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Are Katashiro THAT good, or is Nekima THAT bad?!


OhBee86

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During a game of TT Last Blossom vs NB Nephilim, my Katashiro found itself staring down the greatsword-wielding demon Nekima.  It was able to fend off death by giving it a second Flicker token, and then it was my activation.  Knowing my lowly construct wasn't long for this world, I activated it in a seemingly futile attempt to knock off a hit or two from my opponent's Master.

 

Blown by the Wind got me a free attack (which I used my third Flicker token on), and I cheated in a high mask to succeed and trigger another attack.  That got me another attack (you guessed it... Flicker), which tacked on some more damage.  Now I could start using my AP, so I proceeded to attack again and again, using Flicker tokens all the while.  I cheated in another formidable mask to trigger my fifth attack of the activation.  After everything was all said and done, my Katashiro faded out of existence and Nekima was down half her wounds.

 

I understand that luck had a bit to do with it, but triggering 5 attacks in a single activation meant that I had the law of averages on my side.  My free 5ss model was able to go toe-to-toe with the "great" Nekima herself, and leave the lady beast more than a little bloody.  So, I ask you: are Katashiro really good, or does Nekima need some love?

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One thing to keep in mind is that Nekima is so mobile that she chose to risk taking those 5 attacks from the Katashiro.

Also, you typically have 'inhuman reflexes' stapled to her, so once you cheat you would have lost your second attack.

But yeah, Katashiro are pretty good. Nekima is amazing, but requires a huge amount of finesse.

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2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also, you typically have 'inhuman reflexes' stapled to her, so once you cheat you would have lost your second attack.

My opponent wasn't running Inhuman Reflexes on her, but that definitely would've stopped the Katashiro pain train right in its tracks.  I just hope my opponent doesn't see this thread and pick up on that tech...

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3 minutes ago, OhBee86 said:

My opponent wasn't running Inhuman Reflexes on her, but that definitely would've stopped the Katashiro pain train right in its tracks.  I just hope my opponent doesn't see this thread and pick up on that tech...

Or suggest that tech to your opponent and level up both your games!

Nekima is quite fragile, so she uses:

  • Superior positioning (mobility and 2" engagement)
  • Activation control (killing stuff before it activates)
  • Inhuman reflexes
  • Stones to reduce damage
  • Healing

To stay alive. It really takes a lot of work to abuse all those.

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23 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Or suggest that tech to your opponent and level up both your games!

You couldn't be more right!  Would you believe me if I said that was my plan all along?

24 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Nekima is quite fragile, so she uses:

  • Superior positioning (mobility and 2" engagement)
  • Activation control (killing stuff before it activates)
  • Inhuman reflexes
  • Stones to reduce damage
  • Healing

To stay alive. It really takes a lot of work to abuse all those.

I actually helped build the list my opponent was running, but I'll admit my experience with Nekima is limited.  I didn't know what her shortcomings were, so this information is invaluable.  Thank you!  Inhuman Reflexes on Nekima was something we underestimated, but I suspect we'll definitely be seeing it in our next game.  We were so blinded by her damage output that we didn't consider her limited survivability.  I'm actually going to be showing my opponent this, as it will absolutely benefit us both.

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Other than the Katashiro being a (potential) summon, I have no problem with the end result.

Nekima is a 15SS model. A 5SS model being able to reduce her down to about half, with some awesome luck and the use of two high Masks from hand, and at the cost of suiciding that 5SS model, seems like a reasonable outcome that I'd like to see more often.

That's my one ongoing gripe about M3E, is that a comparative cost of low SS models don't tend to be near as effective as a similar expenditure on high SS models. I don't think that it should be directly equivalent (ie, three 5SS models being able to go toe to toe with Nekima, due to their AP advantage in other areas), but having it be closer than it currently is, might make fielding more than one or two cheaper non-specialist models more viable. 

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5 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Other than the Katashiro being a (potential) summon, I have no problem with the end result.

Nekima is a 15SS model. A 5SS model being able to reduce her down to about half, with some awesome luck and the use of two high Masks from hand, and at the cost of suiciding that 5SS model, seems like a reasonable outcome that I'd like to see more often.

I agree, you used 2 high masks to get this result and some good luck. Not to mention the lack of defensive tech mentioned and that your opponent seems to be inexperienced too for what you said.

By the way, not as important, but Nekima's black blood should have killed the katashiro and thus, healed her for 1, right? =D 

 

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7 hours ago, OhBee86 said:

You couldn't be more right!  Would you believe me if I said that was my plan all along?

I actually helped build the list my opponent was running, but I'll admit my experience with Nekima is limited.  I didn't know what her shortcomings were, so this information is invaluable.  Thank you!  Inhuman Reflexes on Nekima was something we underestimated, but I suspect we'll definitely be seeing it in our next game.  We were so blinded by her damage output that we didn't consider her limited survivability.  I'm actually going to be showing my opponent this, as it will absolutely benefit us both.

Nekima is surprisingly hard to play IMO, and is extremely unforgiving - small mistakes punish the Nekima player a lot. If you get a chance, you might also see if you can ever watch some of Kharnage's games on Youtube. He is probably one of the best Nekima players in the world (that we know of).

Although don't watch him playing against Cadmus, he's a bit on tilt those games 😜

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This is what I do with mine, copied from a previous conversation, giving them both Masked Agent:

The other Katashiro charges, which Blade Rushes, then places the first Katashiro using "With Me", which attacks due to "Made to Kill", then the original Katashiro attacks from the charge, then bonus action places and attacks again due to its "Made to Kill". Finally, if there's anything left, the first Katashiro can bonus action place and attack again, or just attack, or if there's nothing left, charge something else and "With Me" The other Katashiro ... there are many options.

But that's just me.

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11 minutes ago, Vessien said:

Do you really find it worth to spend 14SS into that combo? Don't they get taken out fast?

Sounds great, but pretty fragile imo.

It defintely seems like a glass cannon.  Personally, I haven't hired Katashiro into my crew; I prefer to summon them.  I've found that Minako works best with either Misaki (so that I have access to Shang's Arcane Reservoir) or McCabe (who just draws cards.)  Any additional cards gives me a greater chance of getting what I need to summon a Katashiro turn 1.

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2 hours ago, Vessien said:

Do you really find it worth to spend 14SS into that combo? Don't they get taken out fast?

Sounds great, but pretty fragile imo.

Considering I only hire it in Asami, who will summon way more impressive things you'll have to deal with, they run off and become anti-schemer schemers. Against normal schemers and the odd low wound armor 2 anti-schemer, they will reign supreme. 

The other benefit is summoning them again; once an opponent is bitten by the combo, they tend to shy away from wanting to bother with them again, whether they have the upgrade or not.

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12 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Considering I only hire it in Asami, who will summon way more impressive things you'll have to deal with, they run off and become anti-schemer schemers. Against normal schemers and the odd low wound armor 2 anti-schemer, they will reign supreme. 

The other benefit is summoning them again; once an opponent is bitten by the combo, they tend to shy away from wanting to bother with them again, whether they have the upgrade or not.

It is an interesting tactic, thanks for explaining the context!

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On 5/6/2021 at 11:46 PM, OhBee86 said:

During a game of TT Last Blossom vs NB Nephilim, my Katashiro found itself staring down the greatsword-wielding demon Nekima.  It was able to fend off death by giving it a second Flicker token, and then it was my activation.  Knowing my lowly construct wasn't long for this world, I activated it in a seemingly futile attempt to knock off a hit or two from my opponent's Master.

 

Blown by the Wind got me a free attack (which I used my third Flicker token on), and I cheated in a high mask to succeed and trigger another attack.  That got me another attack (you guessed it... Flicker), which tacked on some more damage.  Now I could start using my AP, so I proceeded to attack again and again, using Flicker tokens all the while.  I cheated in another formidable mask to trigger my fifth attack of the activation.  After everything was all said and done, my Katashiro faded out of existence and Nekima was down half her wounds.

 

I understand that luck had a bit to do with it, but triggering 5 attacks in a single activation meant that I had the law of averages on my side.  My free 5ss model was able to go toe-to-toe with the "great" Nekima herself, and leave the lady beast more than a little bloody.  So, I ask you: are Katashiro really good, or does Nekima need some love?

katashiro and minako are very broken

some games i had katashiro made 6 atacks with a lot of dmg and it is easy to make with positives for duel and dmg

just watch at leveticus-he was nerfed because wyrd finally understand that positives from channel was op but whole asami keyword takes positives just for nothing(leveticus suffered 2 dmg for it)

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In answer to the posted question, Katashiro can be that good, but you need to think how many resources you pumped into them. Firstly you survived Nekima who had a +3 on her attack vs your df, and if she got that hit you were restricted to at most 2 hits on Nekima before black blood got you, and if she got Moderate, you were instantly killed. 

Then you needed to hit Nekima at least 3 times to get upto 6 attacks. You are only on matching stats and every time you cheat a card to hit, she gets to draw a card. Yes, you were able to get positives to the attacks and damage, and make multiple attacks because you were sacrificing the model to flicker at the end of the activation anyway. (And if I read the outcome right you actually died to black blood before the flicker would have killed you, but I might be wrong there)

If you spent the flicker on that first free attack, and Nekima cheated to prevent the hit, then you were basically dead at the end of the activation, and may still miss all attacks. 

So your 5 cost model was lucky to get an activation, and was able to do 6 damage to Nekima, before dying without your opponent needing to spend any actions on killing it, and Nekima ought to heal half that damage back up by her next activation (assuming you died to black blood she would have got teach them fear heal). And you spent 2-3 good cards from your hand to do this, and gave Nekima 2 cards drawn. 

And this was done against a player that didn't know what this was capable of. It will be much harder to repeat the outcome against them again. 

When you put it like that, it doesn't seem so bad for Nekima. (I expect your Katashiro was a summon, so it seems less of a cost). Its still good and you got to use a model that is going to die at the end of its activation attacking a model that has the defence of damaging you during your attacks, which didn't matter to you this time because you were going to die.  

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Katashiros are stupidly good. Right now they're a bit worse than before due to the nerf to summons, but they're still probably the best 5ss minion of the game. A leap that doesn't even require to flip a card and gives you a free attack? Bonkers.

Some of the people here talk about the "resource investment" due to those high masks, but they don't even need that. Thanks to the :+flip to attack and damage, they can get the work done, even if they don't hit, making the opponent use a severe from hand it's still great.

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