be doing. I've enjoyed what's there so far (I've always been a fan of the hidden power of execute style effects which have their most effect by being a threat, rather than you actually using them). Looking forward to the rest of the guide I do agree and that's my main focus. Propably the main reason why my guides always end up being very wordy. xD And thank you, I hope it will stay this way! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2021 Aspect #3 - Debuffs Models: Lady Ligeia, Drowned, Guilty Staggered is the most important debuff for Tormented. It is the most common one and, similar to curses, the crew can use many triggers, if the enemy suffers from it. In addition, slow is sprinkled in as another condition. Your range to apply Staggered is rather limited. This means, your opponent will be quite close to you when you can put it on. This puts limits on how much you can slow them down during early game, but at least it means they won’t get away easily. This is also why I noted only three models above, even though more models apply the condition regularly. Those can do it at range and therefore are the most attractive choices. Other than during list building, this aspect is simple but effective, so there is not much to say about it. Just keep in mind, which models need Staggered on enemy models to use triggers/bonus effects and which attacks are resisted by movement. “Torment” Crew Ability One of two main reasons, why curses are so important to Tormented: They generate a huge portion of your card advantage with this ability. It also often dictates your order of activation, so sometimes you must decide to skip the card draw to get rid of a model asap. But do not blindly rush to attack, instead always consider how to get more out of it. This is a general truth, but especially true here. For example, since Tormented tends to stick close to each other, you likely will have the option to attack with another model instead of pushing a kill with cheating a damage flip. Terrifying Models: Jack Daw, Hanged, Montresor Only a few models have this rule natively, but they are crew favourites. Check your opponent’s capabilities to pick models and upgrades with Ruthless. If you are confident, they cannot take many, consider running a terrifying list with investing into Grave Spirit’s Touch for your minions without terryfing. Conditions & Healing This is the most pronounced weakness of Tormented. Jack Daw can heal life on himself, but otherwise the crew does not have any heals. Same goes for conditions, which can make you struggle a lot against some crews. This can be solved by taking versatile/OOK options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 In-keyword models Jack Daw Role: killer, curses, card draw His first card is pretty straight forward. It may be just me, but I often forget Disturbing Whispers, be better than that! Also remember: Due to Ghost of Malifaux, Jack Daw cannot body block, but if they move through him normally, they still need to disengage. A question you will encounter with him is: Do I use my Slow AOE or do I just kill one model? There is no easy answer, both can be a strong play. My general guideline is: killing a model takes at least 2 actions (per turn) away from your opponent and might give you last activation. But Slow can take away 1 action per model in range. TN13 is good, but will not go through with every model, therefore I take extra time to consider Whispered Truth once he catches at least 4 models and/or needs to slow down multiple models. Daw’s first turn usually consist of rushing forward and dragging something along with Drawn to Betrayal, to establish dominance over the middle of the board as soon as possible. Turn #1 (if possible) and turn #2 is used to apply as many curses as possible. Do not hold back and spend all his actions, if you have targets, you will need those curses going forward. If your opponent was nice enough to give you enough (now cursed) models close-by, you can start drawing cards. Luckily, Suppressed Memories both applies a curse and lets you teleport to your enemy – do not hesitate to spend stones! You better start drawing a considerable amount now, if you start turn #3 it might be still okay, but you will feel the difference. Upgrades Grave Spirit’s Touch: After getting a few games in, I was under the impression that you need this upgrade less, the more experienced you are with Daw. Blasphemous Ritual is wasted on Daw and after turn #1 he has other things to do with his bonus action. I returned more and more to GST though, the longer I played Tormented. The thought is true regarding his survivability, but if you can gauge his toughness better, it also means you can afford to be more aggressive with him, if necessary. Regen +2 also means you save up to two hand cards you could use well somewhere else. In short: While it is not mandatory, if you can take GST, do it! Killer Instinct: A worthy upgrade for Daw’s offensive, but I take it only if I require Ruthless, but then I do it gladly. Wasting a master’s action or cards for a failed terrifying check is rather bothersome. Loot their corpses is solid, if you do not need these markers for something else. Daw is deadly and can collect a few stones over the course of a game. The Whisper: It is well known how good Intuition is on a master and being the killer he is, Daw can even draw you a few additional cards. Despite this, Whisper is the upgrade I take the least. All three are good options, but I have found that GST ito be the better pick and Killer Instinct is mandatory against certain crews. If I take Whisper, it is usually because I do not need KI and both Hanged already get GST. Lady Ligeia Role: aura and debuff support Ligeia’s debuff aura is the strongest reason, why it is dangerous to go into the Tormented bubble. Even when it combines with only occasional discard, it gets expensive for your opponent very fast. A single, strong model can get some cheats through, but if you have to deal with only one model, it generally is to your benefit as long as they cannot teleport out. Sadly, she also is not very survivable. Measure well how far she needs to be to cover your models and keep an eye out for models with longer (melee) ranges. Her Projected Voice attack is what she usually spends her action for other than moving. The damage is surprisingly solid for a Totem, but the important part is guaranteed Stagger trigger on blast. Her stat is rather low though, if you really need to debuff something with her, better plan to cheat for the attack. Since she prefers not to be in direct contact with the enemy, Talons is largely irrelevant – except when used on your own Guiltys. Montressor Role: utility, tank Montressor will always have things to do, since he can obey any non-master Tormented model. There is not much finesse to him, just look which models need an extra action. His attacks are solid and their triggers fit well to Tormented with the possibility for min. 3 and Execute. Noteworthy, he is a great roadblock with Terrifying, HtW, 10 Health and his Demise ability. I have found Suffocation and Hanging Ropes are nice to have, but usually not worth playing into them. My biggest “problem” with Montressor is keeping up with the rest of the crew. He has no native mobility option and therefore requires being pulled by other models, if he wants to make use of Cured To Watch until you established a good position for your bubble. Guilty Role: utility support Guilty decouple many of Tormented’s janky movement abilities from enemy models and their positioning because you may count them as enemy models. With this, they are an absolute cornerstone for the crew’s mobility and counteract the crew’s common Mv4. You will find examples of such plays with Daw or Hanged later in this guide. Whenever your opponent does not give you enough good target to curse and draw cards from with Daw, you can employ Guilty instead. As long as they keep 1 life, it does not have any drawback. What do you do with Guilty other than taking hits? They are usually the first models I activate during early game. They are one of the few who do not ignore terrain, so they need a good position to go straight forward during deployment. A perfect position for them is within 8-10” to the enemy’s line, so they can serve as jumping off points or retrieval targets, while they themselves are in range to apply Staggered themselves and/or can drop scheme markers. After you are done with your Hanged and Daw, Ligeia comes in and removes the curse from them with her Take It All trigger. Likely you will have to cheat a ram in, so you will not have more cards, but it can help with cycling through your deck. How many Guilty do you need? Sadly, I cannot answer that clearly. One is absolutely mandatory and you should not let it die quickly without being very sure you get one back asap with their demise/curse. If you play 2 Hanged, it is sensible to go up to two Guilty if you can afford it. It massively increases your ability to jump from one flank to another within a single turn and gives you the option to leave one of their curses on your opponent without suffering unnecessary control loss over your teleport capabilities. Hanged Role: mobile beater, occasional schemer I lovingly call my Hanged 10SS Henchman, as they operate similarly once you give them an upgrade. For me, they are the most important pick for Tormented, even though they are quite an investment. They give Tormented much needed mobility and I rarely leave without 2 of them. With them and Daw you can make use of every card in your hand, even the Black Joker. With a bonus action attack, they are a pseudo-3AP model and their usual attack pattern look as following: Safe approach: Toss the Noose + On your heel trigger on enemy, 1-2x Dead Man's Collar on enemy, Horrifying Whisper on Guilty (tactical retreat) Aggressive approach: Toss the Noose on enemy, Horrifying Whipser + On your heel trigger on enemy, 1-2x Dead Man's Collar The combination of Hanged, Guilty and Dead Outlaws is potent. Guilty provide a scheme marker, Outlaws hand out Fast and Hanged therefore become AP4 models with a huge threat range (up to >20” with 3 attacks). It is one thing to read about it and another to see how much ground they can cover. I will cover their movement shenanigans more in a later post. It is of note, that Hanged require either Guilty and/or enemies for their mobility. This means, the more models you kill, the less teleport options you will have. This means success in your killing game can lead to trouble with scoring during late game. Be aware of this and try not to avoid scheming until then. Upgrades While Hanged are good models without any upgrades, they turn them up to 11. Definitely take them, all of them are legit choices. GST: Hanged have solid defensive capabilities, but their Df4 will be felt sooner or later. GST helps you twice: Increased Terrifying means your opponent will have to dedicate a serious amount of resources to get rid of them within a single turn, as long as you do not run in front of a ruthless beatstick. If they do not, they will start to heal back up with Regen. My biggest reason not to always give both of my Hanged GST, is that they compete with Daw over it and I like to play my Hanged redundant with the same upgrade. Same as with Daw, Ritual is largely wasted on them, but the other two abilities are worth it already. KI: Prime models to give Ruthless if necessary, since Hanged can pick their target more freely than most Tormented models. Due to Plentiful 2, I prefer KI on Hanged and something else on Daw. Other than Daw they also benefit from the minion-only ability, which eases the necessity to stone for their teleports and often makes them double up as a schemer. TW: Similar to Daw, the other upgrades usually have a higher priority. But occasionally I take Whisper on them, if my opponent forces many Wp duels. Dead Outlaw Role: (anti) schemer, support It honestly baffles me, why Outlaws are rarely recommended. I guess a circular logic lies at the bottom. People assume Tormented is a pure killer and bubble crew, without any scheming potential and therefore do not take Daw when the pool involves anything other than murdering – which is not when Outlaws reach their full potential and therefore get branded as underperforming models and are not testes in more scheme heavy pools, strengthening the first assumption. Outlaws are what I consider the crew’s scheme runners. They are not great when compared to dedicated runners, but Run & Gun at least gives them the ability to move while they use their attacks at the same time. Their abilities also make them very flexible, and I usually try to squeeze at least one into my list and often take two, if the pool demands it. While Hanged can also drop schemes with their attacks, catching an enemy model at a suitable location is much more likely, when it comes on a 12” gun. Staggered and Slow also are much more useful at that range. Outlaws are the only in-crew source for Fast. They are the reason, why Guilty will always have productive activations, they can drop a marker to provide the cost. Naturally, it is better to destroy an enemy marker and get Fast on top of it! Even if Outlaws move away from the bubble, they can remove one marker for free each turn, putting Fast on themselves (it is not an attack action). Crooked Man I have never seriously played them, even do not own them. That might be due to them being hard/expensive to obtain in my area, but I have not missed them much. Their min. 3 trigger and blast Staggered looks appealing, but they are a bit too expensive when I could take cheaper options for the similar capabilities. In theory they combine well with Drowned, Jakuuna and Montresor, but this pronounces their price tag even more. While Malifaux Mining Law is unique and may be helpful in certain situations, I prefer to simply not pick schemes which would require their protection. But I would be happy to hear any success stories about them and which factors lead to it! Jaakuna Ubume Role: utility She is a control piece. Lure on stat 7 is great, especially when the enemy is already close to Daw and suffers -1 Wp. It has two main functions: Scoring control and pulling enemy models into your death bubble. This is especially important for a bubble crew, because scheme runners can potentially sneak past on your flanks. With her, you do not need to run after them to hunt them down. Be aware, while she has okay defensive capabilities, she is a bit squishy for a Tormented model. Do not leave her alone, she likes to stick to your bubble. This is also where you can benefit most from her bonus action aura, stacking with the other auras from Daw/Ligeia. Drowned Role: utility While Kirai can summon them wherever they are needed, Tormented have to actually move them across the board, to make use of their min. 3 trigger attack. Since all your mobility abilities for other models are single target, there is a built-in limit, which can leave Drowned behind. On the plus side they apply Staggered with a ranged bonus action and Projectile Vomit can both Debuff beaters who are brave enough to come close to your bubble or mess with your opponent’s positioning – a footprint of 6”+50mm covers a lot of ground, though it requires a suit. All in all one could say they are more of a control model for Tormented, instead of a beater minion, which is another reason why I usually take only one, as more are not needed for this task. Versatile & OOK models I have often read that Tormented plays in-keyword only. I beg to differ. Spending 25% of your points for non-keyword models might not always be necessary but is absolutely normal for Tormented. You can go up to 50% without running into major trouble. You just need to look out to include enough curses and draw sufficient cards. Bone Pile Role: heal/condition support, teleporting schemer Who played against me more than once knows, I am a fan of Bone Piles. Personal preference aside, there are very good reason to take them with Tormented, since they cover two of their main weaknesses: lack of healing and lack of condition removal. Against condition crews (e.g. Pandora) I like to take two of them. Even if their Throw ‘Em A Bone ability is not needed in a given turn, they still can shoot stuff from the safety of your bubble. In Corrupted Ley Lines they are my turn#1 Lodestone bearer. Move to the first strategy marker turn #1/2 and bring a 2nd model into position. Turn #3 you bury and therefore throw the Lodestone any distance to the closest model – the one you positioned to be in range to go to the next marker. Turn #4 you unbury at marker 3, all you need until then is a close corpse token. Break the line might also benefit from them, though it needs a few more resources. Shoot a scheme runner shoving a strategy marker, cheat for Dismember and bury. Next turn, you pop up next to them and, if necessary, kill them with the Pick the Bones trigger. Those are a few loops to jump through, so it will not always work, but keep it in the back of your mind. Gravedigger Role: utility/support I would like to include a Gravedigger more often, especially in combination with Bone Piles. Propably their biggest issue is their survivability. Even for a support model, they are delicate with their large base, low health and lack of defensive abilities. Their best protection is to apply pressure elsewhere with other models, which does not always work. Sadly, I usually cannot find enough free points for them. Only in pools where they can be central to scoring at least two of your strategy/schemes (e.g. Leylines + Research Mission), they become worthy of their cost. Dead Rider Role: beater, utility I still have to find a crew, which does not benefit from including the rider. Its damage potential is not as needed as in other crews, but a mobile beatstick like him will nearly always find usage. Tormented specifically like to have another taxi and love to get enemy models pushed into their bubble. This combines very well with Jaakuna’s lure. Both on your flanks and your opponent will think twice to try to sneak around your bubble. Manos Role: utility, debuff As usual, Manos is a mobile schemer with Demise hate, who can also hurt stuff if necessary. But with Tormented, his Spirit Barrage is especially noteworthy. An 12” AOE Staggered trigger without TN once you have hit your original target is easily worth stoning and cheating for in this crew. The whole package he brings makes him a serious consideration, even when you do not need his Demise hate. Nurse Role: heal/condition support Usually, I prefer Bone Piles for healing/condition hate due to their offensive and mobility capabilities. Bedside manner is not as needed as with other crews, your models are quite tough on their own or your opponent is hesitant to get close to your bubble anyway. But it would be foolish to ignore their capabilities completely, if you only need a heal bot and nothing else from your non-keyword pick, they are your go-to model. Carrion Effigy Role: utility/heal support The effigy has two things going for it: First, it is our cheapest heal-bot for undead. If you cannot afford a Bone Pile or a Nurse (which offer more to the crew), he can at least cover your healing. But be aware it cannot heal Ligeia, Hanged and Jaakuna, which is a downer in my point of view. Second is his Aura of Decay. If your opponent has enough confidence to go into your bubble, it is likely with a model capable of stoning. Its aura makes sure they do not stay longer in your bubble than necessary and might make scoring Assassinate or Vendetta easier. Mourner Role: utility They are the only model to counter ruthless. Sadly, this great rule sticks to a bad model and only helps against melee based ruthless. The corpse can assist with an early-game corpse, e.g. for a Bone Pile teleport, but overall I cannot give them a recommendation. Usually, it would be better to simply safe SS for stoning to avoid damage. There might be niche cases though, so I regard them as a rare option. Necropunk Role: schemer As scheme runner, they were so good, they could be taken in any crew. This changed with GG2 and their new requirement for masks on their leap. But Tormented is one of the crews with enough card draw to still include them. While you want to avoid duels, their crews ability can draw you cards, in contrast to most other OOK options. Sloth Role: heal/buff support While Sloth will always be a solid pick in an undead crew, I do not think he is a priority pick for Tormented. Handing out fast is always great and might be worth the stones already, but his heal drawback requires you to take another model to get rid of slow and spend another action. His undead restriction does not allow to support the models you want to the most. He might be helpful if you have trouble against strong healing, together with Hanged, it becomes quite unappealing with a big footprint, but I have never run in such a situation. Student of Steel Role: offensive support Armour hate on a stick. Not a high priority pick, even against high armour lists, but it might make dealing with them easier. You can run into trouble getting the student into position, most your mobility abilities do not work on non-Tormented friendly models. Jakuuna is the exception here, she can lure him along. Anna Lovelave Role: utility She is solid without any support and gets taken as a tech piece against summoners and flyers for her Gravity Well ability alone. She fits quite well into Daw's playstile, with two (!) debuffs auras, the chance to draw cards, reasonable toughness and offensive. Personally, I am a big fan of her Glimpse trigger, as it can send anything, that even Tormented might have trouble getting rid of, back to wherever your opponent has to spend actions to return them into a proper position. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaag Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 On 7/9/2021 at 4:20 PM, Graf said: In-keyword models Jack Daw Role: killer, curses, card draw His first card is pretty straight forward. It may be just me, but I often forget Disturbing Whispers, be better than that! Also remember: Due to Ghost of Malifaux, Jack Daw cannot body block, but if they move through him normally, they still need to disengage. A question you will encounter with him is: Do I use my Slow AOE or do I just kill one model? There is no easy answer, both can be a strong play. My general guideline is: killing a model takes at least 2 actions (per turn) away from your opponent and might give you last activation. But Slow can take away 1 action per model in range. TN13 is good, but will not go through with every model, therefore I take extra time to consider Whispered Truth once he catches at least 4 models and/or needs to slow down multiple models. Daw’s first turn usually consist of rushing forward and dragging something along with Drawn to Betrayal, to establish dominance over the middle of the board as soon as possible. Turn #1 (if possible) and turn #2 is used to apply as many curses as possible. Do not hold back and spend all his actions, if you have targets, you will need those curses going forward. If your opponent was nice enough to give you enough (now cursed) models close-by, you can start drawing cards. Luckily, Suppressed Memories both applies a curse and lets you teleport to your enemy – do not hesitate to spend stones! You better start drawing a considerable amount now, if you start turn #3 it might be still okay, but you will feel the difference. Upgrades Grave Spirit’s Touch: After getting a few games in, I was under the impression that you need this upgrade less, the more experienced you are with Daw. Blasphemous Ritual is wasted on Daw and after turn #1 he has other things to do with his bonus action. I returned more and more to GST though, the longer I played Tormented. The thought is true regarding his survivability, but if you can gauge his toughness better, it also means you can afford to be more aggressive with him, if necessary. Regen +2 also means you save up to two hand cards you could use well somewhere else. In short: While it is not mandatory, if you can take GST, do it! Killer Instinct: A worthy upgrade for Daw’s offensive, but I take it only if I require Ruthless, but then I do it gladly. Wasting a master’s action or cards for a failed terrifying check is rather bothersome. Loot their corpses is solid, if you do not need these markers for something else. Daw is deadly and can collect a few stones over the course of a game. The Whisper: It is well known how good Intuition is on a master and being the killer he is, Daw can even draw you a few additional cards. Despite this, Whisper is the upgrade I take the least. All three are good options, but I have found that GST ito be the better pick and Killer Instinct is mandatory against certain crews. If I take Whisper, it is usually because I do not need KI and both Hanged already get GST. Lady Ligeia Role: aura and debuff support Ligeia’s debuff aura is the strongest reason, why it is dangerous to go into the Tormented bubble. Even when it combines with only occasional discard, it gets expensive for your opponent very fast. A single, strong model can get some cheats through, but if you have to deal with only one model, it generally is to your benefit as long as they cannot teleport out. Sadly, she also is not very survivable. Measure well how far she needs to be to cover your models and keep an eye out for models with longer (melee) ranges. Her Projected Voice attack is what she usually spends her action for other than moving. The damage is surprisingly solid for a Totem, but the important part is guaranteed Stagger trigger on blast. Her stat is rather low though, if you really need to debuff something with her, better plan to cheat for the attack. Since she prefers not to be in direct contact with the enemy, Talons is largely irrelevant – except when used on your own Guiltys. Montressor Role: utility, tank Montressor will always have things to do, since he can obey any non-master Tormented model. There is not much finesse to him, just look which models need an extra action. His attacks are solid and their triggers fit well to Tormented with the possibility for min. 3 and Execute. Noteworthy, he is a great roadblock with Terrifying, HtW, 10 Health and his Demise ability. I have found Suffocation and Hanging Ropes are nice to have, but usually not worth playing into them. My biggest “problem” with Montressor is keeping up with the rest of the crew. He has no native mobility option and therefore requires being pulled by other models, if he wants to make use of Cured To Watch until you established a good position for your bubble. Guilty Role: utility support Guilty decouple many of Tormented’s janky movement abilities from enemy models and their positioning because you may count them as enemy models. With this, they are an absolute cornerstone for the crew’s mobility and counteract the crew’s common Mv4. You will find examples of such plays with Daw or Hanged later in this guide. Whenever your opponent does not give you enough good target to curse and draw cards from with Daw, you can employ Guilty instead. As long as they keep 1 life, it does not have any drawback. What do you do with Guilty other than taking hits? They are usually the first models I activate during early game. They are one of the few who do not ignore terrain, so they need a good position to go straight forward during deployment. A perfect position for them is within 8-10” to the enemy’s line, so they can serve as jumping off points or retrieval targets, while they themselves are in range to apply Staggered themselves and/or can drop scheme markers. After you are done with your Hanged and Daw, Ligeia comes in and removes the curse from them with her Take It All trigger. Likely you will have to cheat a ram in, so you will not have more cards, but it can help with cycling through your deck. How many Guilty do you need? Sadly, I cannot answer that clearly. One is absolutely mandatory and you should not let it die quickly without being very sure you get one back asap with their demise/curse. If you play 2 Hanged, it is sensible to go up to two Guilty if you can afford it. It massively increases your ability to jump from one flank to another within a single turn and gives you the option to leave one of their curses on your opponent without suffering unnecessary control loss over your teleport capabilities. Hanged Role: mobile beater, occasional schemer I lovingly call my Hanged 10SS Henchman, as they operate similarly once you give them an upgrade. For me, they are the most important pick for Tormented, even though they are quite an investment. They give Tormented much needed mobility and I rarely leave without 2 of them. With them and Daw you can make use of every card in your hand, even the Black Joker. With a bonus action attack, they are a pseudo-3AP model and their usual attack pattern look as following: Safe approach: Toss the Noose + On your heel trigger on enemy, 1-2x Dead Man's Collar on enemy, Horrifying Whisper on Guilty (tactical retreat) Aggressive approach: Toss the Noose on enemy, Horrifying Whipser + On your heel trigger on enemy, 1-2x Dead Man's Collar The combination of Hanged, Guilty and Dead Outlaws is potent. Guilty provide a scheme marker, Outlaws hand out Fast and Hanged therefore become AP4 models with a huge threat range (up to >20” with 3 attacks). It is one thing to read about it and another to see how much ground they can cover. I will cover their movement shenanigans more in a later post. It is of note, that Hanged require either Guilty and/or enemies for their mobility. This means, the more models you kill, the less teleport options you will have. This means success in your killing game can lead to trouble with scoring during late game. Be aware of this and try not to avoid scheming until then. Upgrades While Hanged are good models without any upgrades, they turn them up to 11. Definitely take them, all of them are legit choices. GST: Hanged have solid defensive capabilities, but their Df4 will be felt sooner or later. GST helps you twice: Increased Terrifying means your opponent will have to dedicate a serious amount of resources to get rid of them within a single turn, as long as you do not run in front of a ruthless beatstick. If they do not, they will start to heal back up with Regen. My biggest reason not to always give both of my Hanged GST, is that they compete with Daw over it and I like to play my Hanged redundant with the same upgrade. Same as with Daw, Ritual is largely wasted on them, but the other two abilities are worth it already. KI: Prime models to give Ruthless if necessary, since Hanged can pick their target more freely than most Tormented models. Due to Plentiful 2, I prefer KI on Hanged and something else on Daw. Other than Daw they also benefit from the minion-only ability, which eases the necessity to stone for their teleports and often makes them double up as a schemer. TW: Similar to Daw, the other upgrades usually have a higher priority. But occasionally I take Whisper on them, if my opponent forces many Wp duels. Dead Outlaw Role: (anti) schemer, support It honestly baffles me, why Outlaws are rarely recommended. I guess a circular logic lies at the bottom. People assume Tormented is a pure killer and bubble crew, without any scheming potential and therefore do not take Daw when the pool involves anything other than murdering – which is not when Outlaws reach their full potential and therefore get branded as underperforming models and are not testes in more scheme heavy pools, strengthening the first assumption. Outlaws are what I consider the crew’s scheme runners. They are not great when compared to dedicated runners, but Run & Gun at least gives them the ability to move while they use their attacks at the same time. Their abilities also make them very flexible, and I usually try to squeeze at least one into my list and often take two, if the pool demands it. While Hanged can also drop schemes with their attacks, catching an enemy model at a suitable location is much more likely, when it comes on a 12” gun. Staggered and Slow also are much more useful at that range. Outlaws are the only in-crew source for Fast. They are the reason, why Guilty will always have productive activations, they can drop a marker to provide the cost. Naturally, it is better to destroy an enemy marker and get Fast on top of it! Even if Outlaws move away from the bubble, they can remove one marker for free each turn, putting Fast on themselves (it is not an attack action). Crooked Man I have never seriously played them, even do not own them. That might be due to them being hard/expensive to obtain in my area, but I have not missed them much. Their min. 3 trigger and blast Staggered looks appealing, but they are a bit too expensive when I could take cheaper options for the similar capabilities. In theory they combine well with Drowned, Jakuuna and Montresor, but this pronounces their price tag even more. While Malifaux Mining Law is unique and may be helpful in certain situations, I prefer to simply not pick schemes which would require their protection. But I would be happy to hear any success stories about them and which factors lead to it! Jaakuna Ubume Role: utility She is a control piece. Lure on stat 7 is great, especially when the enemy is already close to Daw and suffers -1 Wp. It has two main functions: Scoring control and pulling enemy models into your death bubble. This is especially important for a bubble crew, because scheme runners can potentially sneak past on your flanks. With her, you do not need to run after them to hunt them down. Be aware, while she has okay defensive capabilities, she is a bit squishy for a Tormented model. Do not leave her alone, she likes to stick to your bubble. This is also where you can benefit most from her bonus action aura, stacking with the other auras from Daw/Ligeia. Drowned Role: utility While Kirai can summon them wherever they are needed, Tormented have to actually move them across the board, to make use of their min. 3 trigger attack. Since all your mobility abilities for other models are single target, there is a built-in limit, which can leave Drowned behind. On the plus side they apply Staggered with a ranged bonus action and Projectile Vomit can both Debuff beaters who are brave enough to come close to your bubble or mess with your opponent’s positioning – a footprint of 6”+50mm covers a lot of ground, though it requires a suit. All in all one could say they are more of a control model for Tormented, instead of a beater minion, which is another reason why I usually take only one, as more are not needed for this task. Versatile & OOK models I have often read that Tormented plays in-keyword only. I beg to differ. Spending 25% of your points for non-keyword models might not always be necessary but is absolutely normal for Tormented. You can go up to 50% without running into major trouble. You just need to look out to include enough curses and draw sufficient cards. Bone Pile Role: heal/condition support, teleporting schemer Who played against me more than once knows, I am a fan of Bone Piles. Personal preference aside, there are very good reason to take them with Tormented, since they cover two of their main weaknesses: lack of healing and lack of condition removal. Against condition crews (e.g. Pandora) I like to take two of them. Even if their Throw ‘Em A Bone ability is not needed in a given turn, they still can shoot stuff from the safety of your bubble. In Corrupted Ley Lines they are my turn#1 Lodestone bearer. Move to the first strategy marker turn #1/2 and bring a 2nd model into position. Turn #3 you bury and therefore throw the Lodestone any distance to the closest model – the one you positioned to be in range to go to the next marker. Turn #4 you unbury at marker 3, all you need until then is a close corpse token. Break the line might also benefit from them, though it needs a few more resources. Shoot a scheme runner shoving a strategy marker, cheat for Dismember and bury. Next turn, you pop up next to them and, if necessary, kill them with the Pick the Bones trigger. Those are a few loops to jump through, so it will not always work, but keep it in the back of your mind. Gravedigger Role: utility/support I would like to include a Gravedigger more often, especially in combination with Bone Piles. Commonly, I cannot find enough free point for them though. In my opinion they should be central to scoring at least two of your strategy/schemes (e.g. Leylines + Research Mission) to take them in your list. Dead Rider Role: beater, utility I still have to find a crew, which does not benefit from including the rider. Its damage potential is not as needed as in other crews, but a mobile beatstick like him will nearly always find usage. Tormented specifically like to have another taxi and love to get enemy models pushed into their bubble. This combines very well with Jaakuna’s lure. Both on your flanks and your opponent will think twice to try to sneak around your bubble. Manos Role: utility, debuff As usual, Manos is a mobile schemer with Demise hate, who can also hurt stuff if necessary. But with Tormented, his Spirit Barrage is especially noteworthy. An 12” AOE Staggered trigger without TN once you have hit your original target is easily worth stoning and cheating for in this crew. The whole package he brings makes him a serious consideration, even when you do not need his Demise hate. Nurse Role: heal/condition support Usually, I prefer Bone Piles for healing/condition hate due to their offensive and mobility capabilities. Bedside manner is not as needed as with other crews, your models are quite tough on their own or your opponent is hesitant to get close to your bubble anyway. But it would be foolish to ignore their capabilities completely, if you only need a heal bot and nothing else from your non-keyword pick, they are your go-to model. Mourner Role: utility They are the only model to counter ruthless. Sadly, this great rule sticks to a bad model and only helps against melee based ruthless. The corpse can assist with an early-game corpse, e.g. for a Bone Pile teleport, but overall I cannot give them a recommendation. Usually, it would be better to simply safe SS for stoning to avoid damage. There might be niche cases though, so I regard them as a rare option. Necropunk Role: schemer As scheme runner, they were so good, they could be taken in any crew. This changed with GG2 and their new requirement for masks on their leap. But Tormented is one of the crews with enough card draw to still include them. While you want to avoid duels, their crews ability can draw you cards, in contrast to most other OOK options. Sloth Role: heal/buff support While Sloth will always be a solid pick in an undead crew, I do not think he is a priority pick for Tormented. Handing out fast is always great and might be worth the stones already, but his heal drawback requires you to take another model to get rid of slow and spend another action. He might be helpful if you have trouble against strong healing, together with Hanged, it becomes quite unappealing with a big footprint, but I have never run in such a situation. Student of Steel Role: offensive support Armour hate on a stick. Not a high priority pick, even against high armour lists, but it might make dealing with them easier. You can run into trouble getting the student into position, most your mobility abilities do not work on non-Tormented friendly models. Jakuuna is the exception here, she can lure him along. Anna Lovelave Role: utility She is solid without any support and gets taken as a tech piece against summoners and flyers for her Gravity Well ability alone. She fits quite well into Daw's playstile, with two (!) debuffs auras, the chance to draw cards, reasonable toughness and offensive. Personally, I am a big fan of her Glimpse trigger, as it can send anything, that even Tormented might have trouble getting rid of, back to wherever your opponent has to spend actions to return them into a proper position. where are datsue ba, effigy, mindless zombie? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 4 hours ago, Plaag said: where are datsue ba, effigy, mindless zombie? Effigy: I prefer Bone Piles/Nurse for healing, while they cost more, they also bring much more to the table. Anti-healing aura is already covered by Hanged (anti-stoning not though). If nothing else, it is at least a cheap heal bot, worth a thought if you do not have 6-7SS left. I think I will listen to your feedback here and include it in the list, even though I do not have much to say about it. Mindless Zombie: Is there anything noteworthy about them here? Datsue Ba: I know she sees a lot of (OOK) play in some areas. Not so for me. Her unique stick, summoning, requires way to many hoops to jump through OOK. Not good enough imho for a 10SS model, which you need to spend SS/cards for to get results. In GG2 the summoning even lost scoring value. Her other abilities... Demise hate: Manos works better with Tormented. Staggered: Manos is way better and Drowned can do the same for less SS. You could include both Yakuuna and Drowned to benefit from her Guide Spirit. But as written before, I cannot see more than one (maaaybe two in very rare cases) Drowned in this crew and a single bonus action walk does not change that. Imho she is not worth her points here. Even if one plans to put a lot of points into Yakuuna/Drowned, a question rises in me: Why not play Kirai/Urami from the start? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaag Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 7 hours ago, Graf said: Effigy: I prefer Bone Piles/Nurse for healing, while they cost more, they also bring much more to the table. Anti-healing aura is already covered by Hanged (anti-stoning not though). If nothing else, it is at least a cheap heal bot, worth a thought if you do not have 6-7SS left. I think I will listen to your feedback here and include it in the list, even though I do not have much to say about it. Mindless Zombie: Is there anything noteworthy about them here? Datsue Ba: I know she sees a lot of (OOK) play in some areas. Not so for me. Her unique stick, summoning, requires way to many hoops to jump through OOK. Not good enough imho for a 10SS model, which you need to spend SS/cards for to get results. In GG2 the summoning even lost scoring value. Her other abilities... Demise hate: Manos works better with Tormented. Staggered: Manos is way better and Drowned can do the same for less SS. You could include both Yakuuna and Drowned to benefit from her Guide Spirit. But as written before, I cannot see more than one (maaaybe two in very rare cases) Drowned in this crew and a single bonus action walk does not change that. Imho she is not worth her points here. Even if one plans to put a lot of points into Yakuuna/Drowned, a question rises in me: Why not play Kirai/Urami from the start? effigy can play in most crews with upgrade of fate and first 2 turns he can heal undead and walk+take focus if i had some way in arcanists to pay 2 ss for mass focus-i would pay them; zombie can be taken for this datsue ba-she can make drowned/jakuna walk/charge and she is much more tanky than manos because in jack she has terrifying 13+incorp, and she summon with atack against wp, so stat 7 near jack and st.clair can be added to this list as anti-summon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 Isn't it a major downside that effigy can't heal hanged? Also his heal is an action (not a bonus), so he can't walk + focus + heal. If he could he'd be sooooo much better IMO. I do like Mindless Zombies for focus if you can spare the AP and positioning, although there's also sometimes better options (like you have to ask if it is worth including a gravedigger or a mourner at that point). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaag Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said: Isn't it a major downside that effigy can't heal hanged? Also his heal is an action (not a bonus), so he can't walk + focus + heal. If he could he'd be sooooo much better IMO. I do like Mindless Zombies for focus if you can spare the AP and positioning, although there's also sometimes better options (like you have to ask if it is worth including a gravedigger or a mourner at that point). effigy is still 6ss significant model that become 10ss emissary and zombie cost only 2 ss, but gravedigger cost 6 and in tormented crew he is not good at all 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Plaag said: effigy is still 6ss significant model that become 10ss emissary and zombie cost only 2 ss, but gravedigger cost 6 and in tormented crew he is not good at all So you would pay 2 ss for 1 corpse marker (and therefore 1 pulse of focus+1), but 6ss for potentially 6 corpse markers or more pulses is not worth it even if it lets you get 2 rituals off at the start of the game? I would agree that in general the grave digger is not worth the effort. I'm not sure that the Zombie is worth the cost though. Effigy is always a good shout for 4 stones. I worry when people put the upgrade on them that they spend too much time protecting their investment in the early game to make the 4 ss saving worth it for the reduced amount of affect you have on the game, especially when you are also talking about spending 2ss on a zombie to be a corpse, and the emissary can summon a zombie easily on the first turn. (I'm fairly certain that Emissary beats effigy +upgrade + Zombie + 2 ss, but I also know that it is rarely going to be that choice). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 4 hours ago, Adran said: I would agree that in general the grave digger is not worth the effort. I'm not sure that the Zombie is worth the cost though. Effigy is always a good shout for 4 stones. I worry when people put the upgrade on them that they spend too much time protecting their investment in the early game to make the 4 ss saving worth it for the reduced amount of affect you have on the game I am in the same boat. In Tormented the Effigy is reasonably protected against melee, but it can still catch a bullet. I picked models for this list which somehow interact well with the crew (Student hardly made it e.g.) and "one 6SS model becomes 10SS" is not enough reason for me. My list picks have to provide something to the crew, not just be playable models on their own. If that is the standard, I would have to include dozens of OOK choices to cover them all. I think a Gravedigger is a solid utility piece for certain strategies (Break the Line, Leylines) and schemes (Research Mission, Deathbed) though. Tormented itself does not need corpses, but I always have GST and/or Killer Instinct somewhere and often a Bone Pile. When those reasons combine, the Digger becomes a valid choice imho. From those games, I know the turn #1 focus pulse is nice and it is kind of a staple for all crews and factions, but I never felt like I want to spend list SS just for a walking corpse marker. But I have not tried it in my games, so I am sceptical but will not put a final verdict out. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaag Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 3 hours ago, Graf said: I am in the same boat. In Tormented the Effigy is reasonably protected against melee, but it can still catch a bullet. I picked models for this list which somehow interact well with the crew (Student hardly made it e.g.) and "one 6SS model becomes 10SS" is not enough reason for me. My list picks have to provide something to the crew, not just be playable models on their own. If that is the standard, I would have to include dozens of OOK choices to cover them all. I think a Gravedigger is a solid utility piece for certain strategies (Break the Line, Leylines) and schemes (Research Mission, Deathbed) though. Tormented itself does not need corpses, but I always have GST and/or Killer Instinct somewhere and often a Bone Pile. When those reasons combine, the Digger becomes a valid choice imho. From those games, I know the turn #1 focus pulse is nice and it is kind of a staple for all crews and factions, but I never felt like I want to spend list SS just for a walking corpse marker. But I have not tried it in my games, so I am sceptical but will not put a final verdict out. most of jack crews goes with 7-6 ss left and u cannt hire useless models like gravedigger in tormented, but 2 ss for mass focus is very cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted July 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 I use GST on Daw most often and I usually do other stuff with his bonus action, but I will try it out when I get a chance! Though I fear it is hard to judge the value objectively, as focus vs. stoning depends on a lot of (more or less random) factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEV Posted July 15, 2021 Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 3 hours ago, Graf said: I use GST on Daw most often and I usually do other stuff with his bonus action, but I will try it out when I get a chance! Though I fear it is hard to judge the value objectively, as focus vs. stoning depends on a lot of (more or less random) factors. You are right. A way to think about it is how much stone would you pay at the beginning of the game to gain x fous. I think it's probably around a 2:5 / 1:3 ratio... so if you can pulse more than 5 focus with GST + Zombie it might be good (but it also cost positioning constraints + activation order + a master bonus action + a pass token because you hire the Zombie)... So the cost here is a bit iffy IMO but not unreasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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