Best Totems in the game

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Just got to it. Point for point it's probably one of the best models in the game. Up there with Luna. 

Without a crew to support, it could be a 3ss Rambo with Assault Shield, Leaps and Rocket Launches. 

The Armory ability doesn't say other Freikrops.

Turn 1, attach Rocket Boots and Leap, discard a card to attach Rocket Launcher and shoot, discard another to for Assault Shield. If they get close while trying to stop your rampage when Assault Shield falls off you can attach Grenade belt for Explosive demise 4. 😎

That... Is a lot of discard for a temporary payoff 😜

But yeah, leaping Samurai sound good for example.

[Thatguy]

50 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That... Is a lot of discard for a temporary payoff 😜

At that point the Trunk is the Master. Everyone else is just support.

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That... Is a lot of discard for a temporary payoff 😜

But yeah, leaping Samurai sound good for example.

Just add Yannic and it's all card draw!

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

IMO, henchmen should have gotten free emissaries as totems to maintain the "roughly 20 stones of models for leader + totem" vibe.

This mindset always seems to miss the leader ability that Henchmen have, to gain a 3rd AP.

Now you can judge it that the model is taking 150% of the actions it was before(although bonus actions and other abilities do change this, but likewise 3 actions on 1 model is often better than 4 actions over 2 models), or you could base  in on the M2e upgrade that you could discard for fast that I almost always bought when I played the right faction, and view 5 extra AP is slightly below 5ss, but on the whole a Henchman as a leader (and effigy) is probably in the the "17+" ss bracket. (which is the bottom end of Master/totem cost. Some henchmen don't reach this, but quite a lot do. Yes, some masters go higher ). 

7 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Shambling Nest- I'd pay 4ss for that in a lot of crews.

Thank you for the list, there is a lot of good thought in there, but this, I'm not sure on.

For 4 ss you basically get an engagement zone. Its got no threat, and its got no mobility (after its been From the shadowed), it is just that engagement zone. There are certainly times when that is going to be useful, but I would think that was a significant minority. Yes, it is tricky to kill, but it doesn't have a reason to kill it without the Cadmus stuff (Primarily the upgrade that means Parasites do anything).

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

This mindset always seems to miss the leader ability that Henchmen have, to gain a 3rd AP.

Now you can judge it that the model is taking 150% of the actions it was before(although bonus actions and other abilities do change this, but likewise 3 actions on 1 model is often better than 4 actions over 2 models), or you could base  in on the M2e upgrade that you could discard for fast that I almost always bought when I played the right faction, and view 5 extra AP is slightly below 5ss, but on the whole a Henchman as a leader (and effigy) is probably in the the "16+" ss bracket. (which is the bottom end of Master/totem cost. Some henchmen don't reach this, r). 

Thank you for the list, there is a lot of good thought in there, but this, I'm not sure on.

For 4 ss you basically get an engagement zone. Its got no threat, and its got no mobility (after its been From the shadowed), it is just that engagement zone. There are certainly times when that is going to be useful, but I would think that was a significant minority. Yes, it is tricky to kill, but it doesn't have a reason to kill it without the Cadmus stuff (Primarily the upgrade that means Parasites do anything).

Great points xD

For the nests, I think the whole point of them being amazingly efficient is that they're free. They get a lot less efficient if you have to spend 8 stones on the pair xD

[Adran]

14 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For the nests, I think the whole point of them being amazingly efficient is that they're free. They get a lot less efficient if you have to spend 8 stones on the pair xD

Thatguys list was about hiring them in other lists, and in fact the quote I put in was that he would pay 4ss for that package in a lot of crews. 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Adran said:

Thatguys list was about hiring them in other lists, and in fact the quote I put in was that he would pay 4ss for that package in a lot of crews. 

 

Oh yeah, I was just trying to elaborate on your point/why Nests aren't worth 4 stones. They're incredible value when they're free, they're not so much when they cost 4 stones.

[Adran]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh yeah, I was just trying to elaborate on your point/why Nests aren't worth 4 stones. They're incredible value when they're free, they're not so much when they cost 4 stones.

I would probably hire them most of the time for 4 stones each if I was playing a cadmus list. The value is in how they interact with the list. 

I mean all totems are good to incredible value for free. (Even though you can find a few niche cases where you may choose not to hire the totem for free). 

[Thatguy]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

For 4 ss you basically get an engagement zone. Its got no threat, and its got no mobility (after its been From the shadowed), it is just that engagement zone.

I stand by what I said. 4ss gets you a model that forces the enemy to work around it. If you have a couple you can just park them in cover or concealment on parts of the board you know they have to get to in order to score. Or you can put them in a position to be locking down models in their deployment zone turn 1, either deploying less agressively or spending AP killing it instead of getting into position or engaging in early game shenanigans.

They wouldn't go in every crew, but a lot of them. They work well with any crew that wins primarily by disruption. It's not a beater but it's one hell of a tarpit for it's cost. 

[Math Mathonwy]

11 hours ago, Thatguy said:

At that point the Trunk is the Master. Everyone else is just support.

[Jesy Blue]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

I mean all totems are good to incredible value for free. (Even though you can find a few niche cases where you may choose not to hire the totem for free). 

I have an all Stealth The First Mate lead crew, but I don't take Lucky Effigy because one non-Stealth model in the crew kept getting got as the only available target.

The choices for that are few and far between, but they do exist.

[Thatguy]

9 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

I have an all Stealth The First Mate lead crew, but I don't take Lucky Effigy because one non-Stealth model in the crew kept getting got as the only available target.

The choices for that are few and far between, but they do exist.

That sounds like a fun list. What do you run and how does it go?

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

That sounds like a fun list. What do you run and how does it go?

Surprise, Motherfucker (Bayou)

Size: 50 - Pool: 1

Leader:

  The First Mate

    Twelve Cups of Coffee

Hires:

  Bayou Gator

  Bayou Gator 2

  Bayou Gator 3

  Silurid

  Silurid 2

  Silurid 3

  Bushwhacker 3

  Bushwhacker 2

 

I only take it vs shooty lists. So far it's undefeated, but the secret is you don't know it's coming; most don't even think it's possible.

[Adran]

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

I have an all Stealth The First Mate lead crew, but I don't take Lucky Effigy because one non-Stealth model in the crew kept getting got as the only available target.

The choices for that are few and far between, but they do exist.

Unless they will gain an advantage for killing the effigy, you are still better off taking it for free I think. ( even if it just hides out of sight of the opponent for most of the game). 

About the only time you I can think of its better not to hire a totem is to stop them putting an evidence token on ikyru. And that's fairly niche relying on you planning on denying markers with the crew whilst sending ikyru at them to delay them. 

 ( there are possibly a few other occasions when it's not worth hiring a free model, but they really are few and far between)

[Morgan Vening]

On 5/12/2021 at 12:12 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

IMO, henchmen should have gotten free emissaries as totems to maintain the "roughly 20 stones of models for leader + totem" vibe.

At the least, either a free Effigy of Fate upgrade, if not just a straight discount on purchasing the Emissary.

That the Effigy precludes you taking the Emissary, means in some crews (Outcasts most obvious), giving up a free Effigy just so you can field the Emissary Turn 1, is just forcing players to make a bad choice (either you're not getting the most out of an Emissary, or you're giving up one of the few advantages of fielding a Henchman).

[Thatguy]

I think Henchman leaders were sort of an after thought. Outside of Henchman Hardcore there isn't a consideration made for Henchman's cost in list building. On top of the normal power imbalance a 10ss Henchman will probably get more out of that extra leader AP than a 7ss one. 

[Adran]

15 hours ago, Thatguy said:

I think Henchman leaders were sort of an after thought. Outside of Henchman Hardcore there isn't a consideration made for Henchman's cost in list building. On top of the normal power imbalance a 10ss Henchman will probably get more out of that extra leader AP than a 7ss one. 

I'm not sure afterthought is how I'd describe it (as as far as I can remember in the beta process they were always allowed to lead), but rather that there was more effort put into them being viable models for their cost, than them being viable leaders. 

I know when I looked at them as leaders it was to try and find if they were brokenly good, because if they were just a bad choice to lead (but still a viable hire), then I didn't think that was a problem, people can choose to make bad choices. I don't know what the Developers actually looked for, but I don't think making sure all henchmen were equal when they were chosen to lead was high on the list. 

[Thatguy]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

I don't think making sure all henchmen were equal when they were chosen to lead was high on the list. 

This is what I meant. 

They're an option, but not one that had much effort put in to it as far as balance goes.

[Jesy Blue]

48 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

This is what I meant. 

They're an option, but not one that had much effort put in to it as far as balance goes.

I've tried several. There are some that are detrimental to take as a leader (Scion of the Void; Yamaziko), some that work like just a slightly toned down version of the master (Taylor; Kang), and some that are a whole new unique play style (Barbaros; The First Mate).

Every master can win, most henchman automatically loose.

[Nagi21]

On 5/14/2021 at 11:28 AM, Thatguy said:

This is what I meant. 

They're an option, but not one that had much effort put in to it as far as balance goes.

I would say Hinamatsu is actually a pretty good leader, if to only have a few tricks on hand to keep in the back pocket.