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Horo and damaged assets


Metalhed
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Horomotangi’s super heated claws state that any assets damaged during the action are discarded. 
 

The question is on the timing of this. Can the defending player damage the asset and also scrap it before it gets discarded?

 

I can see both arguments to this. 
 

View 1 - the asset is immediately discarded

There don’t seem to be clear rules on the timing of a discard effect. FAQ35 on fast regeneration and the Gorysche indicates that effects can interrupt the damage phase. Under this view the super heated claw would interrupt the damage step and remove the asset as soon as it is damaged.

 

View 2 - complete the damage process 

Under this view you follow all the steps on super heated claws in order. Do the damage (let’s say 3) the defender then gets to resolve the damage prevention process as normal, let’s assume they damage an asset for two, as it’s still the damage resolution process they can scrap it for 1. Only then does the next part of super heated claws kick in and there is no asset left to discard.

Following view 1 for that example could result in a dead model if there was only a single asset left.

 

When I first read the card I’d assumed view 1, but can now see both views. Think this really needs an FAQ for a clear answer. Similarly I think a clear definition of discard (with timing rules) would be super helpful.

 

 

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So since the comparison is between Superheated Claws and Fast Healing, lets just get the wording here first:

  • Superheated Claws: Strength 4, Piercing.  Target discards any Assets that flip during this Action.
  • When you would flip an Asset to reduce damage, you may first flip the top two cards of your Fate Deck (which may not be Cheated).  If any of the flipped cards are a ram, the Asset is not flipped but the damage is still reduced by the Asset's Disable value.

The Fast Healing FAQ is:

  • 35. If a Goryshche would prevent an Asset from flipping using the Fast Healing Ability on its Fast Regeneration Asset, can it then Disable that same Asset to reduce the damage a second time?  Yes.

Now IMO the most important part of the rulebook here is the first sentence in Resolve Action's step Resolve Effects:

  • Resolve the Action's effects as listed in its text.

Based on that, Superheated Claws has two steps to it separated into the two sentences (resolve one sentence, then resolve the second sentence).  So by that, option 2 is right.

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On 5/24/2021 at 11:02 PM, retnab said:
  • Resolve the Action's effects as listed in its text.

Based on that, Superheated Claws has two steps to it separated into the two sentences (resolve one sentence, then resolve the second sentence).  So by that, option 2 is right.

I am confused about what part of this would lead you to conclude that you wouldn't follow the text that says "target discards any assets that flip during this action". You have to flip the asset as part of the disable effect, so you have flipped an asset during this action, therefore you would discard it, per the text of Superheated Claws.  Why would that not immediately trigger the effect listed in the text that would state you discard the asset. You can't even elect to use the scrap effect until you flip the card, since all text on the face down side is ignored.  

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7 hours ago, Stadon said:

I am confused about what part of this would lead you to conclude that you wouldn't follow the text that says "target discards any assets that flip during this action". You have to flip the asset as part of the disable effect, so you have flipped an asset during this action, therefore you would discard it, per the text of Superheated Claws.  Why would that not immediately trigger the effect listed in the text that would state you discard the asset. You can't even elect to use the scrap effect until you flip the card, since all text on the face down side is ignored.  

I assume (And my TOS rules are rusty so this may well be wrong) that the assumption is until the damage is resolved you won't get to the next part of the action. So if you flip the asset but there is still damage then you are still in the damage resolving section, so you can then scrap the asset to reduce damage. 

The FAQ says

Core 19. Can a unit Disable and Scrap an Asset at the same time to reduce the damage it suffers by both the Asset’s Disable and Scrap Value?

a. Yes

Not conclusive, but I can see the Superheated claws reading as an effect that happens at the end of the action, not an as it happens. That may well be because I'm much more used to Malifaux wording. 

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2 hours ago, Adran said:

I assume (And my TOS rules are rusty so this may well be wrong) that the assumption is until the damage is resolved you won't get to the next part of the action. So if you flip the asset but there is still damage then you are still in the damage resolving section, so you can then scrap the asset to reduce damage. 

Core 19. Can a unit Disable and Scrap an Asset at the same time to reduce the damage it suffers by both the Asset’s Disable and Scrap Value?

a. Yes

Not conclusive, but I can see the Superheated claws reading as an effect that happens at the end of the action, not an as it happens. That may well be because I'm much more used to Malifaux wording. 

There's no "next part of the action" on superheated claws, there's just a conditional (I won't say "triggered" because that's too close to a defined game term) effect. There is no instruction for the timing on that resolution other than "as listed in text" and the conditional window for superheated claws is "during this action", which covers the window from the declaration to resolution.  If you flip an asset in that window, you should activate that effect, per the text of the card.

I have seen that there is a uninterruptable "damage resolution" step, but can't actually find a rules basis for the concept.  Damage reduction is a bunch of independent card effects individually and sequentially chosen.  You don't make all of your damage mitigation decisions simultaneously, because otherwise the disable then scrap rule explicitly allowed in the FAQ wouldn't work, as you don't actually have access to the scrap ability until you flip the card and nothing states that other effects can't activate as a result of decisions made during the damage reduction process. Even if there is zero time between the disable decision and the scrap decision, you have flipped an asset, activating the superheated claws text (because an asset is flipped during the action) and now you have two simultaneous effects and the rules state that the attacker gets to decide the order of resolution there.  

It does look like you are reading wacky Malifaux trigger timing into TOS :) I would not recommend that because Malifaux trigger timing is THE WORST. Love the game to death, but hot dang are the trigger timings nonsensical.  

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It seems more likely to me that you would discard the asset as soon as you flip it, so you wouldn’t have a chance to scrap it after disabling it.

If you had three assets that you wanted to disable, you wouldn’t wait until the damage was resolved to discard them.

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