Does "Manipulative" against a fatemaster character provoke a flip?

[Tophat Terry]

So I've been looking at Into Nightmares and am looking to play a Woe, I was looking at skills that would be good and figured that Corrupted Innocence would give me some good survivability but after looking into it me and my GM noticed that it seems to be treated like any other challenge flip.

For anyone who doesn't have Into Nightmates Corrupted Innocence is a Woe talent that gives them the Manipulative trait that many enemies like the doppleganger have: When targeted for an attack make a TN 11 Willpower duel or the attack can be changed to any legal target (assumedly including the attacker's allies).

The problem here is that if its made using the flat Willpower AV of the fatemaster character then my character is essenially Immortal against any character with lower than 11 WP AV (Provided legal targets are nearby since I assume they cannot hit themselves) and the skill is completely useless against anything with 11 or higher (Which is kind of enemies I'd want it to protect me from).

Is it actually supposed to work this way and just invalidates low WP enemies provided you have an enemy/ally nearby to put the hit onto. or do I have the flip at half TN rounded up (6) against their AV like in horror duels which gives it a chance of working. and if it is the former would you reccomend using the latter instead.

[Ebb]

I think it is working as intended, you shouldn't forget that FM characters have Fate points. They can use a Fate point to get (+) to a flip, which puts 9 Wp AV in range of the check, and there aren't many FM characters with less than 9.

Besides that, I'm pretty certain that the attack can only be redirected if there is another legal target, so Manipulative isn't always going to help.

[diki]

@ebb So would you not use a flip for it?

Minions only get 1 fate point though right, so if they burn that to be able to try to hit you with 1 attack, every other attack in that combat is going to fail and if they are within 3 they are going to be healing you everytime they fail.

 

[Ebb]

1 hour ago, diki said:

@ebb So would you not use a flip for it?

Minions only get 1 fate point though right, so if they burn that to be able to try to hit you with 1 attack, every other attack in that combat is going to fail and if they are within 3 they are going to be healing you everytime they fail.

 

All true, but it's still a Talent that only applies to the weakest enemies that you encounter, and still only when they outnumber you (or when you don't mind re-targeting them towards your allies).

[Alex Chesterfield]

This talent does seem problematic to me. The idea that it would be a binary pass or fail means you remove some enemies from the game outright. If, as another poster suggested, it only affects a small number of the weakest adversaries, then it wouldn't be enticing enough to players. Adding a +flip to the check doesn't help, because FMCs don't flip cards (so neither do FCs in this case) they're still going to either pass or fail the check automatically.

I feel like the best way to do this talent is to treat it like terrifying and have the FC flip against Wp (or maybe scrutiny). I wonder if there will be errata on this. 

[Ebb]

21 hours ago, Alex Chesterfield said:

... it only affects a small number of the weakest adversaries, then it wouldn't be enticing enough to players...

... Adding a +flip to the check doesn't help, because FMCs don't flip cards...

The Manipulative Talent is gained as one part of the Corrupted Innocence Gift Of Darkness, which also gives the character +1 Charm or Cunning; so it's a minor flavor bonus to an already strong Talent.

When a FM character would receive a (+) to any duel that they wouldn't normally flip, they gain +2 to their AV.