Unleashing the beast - first impressions of Neverborn Marcus.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, I've managed to get some games in with Neverborn Marcus, and I regret ever betraying the faction. It is one of the most fun crews I've played, and it feels extremely potent. It is early days, of course, but I'm in love.

Here's the list I'm running so far:

• Marcus & Jackalope
• Cojo w/ inhuman reflexes
• Myranda w/ inhuman reflexes
• Cerberus
• Order initiate w/ ancient pact
• Order initiate w/ ancient pact

Feels extremely solid, but I feel like Cojo and both IRs are optional, freeing up 14 stones (probably two of Scorpius, Bandersnatch, and Adze, though I don't like hiring Bandersnatch as much because it removes an option for Myranda).

Here's some of my thoughts on why the crew is so awesome, focusing on the advantages of Neverborn.

Order Initiates & Ancient Pact

This is probably one of the biggest ones to me. I often rate Ancient Pact as one of the best upgrades in the game.

Granted, as a card-draw + activation control master, the upgrade seems basically custom made for me, but getting a crew where you can fit two ancient pacts is major upside. It is even more powerful in a Marcus crew, where winning initiative can mean TWO full activations before your opponent responds.

And the crew doesn't suffer for it - on the contrary, having a reason to fit in two order initiates is just fantastic. Cerberus really has places to be, and I'm not sure I want Ancient Pact on it as badly since it dies more often. But the Initiates with Camoflage are the perfect carriers for the upgrade, drawing two cards during their turn.

This card draw + hanging around Marcus ensures Marcus is powerful at every stage of the game. Initiates are devastating in combat, so having some around that Marcus can reposition, charge with, or even accomplice into is just wild.

And to top it all off, they can have a built in heal on their attack. Just super, super solid models and I'm glad the crew has an excuse to run the full two. I imagine it is a bit harder to justify 2 in an Arcanist build.

Myranda and the Neverborn beasts.

Myranda is my favourite thing about the crew, to be honest. I never have an activation with her that feels trivial. On the contrary, I often wish I could transfer AP to her, as she is so impactful with everything she does.

She is a super mobile healer (that can accomplice into others to ensure they live to make use of the healing). But I rarely pull this off as she is so busy.

She's an excellent scheme runner, since she cannot be engaged thanks to her wild shape (technically you can do it in some situations, but if she has inhuman reflexes she can shift into a Rougarou and just charge out of combat).

If I want to do burst damage with an enormous threat range, doing 6 damage with Rougarou is pretty trivial. Horns on a Rougarou is just so good! Also a good form defensively if you know you're going to get hit but need to rely on hard to wound to prevent them from hitting too hard (such as when you're in butterfly jump mode and they only get one hit).

If I want to do gatling gun fire at close range, transforming into Bandersnatch delivers that. Which is the big reason I'm hesitant to hire the Bandersnatch, since it closes out an option for Myranda.

Adze offers some utility I haven't quite figured out how to use as a transform yet (although hiring it seems very appealing). I've also not used a Grootslang yet, but it offers some clear advantages in some situations. Same goes for the smaller stuff like Nekima's totem or even Wisps, potentially.

Razorspine Rattler is one of my favourites, though. Constriction is a niche ability, but super good when you need it, which is exactly what you want for a shape-shifting option. Unimpeded + deadly pursuit also means it gives good mobility options for Myranda.

And of course, there's a million lists you could build with these models. So far I'm limiting myself to transforming Myranda into them at the right time, and it is absolutely wild.

Inhuman reflexes

I forget about Scamper every time, so I'm not sure what I think of this upgrade yet.

I think it is good, because it essentially gets you one turn ahead on your upgrades and getting Butterfly Jump from Wings is no longer an absolute must... The ping damage is also... Okay, but I prefer single big charges that wipe people out (hitting for 6 in Rougarou form or with Cojo). Cojo can of course charge multiple times in an activation, so once I get the hang of him, it may pay off extremely well.

Just waiting until I know what I'm doing to judge this one.

Small Cache

A lot of Arcanist lists I see run with a cache of even 10 stones! They just have to feed an endless amount of stones into their cerberus to keep them alive and useful. One thing I love about Neverborn Marcus is that you can get so much done with so few stones. I love that the Cerberus is so useful, yet so expendable.

 

Well, that's it for now! I just wanted to share some of my enthusiasm and why I think the crew is awesome. I'm nowhere close to playing the crew at a high level, but I imagine in a hundred games or so I'll be a force to be reckoned with 😜

What do you think? Do you think I've got Neverborn Marcus all wrong, and there's some better way to play him?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Although thinking about it, swapping Cojo for 2 beasts messes up the chimeramancy's on turn 1... it feels really good to do Cerberus, Cojo, Jackalope, and then 2 for Myranda. Merits testing for sure, but perhaps the answer is to have a beast + a versatile/OOK model... BBS + Scorpius might be a good combo, for example.

[Azahul]

I think you've hit on a lot of good points there. Neverborn Marcus is something I get to see in action a lot locally. The small cache thing in particular wrings true, I think the usual cache size I see is 1-3 stones, and half the time they go down to zero Turn 1 just buying quick reflexes triggers.

 

Myranda I agree is an absolute virtuoso of a model in a good player's hands, adapting to whatever the game situation is. I see her turn into an Adze pretty frequently on Turn 1/early Turn 2 and get used with Paul to pressure opponents into committing to fighting the table on Marcus's terms, since Marcus's mobility still doesn't mean he wants to dive his models in against hard hitting crews. A lure and some gunfire can string an opponent out in a way that is easier for Marcus to adapt to. Usually I see the Bandersnatch be hired, but it will typically die around Turn 2/3 opening it up as a shapeshift option for Myranda again.

[extremor]

My mvp go to for Myranda is adze. With build in puncture, mv 7 and flight he is extremely mobile and opponents only can stop that by surrounding Myranda which is hard to accomplish and wasting AP so they are welcome... but I’ve also transformed into rougarou and groot as both are awesome pics in the right situation but have never considered IR on Myranda...

I really like to use groot a lot since he is mobile, tanky (with armor) has 2“ engagement and the opponent has to decide whether to commit models to lair markers or let groot do his thing. Both bad options. So I hire groot and if  he dies I can still transform Myranda into groot if needed. 
 

try him, maybe he also suits your style!

 

as to your experience:

I also love dubble AP for Initiative reasons. As mentioned in the other thread I find dubble activation before opponents can respond is my way to go with Marcus.

I have used IR on initiates only and that combo rocks. With Myranda transforming into minions I can see the potential as well. 

In my last game I didn’t play cojo or Cerberus. I find em both squishy and expensive so I wanted to try something else. Groot and scorpius have led me to a different path playing Marcus and with that I will use caches of 6 ss if possible. I want 5-6 upgrades first turn. 
 

I really like your „core“: Myranda with IR and 2 OI with AP. 
 

have fun playing 

[extremor]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

and then 2 for Myranda.

Referring to her bonus action, right? Marcus can’t dubble chimerancy on a model. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, extremor said:

My mvp go to for Myranda is adze. With build in puncture, mv 7 and flight he is extremely mobile and opponents only can stop that by surrounding Myranda which is hard to accomplish and wasting AP so they are welcome... but I’ve also transformed into rougarou and groot as both are awesome pics in the right situation but have never considered IR on Myranda...

I've heard good things about Adze, so need to experiment with it more for sure.

6 minutes ago, extremor said:

I really like to use groot a lot since he is mobile, tanky (with armor) has 2“ engagement and the opponent has to decide whether to commit models to lair markers or let groot do his thing. Both bad options. So I hire groot and if  he dies I can still transform Myranda into groot if needed. 

Grootslang does look like he has some serious upsides over Cojo (one of the big ones being that he is 2 stones less). 2/4/5 isn't *that* different from 2/4/6. And the ability so self heal is pretty sweet, AND 2" engagement range is the main thing I am annoyed that cojo doesn't have. So 100% putting this on my list of things to try.

Cojo also has the double focus bonus action which is pretty big (not to mention really useful triggers), but I imagine Grootslang is worth testing for sure.

11 minutes ago, extremor said:

I have used IR on initiates only and that combo rocks. With Myranda transforming into minions I can see the potential as well. 

I've seen this and will likely try it, but I find Initiates are a bit too squishy for a combat upgrade (if I send them running into danger, they'll die. I prefer to just keep dancing away from danger). But maybe I'm being too precious with them xD

12 minutes ago, extremor said:

In my last game I didn’t play cojo or Cerberus. I find em both squishy and expensive so I wanted to try something else. Groot and scorpius have led me to a different path playing Marcus and with that I will use caches of 6 ss if possible. I want 5-6 upgrades first turn. 

I find a single Cerberus is an amazing scheme runner, especially into something like Symbols where you can avoid the fight. Haven't tried it on Break the Line yet. And then often there'll come a time when I happen to have two high masks in hand, and then Cerberus swaps to kill-mode.

Sure, it dies after it charges in, but if it gets 4 attacks in for 12 damage total, it has done its duty and is allowed to leave the battlefield xD

Do you not find that your upgrades get 'stuck' a bit when you pop out 5-6 first turn? I find with the card draw I can easily get at least one 4+ of masks, but am willing to stone for a second. I'm hesitant to also use Marcus' third AP, but maybe I should just do it xD What's a list look like for you?

1 minute ago, extremor said:

Referring to her bonus action, right? Marcus can’t dubble chimerancy on a model. 

Yeah, she activates and puts on an upgrade while she has none, then Marcus does it

[Maniacal_cackle]

I just realised Rougarou might be worth considering as well. A bit behind the Grootslang in terms of health and engagement range, but has hard to wound and can charge while engaged (with IR).

A Rougarou with IR & armor & horns would be a pretty serious beatstick.

Perhaps something to pull out in those slower games.

[extremor]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Do you not find that your upgrades get 'stuck' a bit when you pop out 5-6 first turn?

Depends on the list. With OI, Myranda, Cerberus and cojo I was always using adaptive evolution and swap upgrades. 

 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

seen this and will likely try it, but I find Initiates are a bit too squishy for a combat upgrade (if I send them running into danger, they'll die. I prefer to just keep dancing away from danger). But maybe I'm being too precious with them xD

Only on paper. With IR, wings and horns they charge quite hard and use adaptive evolution twice. afterwards may use his free action for armor if able. Otherwise scamper and butterfly jump keep em safe for a while and then comes Myranda. And after he kills a keypiece he may as well die...

 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I've heard good things about Adze, so need to experiment with it more for sure.

2 hours ago, extremor said:

I have never actually hired him. Just a very nice tech to have Myranda transforming into...

[Maniacal_cackle]

Tried a Slate Ridge Mauler in place of Cerberus for leylines (with Roadhouse who was kind enough to give me a game). He played Dreamer.

It did not feel great. Every turn I was having to dedicate considerable resources to figuring out how to get the slate ridge mauler into position. Cerberus is soooooo much better, as it just does its thing without support. In leylines it has been suggested I try a rattler, and I likely will (or use some order initiate shenanigans).

Cojo ate full health Teddy in a single activation after Myranda moved him forward and then accompliced into him. I still rate Cojo, but am tinkering to find the correct point. However, since his main upside is "2/4/6 damage track with positives to damage flip", I do wonder if I can swap out something else. However, the willpower 7 is pretty much the keyword's only answer to terrifying, so he seemed pretty much a must. Roadhouse and I remain divided on the model xD I think I needed to play its late game better.

Ultimately, Cojo being able to give himself focus could possibly be replaced by like a Rougarou + Black Blood Shaman, so I still have access to plenty of positive flips in the crew. As long as WP isn't an important stat xD

Myranda didn't really get much done in terms of attacking stuff, so I definitely felt like I was spinning my wheels a bit - protected, serene countenance, disguised, and loads of models around definitely was a tricky thing for my build to deal with.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, and Roadhouse's scepticism of order initiates definitely has me thinking. Although I think they might be fine in my original list, they were quite bad in the Mauler list.

I think I might try dropping one initiate and an inhuman reflexes and use those ten stones for Cerberus with AP.

[Raising]

the thing with the initiates is thst they can eat two upgrades a turn and recover one(a defensive one preferibly) if paired one with the other they can double chimera strike or healing. this atacks are hand wise cheap(positive flip.stst6. only looking for weak damage) having the jakalope (armor is best upgrade for him) arround help with the mutation count and preventing charge lines to your initiates(that should survive with wings armor and having miranda to heal them).

A titania model can be taken down in one turn even burning thru stones.

 

also since you aren't using much of your hand you have it to defend.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Raising said:

the thing with the initiates is thst they can eat two upgrades a turn and recover one(a defensive one preferibly) if paired one with the other they can double chimera strike or healing. this atacks are hand wise cheap(positive flip.stst6. only looking for weak damage) having the jakalope (armor is best upgrade for him) arround help with the mutation count and preventing charge lines to your initiates(that should survive with wings armor and having miranda to heal them).

A titania model can be taken down in one turn even burning thru stones.

 

also since you aren't using much of your hand you have it to defend.

My limited experience with initiates is they are excellent damage dealers, card drawers, and survivors.

The issue arises when you don't need them damaging stuff. Then they're just a durable card draw engine.

A Cerberus is a superior scheme runner (although the initiates work okay if Marcus has spare AP to zip them around).

Youll get no argument from me that they absolutely destroy in combat though. Can't wait to try them in public enemies xD

[extremor]

I like OI since they are quite flexible and I always hire one. If I don’t need killing they can also use their call of the wild to safe Myranda or Marcus AP and move up the big ones like cojo, mauler, rougarou...the OI mostly stays in the middle of the board to act where needed.

as to all the 7-8ss minions: I consider em to be a Toolbox for strat and schemes and opponent. For several games I considered cojo, Myranda, one Cerberus one OI and one WotW my core... right now I am moving away from that and trying new ways. 

[Raising]

as extremor said. OI can move arround other beasts(including a transformed miranda or its partner). 

so. they can be supported tl do damage or they can support others to scheme(or whatever). the amount of ap you can transfer on this crew is brutal 

 

I remember when i wasent impresed with them to the point of not deploying them. now i cant create a list without 2 of them. the thrid one isnt a bad investment neither. it start in a suport role(no upgrade from marcus itself) then transition to beater on 3rd 4th turn.

 

As an ap transfer. you can move two beast a turn. the first try with a positive flip and a second having already an extra card for it. being pushed forward by marcus bonus action.

not always mobility is the key. is plain stupid how far and fast you can reposition a group of models

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, Raising said:

as extremor said. OI can move arround other beasts(including a transformed miranda or its partner). 

so. they can be supported tl do damage or they can support others to scheme(or whatever). the amount of ap you can transfer on this crew is brutal 

 

I remember when i wasent impresed with them to the point of not deploying them. now i cant create a list without 2 of them. the thrid one isnt a bad investment neither. it start in a suport role(no upgrade from marcus itself) then transition to beater on 3rd 4th turn.

 

As an ap transfer. you can move two beast a turn. the first try with a positive flip and a second having already an extra card for it. being pushed forward by marcus bonus action.

not always mobility is the key. is plain stupid how far and fast you can reposition a group of models

I always struggle to move myranda around. By the time she goes beast mode, she outpaces the entire crew.

But maybe I should bubble more and give this a go!

[Raising]

i think a diagram for attacks reach and maneuvers is due. ill do something this week.

As a rule of thumb having OI next to marcus(a couple of inches ahead) gives you a full efficiency attack up to 11" away from marcus. so getting closer than that doesnt give you any advantage

[Maniacal_cackle]

Although one tragic thing I was reminded of is that if Marcus commands someone to charge, they can't declare triggers. So the order initiate charge is significantly weaker

[Maniacal_cackle]

Played a game against Nellie today, losing 6-5 (though was quite sloppy by the end of the game xD).

Tried one order initiate, one cererbus, scorpius, myranda, cojo.

Definitely felt a lot better only having one initiate. The lack of card draw was a bit annoying, but was fine. Going from Initiate (provides two cards) to cerberus (eats a card, gains a card) is a big drop.

I'm not sure how necessary the scorpius was. It deleted a few models, but so could a few other options. That armor 2 did just offer a remarkably strong tank, though. So it did a fair bit of work between soaking hits and hitting things. Creep along for the extra AP is also very sweet.

Myranda feels a bit awkward at times. Her versatility is excellent, and the accomplice is perfect for deleting models off the board. I just sometimes struggle to convert her to points, as she is a 9 stone model with only 2 ap (usually). Probably need to tinker the rest of the crew to get more of a feel for when I want her.

I suspect she'll be really good in double cerberus builds. I also am not sure about having her and Cojo, since they both fill essentially the exact same role, damage-wise. Cojo is a lot more consistent on the damage front (and can be accomplice-ed or hit by the other beast only abilities).

[Raising]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Although one tragic thing I was reminded of is that if Marcus commands someone to charge, they can't declare triggers. So the order initiate charge is significantly weaker

thats why i dont overcharge (charge with the first one so is in position for the chimera strike of the other)with them. and instead acomplice the second OI.

 

Cojo is better for damage and moving marcus(also 10" is a bigger movement without TN). but doesnt have myranda flexibility: lure,built int punture or onslaught,push + slow at 8", engage with range 2". is not an easy decision. myranda heal is quite relevant. its acomplice is relevant too.

 

The thing with OI i like is that you can burn two upgrades a turn(ofensively) and still end theyr activation with a defensive one that prevent them from dying. Thats not posible with any other model.

 

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah, myranda just does so much. Will have to think.

Another thing that occurs is I need to make use of Grootslang more. Often I find myself thinking I want CC, not damage. At times like that, I should just go Grootslang. If it engages something and that something disengages, they get slow when the attack lands 😂

Grootslang + inhuman reflexes+ armor (and maybe + camo) sounds like a nightmare to deal with. Possibly wings for movement and butterfly jump, but inhuman reflexes covers both those things as well..

[MrPieChee]

Would you not consider a slate ridge for the same role? It's got two ways of healing, can remove mutation upgrades if needed, and can make the use of the minion part of inhuman reflexes.

I generally don't see much love for them, and haven't tried them myself, but I don't have grootslang and do have two maulers!

Grootslang seems to have more utility too me, but is more squishy if not careful (although all is relative, since 10 hp for 8 stones is pretty good!)

 

Would you say that Marcus has got a lot better with GG2? Prior to this thread, most of what I've read on this forum has been cries for Marcus/chimera to get a buff! (And that molemen suck!)

[Maniacal_cackle]

14 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

Would you not consider a slate ridge for the same role? It's got two ways of healing, can remove mutation upgrades if needed, and can make the use of the minion part of inhuman reflexes.

I generally don't see much love for them, and haven't tried them myself, but I don't have grootslang and do have two maulers!

Grootslang seems to have more utility too me, but is more squishy if not careful (although all is relative, since 10 hp for 8 stones is pretty good!)

 

Would you say that Marcus has got a lot better with GG2? Prior to this thread, most of what I've read on this forum has been cries for Marcus/chimera to get a buff! (And that molemen suck!)

I started playing Neverborn Marcus 1-2 weeks ago, so I'm not sure! 

GG2 does seem kind to him in a lot of ways, but I do wonder if Neverborn Marcus in particular is good at the kill-y pools, but not sure.

As for the slate ridge maulers, interesting point! However, without the slow, I think they don't offer the same control opportunities? Whereas grootslang has it built in on one attack and a trigger on the other.

I initially thought mauler would be good for leylines, but I found it too slow in my last run.

[extremor]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'm not sure how necessary the scorpius was. It deleted a few models, but so could a few other options. That armor 2 did just offer a remarkably strong tank, though. So it did a fair bit of work between soaking hits and hitting things. Creep along for the extra AP is also very sweet.

Scorpius is also a very Good huntsman for henchmen and masters. His neurotoxin sometimes has huuuge impact. 
 

In my games Myranda rarely has the same role as cojo. To me her main purpose is enabling the killing strikes if the opponent leaves a Model exposed, healing my „anvil“, providing plusflips at the center and turn 4/5 turning into adze or groot to deny or score... cojo is a devastating damage dealer and thread. Cojo rarely survived a game while Myranda often survives a game. Or dies turn 5... But I guess that is Marcus - a very flexible master with lots of ways to be played...

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, extremor said:

Scorpius is also a very Good huntsman for henchmen and masters. His neurotoxin sometimes has huuuge impact. 
 

In my games Myranda rarely has the same role as cojo. To me her main purpose is enabling the killing strikes if the opponent leaves a Model exposed, healing my „anvil“, providing plusflips at the center and turn 4/5 turning into adze or groot to deny or score... cojo is a devastating damage dealer and thread. Cojo rarely survived a game while Myranda often survives a game. Or dies turn 5... But I guess that is Marcus - a very flexible master with lots of ways to be played...

For neurotoxins, I found them a bit unnecessary. I was killing models even through soulstones xD

For myranda damage wise, she has the exact same capabilities except has flay instead of adaptive evolution (when she is a Rougarou), but yeah maybe I should focus on her support role more. Oh, and she can't bonus for focus which sometimes comes up.

[extremor]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For neurotoxins, I found them a bit unnecessary. I was killing models even through soulstones xD

For myranda damage wise, she has the exact same capabilities except has flay instead of adaptive evolution (when she is a Rougarou), but yeah maybe I should focus on her support role more. Oh, and she can't bonus for focus which sometimes comes up.

Yes I totally agree. @Ogid once convinced me that NVB Marcus is less about killing and more about spreading out, scoring and using the extreme mobility and flexibility. Before I focused on killing while building crews and playing. Since then my builds changed and the usage of Myranda changed. 
 

BUT: right now I think I know that Marcus is both: a master to be mobile and score easily and a master that can kill keypieces easily if set up correctly. I use different builds and don’t have a „Core“ because Marcus adapts to opponents faction, strat and schemes. I use to struggle vs rezzer a lot because of h2w and after I changed my playstyle and builds against them it got way easier. 
 

long story short: If Myranda works for you that way it’s great. If you get to the point where Marcus doesn’t perform well it may be time for a change of play. It ain’t cause Marcus sucks but because he has so many options and it is hard to choose the fitting one for opponents, strat, schemes. At least that’s what I think. But then again I haven’t played any tournaments with Marcus *sad*