Guild in Macklemourning (Des Moines June 2021)

[Yore Huckleberry]

Just a quick re-cap of running Guild in GG2 at the Des Moines tournament.

We had about 6 of the top 25 players from the MWS there (so a lot of the non-Texas Americans), so a good strong field.

Packet is here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LqINYIAWf72RWv7qi1nL0MBIAxWNcUrcKDmfP6xOcI0/edit?fbclid=IwAR2JF8wl9W_3c0_cVfyshm2Dqh01U-zhP7haxtEhy4Eb4slQHcDhM0HYBPM

Round One:
I had prepped Hoffman for this pool (deny assassinate, threaten all schemes, throw a watcher or two back for the symbols), but hit an ES opponent and read Ivan, so I declared Lady J and took Research Mission and Breakthrough, figuring I could flank with my master and then deep-dive her for symbols and breakthrough. There was also an elevated walkway and I had attacker, so I started J up there, looking for some security and leap range. I brought Lone Marshal to pop summons, Pale Rider and Domador for the fight, the Jury as AP spread and incidental summon damage, and Dr Grimwell for out of activation movement and a second fast figure who could threaten the symbols (I'm trying to get this figure to work, and having issues there). Cache 6 or so, after a LLC on Lady J.

Played against Roman running Ivan, Mordrake, Eva (secret passage), Rook, a Nocturne, an Operative, Gibson, and Vernon and Welles -- I think there may have been an upgrade on somebody.

Round one I dropped the Operative on the approach with the Lone Marshal and was able to prevent summoning by outflipping his single attack onto one of my horses, as I recall. I believe he killed my totem, which had double-walked forward to blow up some destructible terrain. Lady J went right to deal with Rook and Eva on the walkway, while everyone else in both crews went to my left. I wanted to keep my ranged advantage through round 2, so I kept fairly far back, using the Jury and Domador to get obeys out of the Riders. Grimwell used Dr's Orders to move J forward, but held back -- not sure how best to use him, but I decided I wanted to preserve the "explode forward" threat and rely on Lady J to get my first symbol. Lady J activated last and got a swing or two onto Corvis, but nothing major. I drew an 11C and 10C, which I saved for the Lone Marshal.

Round two I dropped the Nocturne before it was relevant and put some damage into Vernon and Welles, getting it more cautious. Ivan and Mordrake came forward and we began a summon dance with the Lone Marshal where Ivan would get a summon off with some min damage into Hard to Wound, and the Lone Marshal would then activate and kill the summon with an exorcism trigger on startle to heal back 2. Lady J leapt away from Rook to get my first symbol; Eva teleported forward to get his.

Round three the Pale Rider attempted to tie up Ivan, Gibson, and Mordrake with an initiative advantage to stop my left-side symbols, while the domador, Jury, and Grimwell meat-shielded the third that was near Eva. Mordrake simply shadow-stepped to his own aura to get away from the Rider and picked one up; I responded with Lady J leap/walking to another symbol, dropped a scheme marker for Breakthrough and then forgot that you need a model in the deployment zone and walked Lady J back out to get back towards the fight.Some minor fighting between the models in the middle, and the Lone Marshal either tanked away his summoning options or he got off another Brocken Spectre and I immediately exorcised it -- I popped two through the game in rounds 2-4. I noted that he was showing Research Mission but didn't declare it, and decided he must have Death Beds instead, as he'd been dropping scheme markers on AP in pacing activations. We both scored strat; I scored research mission on his shadow marker, scheme, and the corpse of the operative and tried to reveal breakthrough only to be reminded of the full terms. Eva scored breakthrough reveal for him.

Round four, with schemes basically known, turned attention to the fight in the middle. He tried to tie up the Lone Marshal and did some damage to it, but ultimately he summoned a brocken and I popped it. He DID manage to make me use LM AP in a way that prevented me getting to his deployment zone, and chased Lady J with Corvis Rook to be within the distance to prevent reveal. Eva got to a strat marker and I finally abandoned my own backfield with Grimwell, triple-walking him forward to make a fourth model across the line for Research Mission endgame. Ivan, Mordrake, and Gibson started charging my deployment zone to set down more markers. The Pale Rider got good pulse damage off. We were tight on time and both had some misplays.

We barely turned the corner into round five and got a few activations each, scoring our full symbols. I never was able to break away Lady J from Corvis, and ultimately had to choose between the endpoint of research mission and the reveal of breakthrough. He easily had the endpoint of death beds. The game wound up decided on time, as I had the Jury as the last-activation and focus-obey'd Gibson to pick up the scheme marker he'd dropped for breakthrough, setting him back to four strat, one breakthrough, and endpoint of death beds. If he had an activation, Ivan could have leap-walk-schemed to restore that point; if he had killed my lone marshal with his last AP, he might have denied RM's endpoint, while if I had remembered the breakthrough reveal properly (I play Guild, guys; I don't score breakthrough!) I would have had a 7-6 win, or possibly a 6-6 draw still. Good game; great opponent; we both really enjoyed it and felt like there was good play and counterplay.

Postgame: it's scary how effective Ivan is, that even having exactly the cards I needed to stop his summoning cold, we played to a high-scoring draw.

 

 

[Yore Huckleberry]

Round Two: Turf War

This pairing was a bit odd, but I played the ringer, who was just running a set Wong crew that he'd borrowed for the whole day. We played on a brewery with a fair amount of dense/concealing/severe terrain (crowds of patrons), and it was corner deployment. I ran Basse into this with Let Them Bleed and Assassinate, and really just slaughtered things on approach, since not even the pigapault could get models positioned properly. A few models tried to take advantage of concealment to tax my AP, and Basse set the terrain to hazardous and pulled Alphonse out. In round two guns and Bernadette were able to clear a taxidermist that had claimed a flank turf marker, and the Sand Worm was able to pop up and kill his significant totem near a severe-crowd of people to flip his starting turf marker back. This one was really just a straight up slaughter, although Alphonse red joker'd damage into Basse and nearly killed him. A LLC and a 1-point stone kept him above hard to kill, though, and with a Rider ready to hit Devastation and heal, I wound up in the clear. We called it in round 3 at 8-0.

[Yore Huckleberry]

Round Three: Break the Line

I had been planning Nellie into this but hit Explorers again and again hard-read Ivan, so I switched back to Lady J.

I decided I needed more frontline and dropped my Domador, LLC, and a stone to pack the Brutal Emissary (whose crowd control can also stop Daeva placement attacks). Otherwise I kept Pale Rider, Jury, Lone Marshal, and Dr Grimwell (looking for Dr's Orders to enable him to break engagement and interact, or nimble to allow toss/walk/toss).

He brought Ivan, Mordrake, Archivist, a Crypsis Corps with Hidden Agenda (damage for cheating), Grave Goo with Flush with Cash, a Nocturne, and Gibson.

The map involved two high platforms with severe/dense/concealing crowds in the middle. I set the Lone Marshal on a high platform with my crew around it, Pale Rider and Grimwell towards the farthest marker, and the remainder of the crew staged behind the platform to walk around and towards the major set of strat markers. I took Death Beds on shadow markers assuming he'd have plenty, and Bait and Switch on Mordrake, assuming he'd be somewhere forward, and looking for a heave attack with the Brutal Emissary (I never did get the ram I needed for that).

Round One the Crypsis started, focused for range and hit moderate to kill my totem, eating the damage back, so he wound up with activation control back. Lone Marshal put a few shots into Gibson, but otherwise I was mostly cagey. He used a crow with Gibson's tools to put burn out fast on the Grave Goo, and used it late in the round to launch forward and swallow Grimwell. I went last with Lady J and leapt forward to throw a symbol over, saving a 13M for a counterattack if he summoned; Ivan was able to summon a Brocken off her and used its non-attack actions to do further damage to Lady J.

Round Two he won initiative with archivist help and kept hammering my master. Lady J failed to kill the Brocken for heal help and I saved my high cards hoping for a counterattack kill. Grimwell remained poisoned and stuck in the Grave Goo, and I had no high crows for the Lone Marshal. The Brutal Emissary helped me double commitment to my tossed-across strat marker, and he used Mordrake to scheme and set up Death Beds. He got a Daeva summoned off the Brutal Emissary and it helped lower the defenses of Lady J with base contact for a kill from the Brocken, dropping my overextended master turn two and declaring death beds. Lone Marshal tried to shoot down the Grave Goo with no luck and the Pale Rider ran forward to throw another strat marker across; he sent the Nocturne to tie it up and started working on its wound pool with the archivist and Crypsis Corps. I managed to score strat while denying his, but he was way up on attrition and the fight.

Round Three to Five essentially continued that; Grave Goo was in terrain such that if Grimwell popped out he would immediately die to the hazardous effect, forcing me to fail the exit-duel and then pass activation with him. His team dropped the Pale Rider before it could clear the Nocturne, and it threw the marker back to deny my second strat. Lone Marshal had to run up and drop a scheme marker to set up my death beds, and I tried to top-deck an exorcism trigger into concealment and failed (missed the red joker I was fishing for by one card). He mused about self-killing the Daeva with some ability but we weren't sure if the rules allowed it, and we moved to round 3 with him scoring strat and either scoring or setting up for Spread them Out. I lost Grimwell to poison.

Round Four I pulled off Death Beds with the Brutal Emissary clearing the Daeva and he scored another strat marker while setting up more scheming for Spread Them Out. I raced the Lone Marshal to the table edge to toss a marker over, but he was able to shade step Mordrake with some marker help from Ivan and throw it back.

Round Five we were pinched for time, but he walked Grave Goo to my deployment zone and scored his spread them out markers again as well as the second point of death beds; I couldn't get a second marker across, but he missed the cost on Bait and Switch and I scored the endpoint.

7-3 loss.

 

I think I had a better shot if I had kept my team together; trying to prevent him attaining any symbol was successful round one, but spread my crew too thin. Similarly, Lady J could have kept cagey round one, rather than looking for an early advantage tossing a marker over and trying to out-stat Ivan for summoning. I DID have rough hands, but I think I lost this one positionally in round one, when I had a few good cards (although he confessed afterwards that he drew into 3 severes, and then picked up a 12T with Gibson's Tools in round one).

Lone Marshal, Jury, and Brutal Emissary all look good as anti-Ivan tech to me, and I still think Grimwell has play, but this game swung hard away from me.

[4thstringer]

20 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

Just a quick re-cap of running Guild in GG2 at the Des Moines tournament.

We had about 6 of the top 25 players from the MWS there (so a lot of the non-Texas Americans), so a good strong field.

Packet is here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LqINYIAWf72RWv7qi1nL0MBIAxWNcUrcKDmfP6xOcI0/edit?fbclid=IwAR2JF8wl9W_3c0_cVfyshm2Dqh01U-zhP7haxtEhy4Eb4slQHcDhM0HYBPM

Round One:
I had prepped Hoffman for this pool (deny assassinate, threaten all schemes, throw a watcher or two back for the symbols), but hit an ES opponent and read Ivan, so I declared Lady J and took Research Mission and Breakthrough, figuring I could flank with my master and then deep-dive her for symbols and breakthrough. There was also an elevated walkway and I had attacker, so I started J up there, looking for some security and leap range. I brought Lone Marshal to pop summons, Pale Rider and Domador for the fight, the Jury as AP spread and incidental summon damage, and Dr Grimwell for out of activation movement and a second fast figure who could threaten the symbols (I'm trying to get this figure to work, and having issues there). Cache 6 or so, after a LLC on Lady J.

Played against Roman running Ivan, Mordrake, Eva (secret passage), Rook, a Nocturne, an Operative, Gibson, and Vernon and Welles -- I think there may have been an upgrade on somebody.

Round one I dropped the Operative on the approach with the Lone Marshal and was able to prevent summoning by outflipping his single attack onto one of my horses, as I recall. I believe he killed my totem, which had double-walked forward to blow up some destructible terrain. Lady J went right to deal with Rook and Eva on the walkway, while everyone else in both crews went to my left. I wanted to keep my ranged advantage through round 2, so I kept fairly far back, using the Jury and Domador to get obeys out of the Riders. Grimwell used Dr's Orders to move J forward, but held back -- not sure how best to use him, but I decided I wanted to preserve the "explode forward" threat and rely on Lady J to get my first symbol. Lady J activated last and got a swing or two onto Corvis, but nothing major. I drew an 11C and 10C, which I saved for the Lone Marshal.

Round two I dropped the Nocturne before it was relevant and put some damage into Vernon and Welles, getting it more cautious. Ivan and Mordrake came forward and we began a summon dance with the Lone Marshal where Ivan would get a summon off with some min damage into Hard to Wound, and the Lone Marshal would then activate and kill the summon with an exorcism trigger on startle to heal back 2. Lady J leapt away from Rook to get my first symbol; Eva teleported forward to get his.

Round three the Pale Rider attempted to tie up Ivan, Gibson, and Mordrake with an initiative advantage to stop my left-side symbols, while the domador, Jury, and Grimwell meat-shielded the third that was near Eva. Mordrake simply shadow-stepped to his own aura to get away from the Rider and picked one up; I responded with Lady J leap/walking to another symbol, dropped a scheme marker for Breakthrough and then forgot that you need a model in the deployment zone and walked Lady J back out to get back towards the fight.Some minor fighting between the models in the middle, and the Lone Marshal either tanked away his summoning options or he got off another Brocken Spectre and I immediately exorcised it -- I popped two through the game in rounds 2-4. I noted that he was showing Research Mission but didn't declare it, and decided he must have Death Beds instead, as he'd been dropping scheme markers on AP in pacing activations. We both scored strat; I scored research mission on his shadow marker, scheme, and the corpse of the operative and tried to reveal breakthrough only to be reminded of the full terms. Eva scored breakthrough reveal for him.

Round four, with schemes basically known, turned attention to the fight in the middle. He tried to tie up the Lone Marshal and did some damage to it, but ultimately he summoned a brocken and I popped it. He DID manage to make me use LM AP in a way that prevented me getting to his deployment zone, and chased Lady J with Corvis Rook to be within the distance to prevent reveal. Eva got to a strat marker and I finally abandoned my own backfield with Grimwell, triple-walking him forward to make a fourth model across the line for Research Mission endgame. Ivan, Mordrake, and Gibson started charging my deployment zone to set down more markers. The Pale Rider got good pulse damage off. We were tight on time and both had some misplays.

We barely turned the corner into round five and got a few activations each, scoring our full symbols. I never was able to break away Lady J from Corvis, and ultimately had to choose between the endpoint of research mission and the reveal of breakthrough. He easily had the endpoint of death beds. The game wound up decided on time, as I had the Jury as the last-activation and focus-obey'd Gibson to pick up the scheme marker he'd dropped for breakthrough, setting him back to four strat, one breakthrough, and endpoint of death beds. If he had an activation, Ivan could have leap-walk-schemed to restore that point; if he had killed my lone marshal with his last AP, he might have denied RM's endpoint, while if I had remembered the breakthrough reveal properly (I play Guild, guys; I don't score breakthrough!) I would have had a 7-6 win, or possibly a 6-6 draw still. Good game; great opponent; we both really enjoyed it and felt like there was good play and counterplay.

Postgame: it's scary how effective Ivan is, that even having exactly the cards I needed to stop his summoning cold, we played to a high-scoring draw.

 

 

Do you not like Hoffman into Ivan? I've found that to not be horrible. Guardian and riotbreaker hurt his summon game considerably.

[4thstringer]

If I went to a tournament and faced Ivan twice I think I would be furious.  I don't think he was balanced for the same game as guild.

[Trample]

Good writeup - thanks for taking the time! It makes me think I should do the same for my experience with Outcasts, but I think I would struggle to reach the level of detail you have in your overviews. It is bad luck to run into Ivan twice in the tournament. Those were the only two explorers players in the tournament and you just wound up in their path! Oddly - no Arcanists there (15 entrants). 

[Angelshard]

Thanks for the detailed writeup. Out of curiosity, what was your Basse list?

[Yore Huckleberry]

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

Thanks for the detailed writeup. Out of curiosity, what was your Basse list?

Basse list was:

Cornelius w/ LLC (assassinate was in the pool)
Bernadette
Pale Rider w/ LLC
Lone Marshal
Sand Worm
Austringer
Pathfinder

I started in the SW corner; Bernadette and Austringer charged the NW and SE respectively, with gunline support from horses and pathfinder. Cornelius held down the center. Sand Worm buried round one and popped up round two to eat his totem and unflip his starter marker.

[Yore Huckleberry]

7 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Do you not like Hoffman into Ivan? I've found that to not be horrible. Guardian and riotbreaker hurt his summon game considerably.

Yeah, it was more a matter of I liked the elevated walkway for the Leap and I didn't want a Brocken summoned onto Charles with assassinate in the pool. The terrain just didn't look right for watcher-bombing. If I had wanted to kill Ivan, Riotbreaker(s) would definitely have been an option.

[Gaston]

On 6/15/2021 at 6:49 AM, 4thstringer said:

If I went to a tournament and faced Ivan twice I think I would be furious.  I don't think he was balanced for the same game as guild.

You crazy, Ivan has pretty distinct weaknesses, and I actually think Hoffman can cover him just fine. Or Lady J. Or Basse.

Or one of our locals just likes him too much and I've had to play into him nonstop for some months...

[4thstringer]

2 hours ago, Gaston said:

You crazy, Ivan has pretty distinct weaknesses, and I actually think Hoffman can cover him just fine. Or Lady J. Or Basse.

Or one of our locals just likes him too much and I've had to play into him nonstop for some months...

I'm definitely crazy, let's be clear about this.

[4thstringer]

12 hours ago, Gaston said:

You crazy, Ivan has pretty distinct weaknesses, and I actually think Hoffman can cover him just fine. Or Lady J. Or Basse.

Or one of our locals just likes him too much and I've had to play into him nonstop for some months...

On a slightly more serious note, what is your anti Ivan take?  I'm really liking a guardian and a riotbreaker.

[Gaston]

3 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

On a slightly more serious note, what is your anti Ivan take?  I'm really liking a guardian and a riotbreaker.

For Hoffman? The keyword. Hoffman disrespects Ivan, he can shove that bowler hat up his antiluminal bridge.

Dua/Umbra have damage tracks of 2/3/4 keyword wide. Hoffman has Armor +2 keyword wide. So in order to do more than 1 damage in any given instance, they either have to hit a severe or get the shadow pins trigger. Then they get to do....2 damage. And you have healing. And sheilded.

But wait....the Brocken Specter!!! ...who is also stuck at 2/3/4 damage. Versus Hoffman who has Temper Steel so your Brocken feels like it's hitting the button on a Tickle Me Elmo. Fortunately you also have Wardens who are Ruthless and care not for Terrifying.

Sure he can summon though...right? Ivan summoning is based on WP. Augmented has bad stats. Bad stats = bad summons. Hoffman and Joss are literally the only models that he can pull a Brocken off of...except Hoffman has Protected, and any attack Ivan throws at him needs to be pushed off to another construct. Or if you really need Joss (debatable) then you can bring in a Guardian to take some hits. And then Ivan loses the built in crow from concealment, so he has to stone and cheat to summon anything. Which will be a Daeva or a Nocturne. 

So he brings in the Daeva...who cannot attack because Riotbreaker has Crowd Control.

Flexibility Morality doesn't work because you have tokens for built in plusses. Eva struggles to target a marker because you have Blow it to Hell for shadow markers and you proactively vacuum up scrap markers, so much for Lock Away.

Negatives from concealment? Have some power token plusses! Not enough? Since you aren't taxed by LLC, you are free to actually bring in the other upgrades, which is turns out are SUPER LEGIT. Ignore Cover/Concealment/Friendly Fire on guns? Sure thing! Ignore Hazardous terrain and shockwaves and pulses, AND get to pop a beater over to Ivan's stuff? Fantastic. I'm not usually a Catch Them fan, but all you guns are Rng 8...and Peacekeeper is Mv 4...

So yeah, you still gotta play the schemes and strats right. Ivan isn't just gonna roll over, you'll have to kick him over. But it'll be a game largely dictated on your terms, not his, as you're pulling away all of Ivan's real advantages.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I've always thought armor 2 and low willpower should thrash Ivan, so nice to see that works out!

Although a note about Brocken. They probably want to hallowed glory multiple models for multiple pings anyway.

[Gaston]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I've always thought armor 2 and low willpower should thrash Ivan, so nice to see that works out!

Although a note about Brocken. They probably want to hallowed glory multiple models for multiple pings anyway.

This is why people need to look harder at No Prisoners!!!! It's great versus pingers, Brockens, Husks! So much unresisted ping damage we can avoid!!!

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Gaston said:

This is why people need to look harder at No Prisoners!!!! It's great versus pingers, Brockens, Husks! So much unresisted ping damage we can avoid!!!

Ooooo, no prisoners can reduce to 0. Nifty ^.^

[4thstringer]

5 hours ago, Gaston said:

For Hoffman? The keyword. Hoffman disrespects Ivan, he can shove that bowler hat up his antiluminal bridge.

Dua/Umbra have damage tracks of 2/3/4 keyword wide. Hoffman has Armor +2 keyword wide. So in order to do more than 1 damage in any given instance, they either have to hit a severe or get the shadow pins trigger. Then they get to do....2 damage. And you have healing. And sheilded.

But wait....the Brocken Specter!!! ...who is also stuck at 2/3/4 damage. Versus Hoffman who has Temper Steel so your Brocken feels like it's hitting the button on a Tickle Me Elmo. Fortunately you also have Wardens who are Ruthless and care not for Terrifying.

Sure he can summon though...right? Ivan summoning is based on WP. Augmented has bad stats. Bad stats = bad summons. Hoffman and Joss are literally the only models that he can pull a Brocken off of...except Hoffman has Protected, and any attack Ivan throws at him needs to be pushed off to another construct. Or if you really need Joss (debatable) then you can bring in a Guardian to take some hits. And then Ivan loses the built in crow from concealment, so he has to stone and cheat to summon anything. Which will be a Daeva or a Nocturne. 

So he brings in the Daeva...who cannot attack because Riotbreaker has Crowd Control.

Flexibility Morality doesn't work because you have tokens for built in plusses. Eva struggles to target a marker because you have Blow it to Hell for shadow markers and you proactively vacuum up scrap markers, so much for Lock Away.

Negatives from concealment? Have some power token plusses! Not enough? Since you aren't taxed by LLC, you are free to actually bring in the other upgrades, which is turns out are SUPER LEGIT. Ignore Cover/Concealment/Friendly Fire on guns? Sure thing! Ignore Hazardous terrain and shockwaves and pulses, AND get to pop a beater over to Ivan's stuff? Fantastic. I'm not usually a Catch Them fan, but all you guns are Rng 8...and Peacekeeper is Mv 4...

So yeah, you still gotta play the schemes and strats right. Ivan isn't just gonna roll over, you'll have to kick him over. But it'll be a game largely dictated on your terms, not his, as you're pulling away all of Ivan's real advantages.

I'm running guardian and riotbreaker ook against Ivan. Makes my higher wp crews not so vulnerable.

[Gaston]

58 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I'm running guardian and riotbreaker ook against Ivan. Makes my higher wp crews not so vulnerable.

Why not just run a low WP crew?

[Maniacal_cackle]

52 minutes ago, Gaston said:

Why not just run a low WP crew?

Low WP without armor gets beaten to death real fast by Ivan

Although to an extent I agree. Coming at it from ressers, but my crew is typically Anna (can't summon), Molly (Can't summon when Anna is near), Dead Rider (stat 7), and a bunch of WP 4-5 models that are mobile enough to avoid instant death. It is a definite option for some crews.

In some ways, the Guardian is a smaller aura Anna (but can protect big bases or size 3 models).

[Gaston]

52 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Low WP without armor gets beaten to death real fast by Ivan

I've had great success with Basse, just drop Reichart for the Peacekeeper. Everything else is WP 5.

[ragnarok14]

Having never played against ivan this may be a noob suggestion, but would a lady j crew with exorcists/jury/lone marshal have game against him? Maybe even add in papa loco for an extra obey target?

[4thstringer]

3 hours ago, Gaston said:

I've had great success with Basse, just drop Reichart for the Peacekeeper. Everything else is WP 5.

It gets a lot uglier if you are running Lucius.   If it weren't for the guardian I shouldn't run Lucius into explorers at all because of Ivan.

[Gaston]

13 hours ago, ragnarok14 said:

Having never played against ivan this may be a noob suggestion, but would a lady j crew with exorcists/jury/lone marshal have game against him? Maybe even add in papa loco for an extra obey target?

Not a noob idea at all! You'll notice the OP swapped into Lady J for his tournament, so def a good idea. The Jury targets WP for damage, which is Umbra's weak stat (they tend to have have Def). Lone Marshal ignores concealment and can autokill a summon, so that's great (also on WP). Instead of Papa Loco I'd specifically look at the Riotbreaker, they both have Blow it to Hell, but that's on a bonus, so you cannot obey it. But the Riot Breaker also brings in Crowd Control with stops Daeva attacks on summon.

[ragnarok14]

13 hours ago, Gaston said:

Not a noob idea at all! You'll notice the OP swapped into Lady J for his tournament, so def a good idea. The Jury targets WP for damage, which is Umbra's weak stat (they tend to have have Def). Lone Marshal ignores concealment and can autokill a summon, so that's great (also on WP). Instead of Papa Loco I'd specifically look at the Riotbreaker, they both have Blow it to Hell, but that's on a bonus, so you cannot obey it. But the Riot Breaker also brings in Crowd Control with stops Daeva attacks on summon.

Ah I thought papa was low enough that he couldn’t summon anything off him and I always forget about blow it to hell being a bonus action.

I guess I meant more that exorcists would be a good pick for the crew not only utilising the summoning damage/auto kill on their guns but making your current target undead means you should be able to melt whatever target you decide to go for (plus create a bunch of suedo execute triggers on all your stuff)

perhaps the judge would be good to bring in then rather than marker removal but again not having play against ivan I’m not aware of how damaging the markers can be if left alone?

all that said Hoffman definitely looks like the pick if you wanna give an ivan player a bad time and would be the more straight forward choice.